Date   
Re: OMI two dome tank car

Fritz Milhaupt
 

--- In STMFC@..., "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...> wrote:
Overland's ad for this tank car included a prototype photo by H. A.
Garritsen of NIPX #8. The ad was on the back cover of a magazine
which I photocopied. Unfortunately, I don't remember which mag, but
was maybe Rail Model Journal. From the mailing label, looks like it
was the February, 1993 issue.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

This car was one of the ones I'd always meant to ask Arnt Gerritsen about, since he did most of the drafting work for Overland Models back then. Sadly, he passed away in March of this year.

-Fritz Milhaupt
Modeling Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.
http://www.pmhistsoc.org

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Aley, Jeff A
 

The magazine back cover in question (and the tank car ad) can be seen at
http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/107/7814/july-1990-page-80 .


Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of al_brown03
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:46 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car



This photo appears on the back covers of Model Railroading and the NMRA
Bulletin, for July 1990. I could convince myself, though the reproduction isn't good, that the reweigh date is either 7/37 or 7/57. The reporting marks NIPX aren't listed in the ORER for either 1/43 or 1/53.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@...<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>, "brianleppert@..." <brianleppert@...> wrote:




Overland's ad for this tank car included a prototype photo by H. A. Garritsen of NIPX #8. The ad was on the back cover of a magazine which I photocopied. Unfortunately, I don't remember which mag, but was maybe Rail Model Journal. From the mailing label, looks like it was the February, 1993 issue.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

Re: Pennsy Round-roof design issue

Aley, Jeff A
 

The UP once did something like this. In order to clear a special shipment, the roadbed was lowered as the track passed beneath some obstruction (I believe it was a bridge).

Unfortunately, a section gang, not knowing about the shipment, came through and fixed the "dip in the track" before the special came through. Much hilarity ensued.

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy Round-roof design issue


It
has been said that the Lackawanna, one of the major holdouts because
it claimed it couldn't afford to rebuild its tunnels, fixed the
problem in a weekend by taking out the track and ballast in the
tunnels, bulldozing a foot or so off the tunnel floors, and
replacing the track.

Re: OMI two dome tank car

john.allyn@...
 

The suggestion was made way back in this thread that the car maight have been purchased for off-line storage at the company's facilities.  If so, would it have shown up in the ORER?  Of course, if it was used for off-line storage why go to the expense of repainting and relettering?

John B. Allyn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 1:03:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car

 




Ed Sutorik wrote:
I have found cars with reporting marks that don't show up in the
ORER before. I suppose that inclusion in the ORER is/was voluntary
and perhaps even involved giving money to the publisher. Maybe
perhaps.
No, it was NOT voluntary. The car descriptions in the ORER had
official tariff status and each issue was intended to be complete and
accurate for use by car clerks. Yes, of course, errors occurred, but
not because it didn't matter. And cars not listed in the ORER were not
supposed to be in revenue service.
Railroads spent real money collecting information and
organizing it for submission to each ORER issue. They did not pay to
be included. But many copies of each ORER were purchased by railroads
for use by agents and clerks. That's how the ORER made its money.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:35 AM, Larry Sexton wrote:

This discussion caused me to check on one of the recent brass
tankcars I
purchased, an OMI GATX 8,000 gal, 3 dome, insulated tankcar
purportedly
rebuilt in the 1940s. It's a beautiful tankcar and Richard
Hendrickson told
me that it was probably based on a wine tankcar for which he has a
photo.
Not to worry. I know that the Federal government took control of a
number of
wine tankers during WWII for the transportation of industrial
alcohol and a
few other priority liquids in support of the war effort. I don't
recall
which companies received these wine cars, but I seem to remember
that some
went to some of the alcohol manufacturers. I'm just not certain why
one
would use insulated cars for alcohol.
Larry, insulation wasn't necessary for shipments of industrial
alcohol, but what suited the wine cars for this service was that they
were glass lined, which prevented contamination.


Richard Hendrickson

B&O High Car Specials Re: Pennsy Round-roof design issue

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

The publishers of the Official Railway Guide and ORER also published a periodical with clearance diagrams (Railway Line Clearances?) for every rail line in the US. A sample of pages from this publication is in Gregg's Train Shed #26 at reprinted pages 445 and 446 of the 1928 Car Builder's Cyclopedia. It seems to me that the original periodical would be able to answer your question definitively as to which B&O line had the most stringent clearance restrictions.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "boyds1949" <e27ca@...> wrote:

Regarding Sand Patch Tunnel. A good reason for not finding the "North Portal" may be that the direction is east-west. The east portal required a long walk even if you knew where the access roads were.

