Date   

Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel

cinderandeight@...
 

Thanks for that information David. The PRR was starting to find fault with
the PSC GL design by 1902, and was looking for a replacement design. The
result first was the class GV all steel hopper. While the PRR never built
any of the cars for their fleet some coal companies did. The nine side stake
Keystone car in this Shorpy photo is a class GV (the 7 stake car is a GLA,
while the fish belly cars are PSC GL's). The PRR would later received some
second hand GV's from Cambria Coal and Coke Co., but reclassed them as GLa
Odd in the ORER. A photo of a Keystone GV appears in the PRRT&HS gondola book
on page 48. Westerfield never offered a GV to my knowledge, but one could
probably be kit bashed from the GLa kit.
In all likelihood the PRR was more than happy to redirect existing orders
for the GL to coal companies, knowing that the cars ordered to replace them
would be their own GLa design. Thank you Steve for posting this great photo.
Rich Burg


Re: railroad movie

O Fenton Wells
 

TCM is Turner Classic Movies, I think at least it is on my TV.
Fenton Wells

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>wrote:

**


Al,

I cannot find a TCM channel. Does it go by a full name or some other alias.

Joel Holmes

Next Wednesday morning at 1;30 am ET TCM is showing the 1924 film Roaring
Rails. Not much is known about the film with only one review on IMDb. Al
Westerfield







--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


Re: railroad movie

Benjamin Hom
 

Joel Holmes asked:
"I cannot find a TCM channel. Does it go by a full name or some other alias?"

TCM = Turner Classic Movies:
http://www.tcm.com/


Ben Hom


Re: railroad movie

john.allyn@...
 

Turner Classic Movies


John B. Allyn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Holmes" <lehighvalley@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 9:58:17 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] railroad movie

 




Al,

I cannot find a TCM channel. Does it go by a full name or some other alias.

Joel Holmes

Next Wednesday morning at 1;30 am ET TCM is showing the 1924 film Roaring
Rails. Not much is known about the film with only one review on IMDb. Al
Westerfield


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: railroad movie

Don Burn
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Joel
Holmes
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 10:58 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] railroad movie

Al,

I cannot find a TCM channel. Does it go by a full name or some other alias.

Joel Holmes

Next Wednesday morning at 1;30 am ET TCM is showing the 1924 film
Roaring Rails. Not much is known about the film with only one review
on IMDb. Al Westerfield








------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: railroad movie

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Al,

I cannot find a TCM channel. Does it go by a full name or some other alias.

Joel Holmes

Next Wednesday morning at 1;30 am ET TCM is showing the 1924 film Roaring
Rails. Not much is known about the film with only one review on IMDb. Al
Westerfield





Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Still time to order DVD's!

SUVCWORR@...
 

FWIW, I agree with Greg and suggest that the rule be changed to reflect a requirement that anyone posting messages regard the selling of products by a commercial enterprise be required to at a minimum "occasionally" post messages germane to the list. Occasionally being determined by the owner/moderators but more than once a year.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: tgregmrtn <tgregmrtn@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Dec 11, 2011 9:12 pm
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Re: [STMFC] Re: Still time to order DVD's!


Mike,



I fully understand the rules but what I object to is that this email has

come from someone who does not participate in this forum accept when he has

something to sell and to me that is SPAM...



I think that others would agree and perhaps if they spoke up the rule would

perhaps change just a bit in our favor.



Greg Martin



Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.

Norman Maclean





In a message dated 12/11/2011 8:30:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

brockm@... writes:









Ron dePierre notes:



Hmmmm ...
I thought the STMFC Group rules clearly stipulated advertising on Friday
ONLY. Was there not a reminder about this recently ?
Perhaps there was a policy change that I am not aware of...


Here is the current rule...set in place several months ago:



"Messages regarding the selling of products associated with freight cars as

part of a commercial

enterprise must be sent during the period of noon Friday EST and Saturday

midnight EST."



