Date   

50' Mill gondolas

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Guys,
Some time ago a magazine published an article on 50' mill gons, like the latest offering from F&C.
Can anyone direct me to said article?
I had a copy and now it's missing.
Thanks,
Pierre Oliver


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Bruce Smith
 

On May 26, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Aley, Jeff A wrote:

I honestly don't understand. Let's say there's a PRR X29 that
arrives on a small SP branch, or at a small town in Iowa.
How would the local crew [on the prototype] know where it is going?
Jeff,

How many industries on the branch receive shipments in random XMs?
It may only be a couple and the brakeman knows that industry 1 gets
cars on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Industry 2 gets them Monday and
Wednesday. Size, construction, and door width might all provide
clues as well.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Aley, Jeff A
 

Sorry, I didn't trim Tony's msg, so my question was unclear. I am referring specifically to the assertion that, "the crew on a local could look down the train (or the switchlist) and be pretty sure where EVERY car was going."

--

I honestly don't understand. Let's say there's a PRR X29 that arrives on a small SP branch, or at a small town in Iowa.
How would the local crew [on the prototype] know where it is going?

I can understand that you can do that with open loads, or with private cars, or cars in leased fleets, but free-running box cars (like a MILW rib-side)?? How would they know?

Regards,

-Jeff


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Aley, Jeff A
 

I honestly don't understand. Let's say there's a PRR X29 that arrives on a small SP branch, or at a small town in Iowa.
How would the local crew [on the prototype] know where it is going?

I can understand that you can do that with open loads, or with private cars, or cars in leased fleets, but free-running box cars (like a MILW rib-side)?? How would they know?

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:00 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Why not model actual train consists?



Clark Propst wrote:
I model one town, so there is a duplication of car routing because
it's an originating/terminating point. Same cars go to the same
places. That's what happens when you build cars from railroad
documentation with specific loads.
And of course for cars in assigned service, this is exactly
what DID happen, for many tank cars and the like.

One of the operators has memorized a few of the car moves. He knows
that if he sees a IC reefer on the layout it has bananas and will be
spotted at the ramp for off loading. Another local layout owner said
he had changed some car card routings and his guy still spotted the
cars at the old locations - Caught in the act : )
My friend Jerry Stewart, who worked for years in Chicago-area
railroading, says that anyone who worked around a yard could glance at
a cut of cars and know what train it was going into; and that the crew
on a local could look down the train (or the switchlist) and be pretty
sure where EVERY car was going. Most of us modelers don't operate
enough on a specific layout to develop this kind of knowledge, but
this guy who "knew where it was going" was entirely prototypical.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Clark Propst
 

I had a couple UP crewman stop over the other day and they said the same thing. Heck, when I was railfanning I noticed the difference between trains round here and the ones running up and down along the Mississippi or on the CNW overland route.

By using railroad information on my terminal layout I can use a car that was on the railroad + - 4 years of the date I model with a load I knew one of my customers would receive or ship.

Example: I bought one of the Sunshine Milw DD 50' ribbed sided box cars on impulse at Naperville. Only to find out there wasn't any on the lists I have. So, I sold it and bought the earlier smooth sided welded DD 50' cars. I numbered it for a car on a list that carried a load of plywood and it is tranferred off the Milw to my online building supply dealer or my lumber yard. Next ops it's returned to the Milw. This car shows up every 2-3 ops, or maybe once every 2-3 months. By now my operators know the car is bound for one of two places.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

My friend Jerry Stewart, who worked for years in Chicago-area
railroading, says that anyone who worked around a yard could glance at
a cut of cars and know what train it was going into; and that the crew
on a local could look down the train (or the switchlist) and be pretty
sure where EVERY car was going. Most of us modelers don't operate
enough on a specific layout to develop this kind of knowledge, but
this guy who "knew where it was going" was entirely prototypical.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:
I model one town, so there is a duplication of car routing because it's an originating/terminating point. Same cars go to the same places. That's what happens when you build cars from railroad documentation with specific loads.
And of course for cars in assigned service, this is exactly what DID happen, for many tank cars and the like.