With that bit of trivia out of the way, I think the clearance problem was on the St. Louis line between Grafton and Parkersburg. The 1947 B&O Freight Working Book had the High Car Section of train 97 going west from Cumberland via Sand Patch to Pittsburgh and then to Benwood (near Wheeling) and to Newark where it was consolidated with 197 to East St. Louis. In 1951 The High Car Section of 97 operated from Cumberland to Willard (again by way of Sand Patch and Pittsburgh)and then to Newark, Cincinatti and East St. Louis.

John King



--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@> wrote:

Richard Hendrickson notes:

Probably the last holdout was the B&O, which dealt with the
tunnel clearance problems on its mainline Sand Patch grade by running
"high car specials" via a longer alternative route through Pittsburgh.
Not so. The real reason is that, on the Sand Patch grade, the tunnel near
Manila has only one entrance. I know because back in 1981 on the day before
ex C&O 614 was to take a train up that grade I went searching for the
northern entrance and it wasn't there. I have always been puzzled about
that, how trains surmounted that ridge...entering the southern tunnel
portal...which I did find...to later appear much farther north. The B&O was
tricky.

Mike Brock

Oh, Mike, that is SO obvious!! You went looking for the northern
"entrance." For that 614 run, there WAS no northern "entrance." It was an
EXIT!!!



Geez, do we have to explain EVERYthing?

SGL





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Re: OMI two dome tank car

O Fenton Wells
 

My guess is that this car carried oil for electrical transformers. In the
mid 1980's I used to drive the skyway (I-90) from Rockford IL through Gary
IN on my way to Detroit and Cleveland and saw a similiar tank car, 2 dome
parked in a large transformer site right off the freeway, WRONG, tollway.
We were back there last week, to get a refil of Chicago dogs and White
Castles; the transformer site is still there with the rail spur but no tank
car.
Fenton Wells
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Jon Miller <atsf@...> wrote:

**


On 6/23/2011 8:15 AM, spsalso wrote:
And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would have a
car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?
Fuel oil generator?????

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
@srrfan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
I don't agree with Tony at all about this. Almost all wine tank cars were insulated but they certainly didn't have heater coils, as you observed in another e-mail, and cars dedicated to wine service were almost always much smaller than 10,000 gal. - the most typical were 6K gal. three, four and six compartment cars.
As I said originally, the car is really too big to be a wine car. At the time I made that suggestion, really only intended as speculation, the heater coils hadn't been mentioned, and as Richard says, the mind boggles to think of wine which could either withstand or NEED heater coils.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Sutorik wrote:
I have found cars with reporting marks that don't show up in the ORER before. I suppose that inclusion in the ORER is/was voluntary and perhaps even involved giving money to the publisher. Maybe perhaps.
No, it was NOT voluntary. The car descriptions in the ORER had official tariff status and each issue was intended to be complete and accurate for use by car clerks. Yes, of course, errors occurred, but not because it didn't matter. And cars not listed in the ORER were not supposed to be in revenue service.
Railroads spent real money collecting information and organizing it for submission to each ORER issue. They did not pay to be included. But many copies of each ORER were purchased by railroads for use by agents and clerks. That's how the ORER made its money.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 23, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Larry Sexton wrote:
This discussion caused me to check on one of the recent brass
tankcars I
purchased, an OMI GATX 8,000 gal, 3 dome, insulated tankcar
purportedly
rebuilt in the 1940s. It's a beautiful tankcar and Richard
Hendrickson told
me that it was probably based on a wine tankcar for which he has a
photo.
Not to worry. I know that the Federal government took control of a
number of
wine tankers during WWII for the transportation of industrial
alcohol and a
few other priority liquids in support of the war effort. I don't
recall
which companies received these wine cars, but I seem to remember
that some
went to some of the alcohol manufacturers. I'm just not certain why
one
would use insulated cars for alcohol.
Larry,

It might have to do with what was viewed as a non-contaminating or
easily cleaned load for the tank car, rather than the need for
insulation per se.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:15 AM, spsalso wrote:

Neither the company nor the reporting mark is listed in my January
1939 ORER (nor in others of mine, from 1926 to 1960), but Northern
Indiana dot-dot-dot does show up after the end of the world (1960)
in my 1965 ORER, apparently with several hundred coal gons.