Scott Mason's message arrived a bit late but I approved it

anyway...particularly since traffic is slow today. I will, however,

explain

the rule's current time period to him. Also, the DVD must contain info on

steam era frt cars so, yes, his DVD might not pass muster.



Mike Brock

STMFC Owner























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Yahoo! Groups Links



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/



Individual Email | Traditional



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/join

(Yahoo! ID required)



STMFC-digest@...

STMFC-fullfeatured@...



STMFC-unsubscribe@...



http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel

Eric Hansmann
 

I check Shorpy a few times a week to review the images. I especially enjoy the Pittsburgh images as I grew up not far from the Burgh and made many trips into and through the city to visit extended family members and to attend sporting and entertainment events. The recent Lucy Furnace image made me wonder where it was located. Shorpy offered the barest of details, but I found the complex on a Hopkins Plat map that covers that portion of the city. Here's the map:
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?view=entry;cc=maps;entryid=x-20090513-hopkins-0019

And a TinyURL for the same page in case there are problems with the above link.
http://tinyurl.com/82zh4kb

The Lucy Furnace is located at the top left portion of the map. Note the pink area of the map just below the Lucy Furnace complex and across the Allegheny Valley Railroad tracks. This area is marked American Bridge Company. Just click on the map to zoom in. The main American Bridge plant was in Ambridge, PA further downstream on the Ohio River, but this is a smaller operation possibly situated to take advantage of the nearby steel producing facility and the vibrant railroad.

The next plat downstream reveals more heavy industry near the Lucy Furnace.
http://images.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/i/image/image-idx?view=entry;cc=maps;entryid=x-06v03p27

And a TinyURL for the same page in case there are problems with the above link.
http://tinyurl.com/7rtk8un

Note one of the industries is the McConway & Torley Company. I believe this firm still makes railroad industry couplers in the present day, but possibly in a different Pittsburgh location. Across the tracks from McConway & Torley is the H.K. Porter Locomotive Company. There are many more details to enjoy on these maps. I only wish we had some steam era images of the nearby yard so we could see the freight car variety that served this end of Pittsburgh.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

--- In STMFC@..., "John C. La Rue, Jr." <MOFWCABOOSE@...> wrote:


It is obvious that the American Bridge cars are camp cars; an interesting but by no means unusual example of camp cars owned by a contractor as opposed to being owned by a railroad. Data on privately owned camp cars is very hard to come by because they were not usually listed in the ORERs and the owning companies had the only records. Old photographs like this one are often the only remaining record that such cars even existed.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Still time to order DVD's!

Scott Pitzer
 

I should just skip over Scotty Mason ad messages, the same as I would skip over a message concerning CB&Q cabooses circa 1903. Or an Algoma Central camp car. Not everything has to be about my particular interests.
But somehow I'm drawn to them-- I guess in a strange way I WANT to be annoyed by a Form Letter from a stranger, that's going out to several lists?
In the future I'll try counting down, five four three two one, while clicking Delete. And maybe some of that Chai tea would help.
Scott Pitzer


Re: Flat car stake pockets, was: 1925 C of G Flat Car Survives

jerryglow2
 

Sounds like you're on the wrong list if you don't give a "big fat hairy" whatever. I think the purpose of this list is pointing out the finer points and modeling accordingly. You can take shortcuts or make compromises and we will not criticize you but don't take us to task for caring.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "jim_mischke" <jmischke@...> wrote:



Pardon me for a basic question.

In modeling, why do we rivet counters care so much about the number of stake pockets on a flat car? They are not a structural car part. Easily changed on models by modelers, although never changed by the prototype roads.

The greater modeling challenge is getting the side sill profile correct. Overall length, heights, and taper. Proportions. With a believeable complement of rivet lines.