One of the operators has memorized a few of the car moves. He knows that if he sees a IC reefer on the layout it has bananas and will be spotted at the ramp for off loading. Another local layout owner said he had changed some car card routings and his guy still spotted the cars at the old locations - Caught in the act : )
My friend Jerry Stewart, who worked for years in Chicago-area railroading, says that anyone who worked around a yard could glance at a cut of cars and know what train it was going into; and that the crew on a local could look down the train (or the switchlist) and be pretty sure where EVERY car was going. Most of us modelers don't operate enough on a specific layout to develop this kind of knowledge, but this guy who "knew where it was going" was entirely prototypical.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Corroded hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Kresse wrote:
The C&O published a report in 1923 about Open Hearth vs. Bessemer processed steel relative to crack propagation around rivet holes (unfortunately I can't find it now). Apparently the slower open hearth process got rid of more phos and sulfur and was less notch sensitive. Gondola car bodies had been shearing off their center sills.
Yes, phosphorus is the "Achilles heel" of the Bessemer process, as P is not effectively removed in that process. It's not a matter of "slow," it's a matter of the kind of slags and the resulting chemistry. It's phosphorus which lowers notch sensitivity, if present in too large a quantity. And BTW, if used to refine iron which is naturally low in phosphorus (from the ore), the Bessemer process can produce perfectly okay steel.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Corroded hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Witt wrote:
Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?
I meant really the decade after 1910. Let's be clear: copper- bearing steels for corrosion resistance were NOT new in 1910 or 1920 but date to the late 19th century. HOWEVER, they were not widely promoted or used until the 1920s. They were not heavily promoted for railroad use until the higher-strength alloys like Cor-Ten came along circa 1930. I did not say and did not mean to imply that no one in railroading used copper-bearing steels prior to Cor-Ten.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

One of the operators has memorized a few of the car moves. He knows that if he sees a IC reefer on the layout it has bananas and will be spotted at the ramp for off loading. Another local layout owner said he had changed some car card routings and his guy still spotted the cars at the old locations - Caught in the act : )
I bet that happened on the prototype on rare occaisions. Some switchman would say to himself "I know where that car is going"


Re: Corroded hoppers

water.kresse@...
 

Nope . . . sorry.  They are different steels.  Copper bearing steel is not alloyed like Cor-Ten steel . . . . which are high-strength, low alloy (HSLA) steels.  Copper bearing steels are close to some of the A-?? structural grades used in I-beams, etc. today.  Copper bearing steels are midway between Plain and HSLA in corrosion resistance.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Birkett" <tnbirke@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:46:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers

Copper bearing steel is known by trade names Cor-Ten (USS) and Marai
(Bethlehem, named for a place in Africa where the iron ore is naturally
mixed with copper). It was not the answer to corrosion that it was thought
to be, although there are some studies that show it holds paint better than
plain carbon steel
 
Tom

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers


  

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using
copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "rwitt_2000"
<rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Corroded hoppers

water.kresse@...
 

Jeff,



That N&W info would be very interesting to see.  My best info was that they studied the use of both copper bearing, and later, Cor-Ten (from the C& O's shared tear-down test data) steels . . . . and didn't think they were cost effective.



The C&O published a report in 1923 about Open Hearth vs. Bessemer processed steel relative to crack propagation around rivet holes (unfortunately I can't find it now).  Apparently the slower open hearth process got rid of more phos and sulfur and was less notch sensitive.  Gondola car bodies had been shearing off their center sills.



Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----
From: " traininsp " <Bbear746@ aol .com>
To: STMFC @ yahoogroups .com
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:28:50 AM
Subject: [ STMFC ] Re: Corroded hoppers

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC @ yahoogroups .com, " rwitt _2000" < rwitt _2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson  wrote:
      Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http :// www .archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Tim O'Connor
 

I once impressed a railfan out in western Massachusetts watching an eastbound
Conrail manifest climbing to Washington Summit -- I looked and said it must be
SEFR (Selkirk-Framingham) based on the cars in the consist, and this was confirmed
a couple of minutes later on the scanner. Which isn't to say I'm a genius, but if
you are familiar with a territory, you sometimes learn to identify trains simply
by the cars you see in them.

Tim O'Connor

------------------------------------

One of the operators has memorized a few of the car moves. He knows that if he sees a IC reefer
on the layout it has bananas and will be spotted at the ramp for off loading.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Clark Propst
 

I remember a layout at a train show many, many years ago that was nothing more than plywood topped tables, painted green, and a couple loops of track. They would run a specific train from a train list. I those days most of the cars were Athearn with custom paint jobs. I was a fledgling at the time, but was impressed by what they were trying to do.

I model one town, so there is a duplication of car routing because it's an originating/terminating point. Same cars go to the same places. That's what happens when you build cars from railroad documentation with specific loads. I move commodities, but freight cars. I do try to not use the same cars each session and not all customers are switched each day (ops). I have a packing plant on the layout. That place gets reefers and tank cars that are the same, just different numbers. I use 9 reefers a session, but am up to 18 cars in my roster. That means some cars will only show up every third ops (not all reefers are swapped each session). Sessions are every third Monday night, so about once a month.