I have found cars with reporting marks that don't show up in the
ORER before. I suppose that inclusion in the ORER is/was voluntary
and perhaps even involved giving money to the publisher. Maybe
perhaps.
Ed, the ORERs were sometimes a bit tardy in registering additions and
deletions, etc. but all freight cars in revenue service were required
to be listed. That leaves the possibility/likelihood that everyone
seems to have ignored, namely that the car wasn't in revenue service
but had been purchased second hand to store liquids of some sort on-
site and never left the owner's property.

I sure do wonder when the ad photo was taken. And where. 'Cause
the car existed, even if the ORER says it didn't.
No argument there, but what you (and the rest of us on the STMFC
list) need to know is who owned it prior to 1960, and no information
on that has turned up.

And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would
have a car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?
See above.

Thank you all for moving this project of mine forward. With the ad
photo, I can pretty much figure out the "good-enough-for-me"
lettering (though I guess the color might be either white or
yellow--there's a puzzle) and the tank color (with the lack of
graphic enthusiasm exhibited by the owner, I'm going with black).

Also looming (perhaps) is the possibility that an NIPX tank car
would never roll over the rails in my modeling locale.
The odds are strongly against it.

Tony's suggestion of a wine tank car might lead me down the
(possibly horrendous) freelance route.
I don't agree with Tony at all about this. Almost all wine tank cars
were insulated but they certainly didn't have heater coils, as you
observed in another e-mail, and cars dedicated to wine service were
almost always much smaller than 10,000 gal. - the most typical were
6K gal. three, four and six compartment cars.

FWIW (not much), if I owned that model I'd put it on e-bay and sell
it to some bozo who doesn't know or doesn't care about the mystery of
the prototype car's history.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Larry Sexton
 

Bruce, Ed, et all,



I agree that an insulated car would not be needed for either of the fluids I
discussed. However, when utilities bought secondhand tankcars in the 60s and
70s, they based their decisions on availability and cost. Most of the time
the fluid being moved was not even a consideration.



This discussion caused me to check on one of the recent brass tankcars I
purchased, an OMI GATX 8,000 gal, 3 dome, insulated tankcar purportedly
rebuilt in the 1940s. It's a beautiful tankcar and Richard Hendrickson told
me that it was probably based on a wine tankcar for which he has a photo.
Not to worry. I know that the Federal government took control of a number of
wine tankers during WWII for the transportation of industrial alcohol and a
few other priority liquids in support of the war effort. I don't recall
which companies received these wine cars, but I seem to remember that some
went to some of the alcohol manufacturers. I'm just not certain why one
would use insulated cars for alcohol.



Larry Sexton



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
spsalso
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 12:54 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car





"A more likely cargo would have been to carry transformer oils (contain
PCP)when the utilities were having to get rid of them and use more benign
fluids."

This tank car must have been built way before utilities "had to get rid of
them" (although it could have been used for exactly that purpose in later
years, I suppose).

Also, note that the car was insulated. If it brought in fuel for generators,
would that have needed an insulated tank? I see on the end of the tank what
looks like hookups for heating coils, too. I also suspect that the car was
for outbound service; as I would think that for an inbound direction, the
supplier would supply the car. But......

If this car were freelanced into wine service, the use of the heating coils
doesn't bode well for the quality of the wine.

Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: OMI two dome tank car

spsalso
 

"A more likely cargo would have been to carry transformer oils (contain
PCP)when the utilities were having to get rid of them and use more benign
fluids."

This tank car must have been built way before utilities "had to get rid of them" (although it could have been used for exactly that purpose in later years, I suppose).

Also, note that the car was insulated. If it brought in fuel for generators, would that have needed an insulated tank? I see on the end of the tank what looks like hookups for heating coils, too. I also suspect that the car was for outbound service; as I would think that for an inbound direction, the supplier would supply the car. But......

If this car were freelanced into wine service, the use of the heating coils doesn't bode well for the quality of the wine.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 23, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Larry Sexton wrote:

If the tankcar was owned by a utility, the chances are good that it
could
have been used to haul or store diesel fuel for an emergency back-
up diesel.
A more likely cargo would have been to carry transformer oils (contain
PCP)when the utilities were having to get rid of them and use more
benign
fluids.
Larry, folks,

But this cargo would not require an insulated car, right? I suppose
it is possible that they picked up the car cheap and did not care
that it was insulated (I certainly plan to have some insulated cars
carrying crude oil in my WWII tank car trains).

