Al,
All the photos I have seen are of N&W, and VGN 2, or 3
pocket hoppers with bottom doors. No gonds are present. The
unloading was gravity, no dumpers. I wish I knew more about
the RR's that had river barges, and where the coal went. The
B&O had a modest coal to barge facility in Wheeling proper.
Fred Freitas
________________________________
From: "water.kresse@..." <water.kresse@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:07:34 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...
Thanks folks!!!
Actually, it it is Al . . . . . water.kresse address came from the German word for water crest . . . kress.
I presume the N&W coal cars to Wheeling had to be hopper cars . . . . or did they have a rotary dumper for the N&W 90-ton/100-ton gons at the steel mill?
I've seen N&W 90-ton gons and hoppers at the T&OE coal docks in Toledo also. Would the NYC or Pennsy bring those cars up and back to the Maumee River. After 1954 many went to Sandusky I believe.
Al Kresse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Freitas" <prrinvt@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:32:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...
Walt,
The PRR movd 100's of these car to the Wheling steel
mill in Steubenville, OH. Those more knowledgeable than I
confirmed they came from the Columbus area, and returned
the same route. Wish I had seen this in it's prime.
Fred Freitas
____________ _________ _________ __
From: "water.kresse@ comcast.net" <water.kresse@ comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:37:49 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...
Not unusual to see photos with N&W, Virginian, and L&N coal cars in the C&Os Presque Isle yard. Also, you would see both N&W and C&O coal cars at T-T barge loading facilities in Ceredos/Kenova/ Huntington area and Armco Steel in Ashland, KY. C&O and Virginian had interchange points at Deep Water and West Gilbert.
We are guessing that the N&W coal cars came from Columbus via the C&O to Walbridge Yard/Toledo Terminal railroad?
Al Kresse
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles R Yungkurth" <drgwrail@yahoo. com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:52:41 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...
What seems to be overlooked in this discussion of coal movements by rail is that during the steam years over 25% of all coal mined was used for locomotive fuel (I have the figure around here somewhere). Another large percentage waas used for generating electrical power. Quite a few railroads, notably in New England, had no on line mines so all their loco fuel had to be from off line sources.
Another fact is hardly any anthracite coal was burned by the "Anthracite Raods" after about 1920. hence all the bituminous had to be braght in from connecting lines. And while it is true that a few raods sent their own cars off line to be laoded with loco coal, this was not common.
Moody's Steam Railraod Investment Manuals have a lot of interesting statistics on car loading perfromed on line and car loads received, listed by category. For instance, in the 1949 edition which I have on hand it shows the following car loads data:
Bitum Coal Rec'd Bit Coal Orginated Anth Coal Rec'd Anth Coal Orgin
D&H 61,186 0 26,196 76,255
DL&W 54,314 0 19,473 72,828
NH 36,324 0 20,734 0
B&0 220,532 532,424
CV 163,735 (tons) 0 96,332 (tons) 0
It is a pretty safe assumption that the anthracite loads were used for home heating plus some small industries. While these figures don't give the kind of detail we would like, such as how much was used for loco fuel, etc. they certainly indicate a large amount of interchange of coal loads plus movement of non-home road cars of coal.
Might also ponder where all the west bound N&W coal went...surely it was not all used in Columbus and Cleveland... it's western terminus points.
This is a huge subject..... .subject to many model railroader myths plus "surely it must have been" and 'logic says that" thinking. Tony Koester and I have long thaought that a good book on the bituminous coal industry is needed but the subject is so alrge and complex that it is almsot impossible to address it!
Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Dave Nelson <Lake_Muskoka@ att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 9:56:39 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Coal car loading on "home" roads...
water.kresse@ comcast.net wrote:
If you believe their coal marketing literature, the C&O coal going up
to Philly, NYC, Boston, and further into New England typically went
by boat and/or barge intercoastal- wise. Washington/Baltimor e could
see C&O coal cars.
Al Kresse
Walter brings up an important point here -- the water movement of rail
originated coal shipments. What makes it important is not that it occurred
but that the ICC required the railroads to record such transfers as-if the
water movement occurred by railroad. So should you come across commodity
data in an annual report and/or ICC publication you need to know that
tons/carloads of coal delivered to another carrier (marked outbound) and
tons/carloads of coal received from another carrier (marked inbound)... that
said interchange could be using a barge, not a hopper. The same is true
for Iron Ore and possibly for all other commodities shipped this way (e.g.,
lumber from British Columbia to Los Angeles). This rule applied to all
coasts and the Great Lakes as well.
Water movement was cheap as well. IIRC there was a post on the old FCL that
spoke of delivering coal to a Lake Erie facility so it could be moved by
water a whole100 miles and then loaded again in hoppers.
All of this tends to muddy the waters when trying to understand traffic
flows... How much of that coal carried by the B&M was received at a wharf
vs. a rail connection? Very hard to say when all you have is the ICC data.
Dave Nelson
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