One of the operators has memorized a few of the car moves. He knows that if he sees a IC reefer on the layout it has bananas and will be spotted at the ramp for off loading. Another local layout owner said he had changed some car card routings and his guy still spotted the cars at the old locations - Caught in the act : )
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Corroded hoppers

Thomas Birkett
 

Copper bearing steel is known by trade names Cor-Ten (USS) and Marai
(Bethlehem, named for a place in Africa where the iron ore is naturally
mixed with copper). It was not the answer to corrosion that it was thought
to be, although there are some studies that show it holds paint better than
plain carbon steel

Tom

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers




I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using
copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "rwitt_2000"
<rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


Re: Corroded hoppers

Jeff Coleman
 

I don't have the data with me at the moment but the N&W also started using copper bearing steel in the 1920's for gondolas & hoppers in coal service.

Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rwitt_2000@...> wrote:


Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


Re: Reading Box Car

Rich C
 

On the roof, you could also get a Sylvan Hutchins roof.
 
Rich Christie

--- On Wed, 5/25/11, rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Reading Box Car
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 25, 2011, 10:17 AM


 




Al Brown wrote:

Wow, what a beauty! Check out the fishbelly underframe, unusual arch
bar trucks, and Youngstown replacement door.
Looking at the photograph and the drawings again, it appears that this
Reading boxcar also has a replacement roof. It looks like a Hutchins.
For a kit-bash one could cut one from the Accurail reefer if the width
of the cars bodies are similar.

Bob Witt








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Corroded hoppers

rwitt_2000
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
Looking through railroad industry journals such as Railway Age
in the first ten or 15 years of the 20th century will show numerous
articles and letters to the editor about corrosion prevention on steel
car bodies, which of course were then just coming into common usage.
Paint formulas, surface preparation methods, drying times, and other
aspects of the problem were repeatedly discussed. After roughly World
War I, this topic disappears from the literature, and I assume a
consensus had emerged on how best to paint steel cars. This consensus
was NOT on account of copper-bearing steel being introduced to combat
corrosion, because that happened about a decade later.
Tony,

Which do you mean, a decade after WWI or after 1915?

In my reply to the original inquiry I listed the seminal article
published in 1923 by J. J. Tatum Superintendent Car Department of the
B&ORR where the B&O specifies its steel to have not less than 0.20%
copper.

"Reducing the Corrosion in Steel Cars, Steel containing a small
percentage of copper adopted to prevent rapid deterioration, J.J. Tatum,
Superintendent Car Department, Baltimore & Ohio, Railway Mechanical
Engineer, vol. 97, no. 7, July 1923, pp.413-416."

http://www.archive.org/details/railwaymechanica97newyuoft



Bob Witt


Re: Why not model actual train consists? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Armand Premo
 

Elden,While I have a large number of resin cars I do have a fair share of "Stand Ins".Some of these cars with be super detailed by adding new under frames,ladders,brake gear,grab irons and the like.Some will never make it and will be disposed of through trade meets or out right sale.My roster is constantly being upgraded and in somewhat a state of flux.The refining process is on going..I don't want to leave the impression that.I have the ideal.I hope I never reach that stage.As I learn more and new and better cars become available I will continue to add cars.Many of us,myself included,tend to buy cars for our favorite roads even when prototype information doesn't support it.Try as I might I still buy some cars impulsively.I am constantly working on that problem.Discipline.discipline.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:01 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Why not model actual train consists? (UNCLASSIFIED)



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You may be past this point, but given my lack of actual consists, I had to
use photos, limited special reports done on car numbers by location, and
industry data, to develop my fleet. I made sure to include enough cars for
each industry of service, to not have the same cars show up again and again,
unless they were specifically dedicated to that location. Thus, for a
service like coal, I have a lot of hoppers I can create blocks from, and get
a different group every time, as I do for the many tank cars I need at the
coke by-products plants. For Corning Glass, up river, however, they have a
small dedicated fleet of covered hoppers, for their glass sand, and you tend
to see members of that small group repeatedly, as you would in real life.

For my run-throughs, which appear at the back of my layout, and which do not
visit the front or even stop, I have a fleet of kits with molded on detail
(HORRORS), which while I would love to super-detail, I may not live long
enough. Most of these are big strings of loaded hoppers going one way, and
MTYs the other. I change out the motive power and cabins on either end, and
voila, a "new" train.