This question comes from trying to get a B&O flat car produced by manufacturers, or adapted from an existing product. I have been howled out of the room by modeling peers for even suggesting an otherwise decent model as a potential B&O prototype, only because the number of stake pockets was one off. I am still smarting. Ten or eleven stake pockets? Big fat hairy deal.






--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:

John

If those are the SAL cars I'm thinking of, they only had 11 stake pockets,
and all of them were rebuilt as pulpwood flats before 1950.

Tim O'Connor



What a find! Look at that--it even has K brakes on it. Wow! I would bet the deck is original too. Seaboard had some very similar cars from TC&I and I'll take a look and see how close they were. SAL's cars were F-4 class.

John


railroad movie

Al and Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Next Wednesday morning at 1;30 am ET TCM is showing the 1924 film Roaring Rails. Not much is known about the film with only one review on IMDb. Al Westerfield


Re: Flat car stake pockets, was: 1925 C of G Flat Car Survives

mopacfirst
 

My answer to the below -- no and yes. I have need for, and have built three so far, Mopac homebuilt (DeSoto) 1937 flats that are just a few inches off from the Red Caboose car, but with 13 stake pockets. The model has 12. The first and second from each end are in the correct place, so I drill new holes starting in the center and move outward. One of the new pockets has its right hole where an existing left hole is. I drill out the existing holes and fill with something like .010 rod, which makes them almost disappear. I can carve these while doing minimal damage to the adjacent rivets.

I can and have also made 13-stake 45' flats, also MoPac, by splicing two RC cars. That's somewhat harder to do, to make that joint minimally visible. Helps that the cars are black, and using the Tichy wood-grain technique on the decks helps distract the viewer also.

Ron Merrick

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

I have to wonder if it's easier just to make new flatcar sides or side overlays with new detail rather than remove and add stake pockets and rivets.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom <b.hom@> wrote:

Jim Mischke wrote:
"In modeling, why do we rivet counters care so much about the
number of stake pockets on a flat car? They are not a structural
car part. Easily changed on models by modelers, although never
changed by the prototype roads."

Pardon me for asking - have YOU ever changed stake pockets on a model?  It's not
as easy as it looks - cleaning up the sides without losing rivet detail is
tough.  The availability of Archer rivets today makes redoing rivet detail much
easier, but it wasn't always this way.


Ben Hom


Re: Definition of what make a common carrier railroad vs a product specific railroad

david zuhn
 


A common carrier accepts certain obligations, including serving
all customers equally, no matter how they show up. Obviously a company
short line would not want and could not meet such an obligation.
The upside to those obligations might be the reason for accepting common
carrier status. As I understand it, such "niceties" like the ability to
use eminent domain to acquire land rights, or the rights to cross public
roadways at grade, were primarily available to common carrier railroads
only.

Of note to some of us: some of the rules and regulations applying to train
crew requirements, boiler inspections, and other "safety" items were not
always applicable to the company-owned non-common-carrier line.

My prototype (the Washington Idaho & Montana) ran as a common carrier road,
but connected to many different woods lines run by the Potlatch Lumber
Company (who also owned & operated the WI&M). Hours of service laws didn't
apply to the woods crews, nor did the stringent FRA inspections. "If it
moved, it ran" was more or less the rule of the day. These woods engines
could occasionally run on the WI&M line, but woods-service cars were not
likely kept up to interchange quality to go beyond the WI&M.


--
david d zuhn Saint Paul Bridge & Terminal Ry.
zoo @ stpaulterminal.org


Re: Definition of what make a common carrier railroad vs a product specific railroad

water.kresse@...
 

Maybe I should made the question "What do you define and call the "non-common carrier" railroads?  If you run a line to mine and back down  35 miles to a tipple? . . . or a railroad that shifts cars at a blast furnace and runs up to an ore mine tipple and back.  You also carry materials for a company store and shuttle workers around.  You may (send your safety appliance equipped) cars to your mine off a Class A railroad branchline from your facility on a track they maintain in your yard via their shifter, or may  not interchange cars but shift mainline cars in your yard.  You may deliver mail to small village or PO Box on your line.



