Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes + H21b's
proto48er
Bruce -
I AM SORRY!!! I have totally confused the H21b and H21e classes in my two former posts!! I am "eating bitter" as the Chinese say! Defense - I hauled and placed a bunch of 100 lb. flat rocks for several hours yesterday morning in our new patio, worked at the office in the afternoon, and made the nutty posts between picking up and returning my mother-in-law to and from supper! It was a long day, and I did my "research" about four weeks ago when the H21e was first listed on Ebay.
The H21b was a class of only 198 cars converted from H21a's in 1930 and 1943. The conversion involved replacing the 12" channel centersill with a 12" ARA centersill. The spotting feature is in the interior of the car - a flat top on the centersill, with angled sides. The H21a's had a peaked centersill cover inside the cars.
I also screwed up on the ORER info. In January, 1931, H21b's were added to the following H21a series, presumably in the portions that were "sawtooth" and not "shallow" hoppers:
PRR #136731-139821 (1,656 shallow + 1,122 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #173625-180000 (3,516 shallow + 2,746 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #185132-197740 (7,446 shallow + 5,112 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43, this series was expanded to PRR #183000-197740 (13,491 cars);
by 1/44, this series was expanded to PRR #182500-197740 (14,244 cars).
PRR #261461-262000 (377 sawtooth + 161 shallow) no H21e's by 1/48.
PRR #676001-677045 (634 shallow + 336 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #677426-677484 (34 shallow + 23 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #685606-686352 (456 shallow + 266 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #695330-696000 (384 shallow + 200 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #695330-695984 (576 cars).
PRR #700600-700881 (171 shallow + 108 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #706401-706909 (354 shallow + 102 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #707017-707046 (14 shallow + 12 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #714300-714475 (105 shallow + 56 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #714300-714462 (160 cars).
PRR #717118-718000 (541 shallow + 314 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #717118-717979 (844 cars).
PRR #718969-720275 (777 shallow + 306 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #741001-746000 (3,034 shallow + 1,016 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #746456-748100 (1,099 shallow + 476 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #746464-748100 (1,560 cars).
PRR #900219-904000 (1,153 shallow + 748 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #900219-903920 (1,889 cars).
By "H21e's later" in the above, this means that by 1/48, H21e's had been added to that number series. "No H21e's later" means that by 1/48 there were no H21e's in that number series.
I am looking for a photo or car number of an H21b and a photo of an H21e with riveted sides! I can paint an H21b with just knowing a proper number. However, for the H21e I would sure like a photo! I may have corrections or additions to the Parri car.
Thanks for the help! Sorry, Bruce!
A.T. Kott
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I AM SORRY!!! I have totally confused the H21b and H21e classes in my two former posts!! I am "eating bitter" as the Chinese say! Defense - I hauled and placed a bunch of 100 lb. flat rocks for several hours yesterday morning in our new patio, worked at the office in the afternoon, and made the nutty posts between picking up and returning my mother-in-law to and from supper! It was a long day, and I did my "research" about four weeks ago when the H21e was first listed on Ebay.
The H21b was a class of only 198 cars converted from H21a's in 1930 and 1943. The conversion involved replacing the 12" channel centersill with a 12" ARA centersill. The spotting feature is in the interior of the car - a flat top on the centersill, with angled sides. The H21a's had a peaked centersill cover inside the cars.
I also screwed up on the ORER info. In January, 1931, H21b's were added to the following H21a series, presumably in the portions that were "sawtooth" and not "shallow" hoppers:
PRR #136731-139821 (1,656 shallow + 1,122 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #173625-180000 (3,516 shallow + 2,746 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #185132-197740 (7,446 shallow + 5,112 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43, this series was expanded to PRR #183000-197740 (13,491 cars);
by 1/44, this series was expanded to PRR #182500-197740 (14,244 cars).
PRR #261461-262000 (377 sawtooth + 161 shallow) no H21e's by 1/48.
PRR #676001-677045 (634 shallow + 336 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #677426-677484 (34 shallow + 23 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #685606-686352 (456 shallow + 266 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #695330-696000 (384 shallow + 200 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #695330-695984 (576 cars).
PRR #700600-700881 (171 shallow + 108 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #706401-706909 (354 shallow + 102 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #707017-707046 (14 shallow + 12 sawtooth) no H21e's later.
PRR #714300-714475 (105 shallow + 56 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #714300-714462 (160 cars).
PRR #717118-718000 (541 shallow + 314 sawtooth) no H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #717118-717979 (844 cars).
PRR #718969-720275 (777 shallow + 306 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #741001-746000 (3,034 shallow + 1,016 sawtooth) H21e's later.
PRR #746456-748100 (1,099 shallow + 476 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #746464-748100 (1,560 cars).
PRR #900219-904000 (1,153 shallow + 748 sawtooth) H21e's later;
by 1/43 this series became PRR #900219-903920 (1,889 cars).
By "H21e's later" in the above, this means that by 1/48, H21e's had been added to that number series. "No H21e's later" means that by 1/48 there were no H21e's in that number series.
I am looking for a photo or car number of an H21b and a photo of an H21e with riveted sides! I can paint an H21b with just knowing a proper number. However, for the H21e I would sure like a photo! I may have corrections or additions to the Parri car.
Thanks for the help! Sorry, Bruce!
A.T. Kott
--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:41 PM, proto48er wrote:First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORERA.T.,
have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type
from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in
them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931
or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional
numbers were added to the front of several of the number series,
and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they
could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number
series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in
1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in
there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!
Without primary data from the PRR showing that the H21E modifications
were performed in the early 1930s, I'm highly dubious. I tend not to
base my data on model manufacturers web sites ;^) In addition ORER
entries are replete with errors and even if correct, should not be
taken as evidence of the class existing. It is possible that space
was designated in number series for a designed class, without any
cars. The non-existence of these cars is borne out by the subsequent
absence of the H21E class from the ORER. Does "H21E" appear in any
pre 1947 ORER other than the 1933 version? It is certainly not to be
seen anywhere in the 1943 ORER (yet the other contemporary H21
subclasses are present).
Right now, based on the data available, I'll believe Teichmoeller WRT
the installation of the H21E class.
Now, as to whether any members of that class had riveted side stakes,
that is a different issue, as it is possible that some conversions
maintained the rivets. You should have saved that photo!! I have
looked for it and found nothing...
Regards
Bruce
Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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