Re: PRR H21e quad hopper with riveted side stakes + H21b's


Bruce -

There were indeed 8,546 H21e's converted from H21a's, and you are correct that conversions to H21e did not start until 1946! (Kott eats more bitter!) The H21e centersill cover apparently looked very similar to the H21b's cover. However, the H21e's had no internal crossties (the H21b's did, the same as the H21a's), but instead had two pair of curving braces inside to support the car sides.

The Parri H21e (and his very scarce H25a) looks exactly like the photos of PRR #727129 H21e on the website, except that the Parri model's car sides have rivets! I KNOW that SOMEWHERE I have seen a photo of a riveted H21e! Hate to have to remove rivets from a brass car to make it correct! Incidentally, Parri only made (3) H25a hoppers and (21) standard H25's.

Another interesting thing about the H21b is that the PRR "Arrangement of Lettering" dated 12/4/26 and updated occasionally, first lists painting instructions for the H21b on 11/14/1942! At least (17) of the H21b's had been around for twelve years by then! I say 17 cars because the 1/31 ORER lists the H21b in 17 different number series! The H21e was added on 4/26/46.

I am thankful to be a MoPac, M-K-T and T&NO modeler after trying to figure all this PRR stuff out!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@> wrote:

On Aug 17, 2009, at 9:41 PM, proto48er wrote:
First, about ten number series of H21a's in the July, 1933 ORER
have the notation "H21a, H21e" but do not differentiate one type
from the other. These number series have several thousand cars in
them. The H21e notation is not present at all in the January, 1931
or May, 1932 ORER's. Later, starting in about 1946, additional
numbers were added to the front of several of the number series,
and I presume these were also newly converted H21e's, but they
could just as easily have been renumbered H21a's from other number
series. Some other number series had the "H21e" notation added in
1947 that only had "H21a" before. There were also some H21b's in
there, and I have one of them too! No photo for it either!

Without primary data from the PRR showing that the H21E modifications
were performed in the early 1930s, I'm highly dubious. I tend not to
base my data on model manufacturers web sites ;^) In addition ORER
entries are replete with errors and even if correct, should not be
taken as evidence of the class existing. It is possible that space
was designated in number series for a designed class, without any
cars. The non-existence of these cars is borne out by the subsequent
absence of the H21E class from the ORER. Does "H21E" appear in any
pre 1947 ORER other than the 1933 version? It is certainly not to be
seen anywhere in the 1943 ORER (yet the other contemporary H21
subclasses are present).

Right now, based on the data available, I'll believe Teichmoeller WRT
the installation of the H21E class.

Now, as to whether any members of that class had riveted side stakes,
that is a different issue, as it is possible that some conversions
maintained the rivets. You should have saved that photo!! I have
looked for it and found nothing...


Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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