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Larry Sexton
 

If the tankcar was owned by a utility, the chances are good that it could
have been used to haul or store diesel fuel for an emergency back-up diesel.
A more likely cargo would have been to carry transformer oils (contain
PCP)when the utilities were having to get rid of them and use more benign
fluids.



A friend and I once found a large electrical transformer in the middle of an
orange groove in central Florida. The metal tag indicated it came from the
Commonwealth Electrical Company in Illinois. Since it was leaking oil, we
notified the EPA and it became a superfund clean-up site. This was the large
type transformer that usually requires a six axle depressed flatcar to
haul. As far as I know, while there was a great deal of speculation, no one
ever proved how it arrived in the orange groove.



Larry Sexon



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Jon
Miller
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car





On 6/23/2011 8:15 AM, spsalso wrote:
And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would have a
car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?
Fuel oil generator?????

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Drew M.
 

What does Lumpy Chocolate consider foreplay? Eating a bag of chips while watching Seinfeld?


 


________________________________
From: Jon Miller <atsf@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: OMI two dome tank car


 
On 6/23/2011 8:15 AM, spsalso wrote:
And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would have a car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?
Fuel oil generator?????

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: OMI two dome tank car

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 6/23/2011 8:15 AM, spsalso wrote:
And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would have a car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?
Fuel oil generator?????

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Re: OMI two dome tank car

spsalso
 

Neither the company nor the reporting mark is listed in my January 1939 ORER (nor in others of mine, from 1926 to 1960), but Northern Indiana dot-dot-dot does show up after the end of the world (1960) in my 1965 ORER, apparently with several hundred coal gons.

I have found cars with reporting marks that don't show up in the ORER before. I suppose that inclusion in the ORER is/was voluntary and perhaps even involved giving money to the publisher. Maybe perhaps.

I sure do wonder when the ad photo was taken. And where. 'Cause the car existed, even if the ORER says it didn't.

And there's a bit of curiosity about why a utility company would have a car like this (or 8 of them???). Was it load in or load out?

Thank you all for moving this project of mine forward. With the ad photo, I can pretty much figure out the "good-enough-for-me" lettering (though I guess the color might be either white or yellow--there's a puzzle) and the tank color (with the lack of graphic enthusiasm exhibited by the owner, I'm going with black).

Also looming (perhaps) is the possibility that an NIPX tank car would never roll over the rails in my modeling locale. Tony's suggestion of a wine tank car might lead me down the (possibly horrendous) freelance route. The car's next owner might be happy that paint strips easily off of a metal model.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

B&O High Car Specials Re: Pennsy Round-roof design issue

boyds1949
 

Regarding Sand Patch Tunnel. A good reason for not finding the "North Portal" may be that the direction is east-west. The east portal required a long walk even if you knew where the access roads were.

With that bit of trivia out of the way, I think the clearance problem was on the St. Louis line between Grafton and Parkersburg. The 1947 B&O Freight Working Book had the High Car Section of train 97 going west from Cumberland via Sand Patch to Pittsburgh and then to Benwood (near Wheeling) and to Newark where it was consolidated with 197 to East St. Louis. In 1951 The High Car Section of 97 operated from Cumberland to Willard (again by way of Sand Patch and Pittsburgh)and then to Newark, Cincinatti and East St. Louis.

John King

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Richard Hendrickson notes:

Probably the last holdout was the B&O, which dealt with the
tunnel clearance problems on its mainline Sand Patch grade by running
"high car specials" via a longer alternative route through Pittsburgh.
Not so. The real reason is that, on the Sand Patch grade, the tunnel near
Manila has only one entrance. I know because back in 1981 on the day before
ex C&O 614 was to take a train up that grade I went searching for the
northern entrance and it wasn't there. I have always been puzzled about
that, how trains surmounted that ridge...entering the southern tunnel
portal...which I did find...to later appear much farther north. The B&O was
tricky.

Mike Brock

Oh, Mike, that is SO obvious!! You went looking for the northern
"entrance." For that 614 run, there WAS no northern "entrance." It was an
EXIT!!!



Geez, do we have to explain EVERYthing?

SGL





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Re: OMI two dome tank car

Ian Cranstone
 

On 2011-06-22, at 11:56 PM, al_brown03 wrote:

Ian Cranstone's compilation of reporting marks ascribes NIPX to the Northern Indiana Public Service Company, as of 7/1932.
I'll add that this reporting mark was not listed in either the 7/1930 or 7/1935 issues However, it should be noted that full listings of reporting marks in the ORER did not occur until 7/1937, and prior to that only fleets actually listed in the ORER appeared.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]