For my actual set-outs and stuff that gets switched in my face, I have my
super-detailed cars, only about 60 so far, which I enjoy seeing close-up in a
fully detailed scene. The others are just going in and out of staging, so I
don't have much time to focus on them, anyway.

The last group are the "special" cars Tony mentioned, that I rotate out on a
very infrequent basis, because one would only occasionally see them in real
life. They are the depressed center cars with a big transformer or other;
long structural loads, etc. They are kept in a drawer and pulled according
to my "random chance" generator (2 x 10-sided dice and a table of chance
occurrences). This method nicely addresses the randomness of need for a
rebuilt transformer at the power plant, and other chance events.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Armand Premo
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:14 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Not to belabor this issue,but I just checked a whole month of wheel reports
to see what the correlation was with the Twenty Largest railroads.The results
were not really earth shattering.However,while some roads were well
represented some were not in the top twenty for that moth.Other roads not in
the top twenty had many more cars during that month than those on the list..
-If one has a sufficient amount-of data as well as a large-enough roster
modeling actual train consist should no be boring.-- I try to remove most of
the cars used in an op session and replace them with other cars for the next
op session.In betwee I make up the train that will run on the during the next
session.Not seeing the same cars over and over will help to make the process
less boring.Your comments will be appreciated.Armand PremoOriginal Message
-----
From: Jim Betz
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Why not model actual train consists?

Hi,

The flurry of responses has started to wind down. They are
all well thought out and great. Thanks.

So here's an update to my suggestion:

The major 'flaw' in my suggestion is that if you model
specific consists you will end up with ops that are 'boring'
(over time) ... unless you have a fleet that is much larger
than the normal layout. I agree with this.

So what if your -fleet- is modeled based on actual train
consists ... but you don't use those consists for your ops -
or if you do use them duirng ops you only do so on a few
trains or only on "special occasions"?
- Jim

----------------------------------------------------------

Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.891 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3235 - Release Date: 11/03/10
04:36:00



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.891 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3235 - Release Date: 11/03/10 04:36:00


Re: Corroded hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Townsend wrote:
BTW, that 1943 Alcoa ad makes the same point you did regarding thickness: "Aluminum is naturally resistant to corrosion. Its use permits conservative designs, because lightness can be achieved by building with thick sections which give stiffness and sturdiness."
A faintly dishonest comment by Alcoa, because while aluminum has about a third the density of steel, it also has about a third the stiffness of steel. Thus to get the stiffness of a given steel structure while making it of aluminum (other things equal), all parts will be three times as thick and the final result will weigh the same as did the steel. The economy comes if there are sections which can be lighter, such as side sheets (if stakes are stiff enough), or if webs of sills can be lighter, etc., and of course with corrosion resistance.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Corroded hoppers (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

That's very interesting, and may explain the PRR's big move to corrugated
panels (instead) during the early 60's rebuild campaigns for gondolas, but
not for hoppers, which instead were getting big rectangular box top chords,
pre-made welded side sheet replacement panels, and other alternatives. I
haven't seen the correspondence on their thought process on this, however. (I
did find it for coil cars)

After the brief love affair with lightweight box cars, the PRR did a complete
about face, and ordered heavier box cars from the fifties on. One can
actually see the bowed "AAR '44" and earlier design cars, in the photos they
have showing on-line failure, or documentation for rebuilding campaigns.
Instead of messing with side sheets, they went to big, full-length side sill
channels, doorway gussets, and other design flaw corrections, but that, as
they say, is a different subject...

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 2:46 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Corroded hoppers



Gatwood, Elden wrote:
That is about what I expected, since the bulk of PRR correspondence on
the topic of failures, at least post-war for sure, is about things
they believed were engineering issues, not about materials.
There is a much later discussion about . . . Cor-Ten . . . USS was
claiming the same tensile strength, for a thinner sheet, which could
have saved the PRR a lot, in light weight of each car, and hence,
allow greater load weight per car . . .
As railroads also found with stronger and thinner steel in box cars, this is
a structural trap. The weight savings really aren't very big, a few thousand
pounds, and the thinner steel is LESS stiff. The elastic modulus of steel,
which controls stiffness, doesn't vary with strength of the steel, so thinner
material automatically means a loss of stiffness. That in turn makes the
structure of the car more flexible, and accentuates any trend to cracking or
tearing at critical locations.
If you keep the steel sections the same size, stiffness remains constant but
of course there's no weight saving any more. The only way to get greater
stiffness with thinner sections is innovations like corrugated or Dreadnaught
ends instead of flat plate ends, ditto for doors.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history





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