Is that a private railroad, or an industrial railroad, etc.

Al Kresse

----- Original Message -----


From: "Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:42:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Definition of what make a common carrier railroad vs a  product specific railroad

Al

Almost all the railroads we discuss here were common carriers in
the STMFC era. A common carrier was obligated to carry any cargo of
any amount that could feasibly be moved by rail. So a common carrier
had to carry mail, passengers, LCL, carload, perishables, livestock,
etc etc. Or another way is to say the railroad couldn't say "No" if
someone wanted to ship something over the railroad. And it has to
offer the same prices and services to everyone for the same cargo or
movement. That's my basic understanding of what it means.

Or you can try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier

Tim O'



Is there a definition of what is a "common carrier" railroad is vs something that is specifically built to extract coal or ore or timber, or serviced a blast furnace or steel mill (industrial railroad)?  The later still used lever hand brakes only and link and pin couplers long after they were banded from interchange service.

Al Kresse


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Definition of what make a common carrier railroad vs a product specific railroad

Tim O'Connor
 

Al

Almost all the railroads we discuss here were common carriers in
the STMFC era. A common carrier was obligated to carry any cargo of
any amount that could feasibly be moved by rail. So a common carrier
had to carry mail, passengers, LCL, carload, perishables, livestock,
etc etc. Or another way is to say the railroad couldn't say "No" if
someone wanted to ship something over the railroad. And it has to
offer the same prices and services to everyone for the same cargo or
movement. That's my basic understanding of what it means.

Or you can try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier

Tim O'

Is there a definition of what is a "common carrier" railroad is vs something that is specifically built to extract coal or ore or timber, or serviced a blast furnace or steel mill� (industrial railroad)?� The later� still used� lever hand brakes only and link and pin couplers long after they were banded from interchange service.

Al Kresse


Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel

Tim O'Connor
 

Vandalism's at least as old as man.
> Ray Breyer

Technically, Ray, only 1,500 years old. :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals


Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel

Cyril Durrenberger
 

So is it likely that these cars were used for crews that went to install a new bridge?
Note that the car on the right is an old refrigerator car and look at the trucks.

Cyril Durrenberger

--- On Sun, 12/11/11, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

From: Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, December 11, 2011, 6:14 PM
















 









Yes, these are clearly camp cars, or work train cars, and equally obviously,

these are retirees from some railroad which sold them to American Bridge.

Those look to me to be cars from the mid-to-late 1800s, based on the shape

of the roof, lack of clerestory, the step construction and so on. Finding

out where these came from would be a truly amazing stroke of luck and/or

detective work. American Bridge was headquartered in Ambridge PA (west of

Pittsburgh) so it's not surprising the car is there (American Bridge of NEW

YORK notwithstanding).



Schuyler



It is obvious that the American Bridge cars are camp cars; an interesting

but by no means unusual example of camp cars owned by a contractor as

opposed to being owned by a railroad. Data on privately owned camp cars is

very hard to come by because they were not usually listed in the ORERs and

the owning companies had the only records. Old photographs like this one are

often the only remaining record that such cars even existed.



John C. La Rue, Jr.

Bonita Springs, FL



-----Original Message-----

From: talltim10



Can anyone point me in the right direction to find out more about the

American Bridge car? I'm not sure if would count as freight or passenger,

probably on that thin line!



Tim



--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , S hed

<shed999@...> wrote:

Shorpy has posted a picture of a Carnegie Steel Co furnace at Pittsburgh
in 1908. In the picture are Keystone Coal & Coke Co steel hoppers and a

Pennsy steel hopper. Also in the picture is a car belonging to American

Bridge Co and an unidentified car. Both are obviously 19th century cars.

Really cool picture!! I'm sure Westerfield made a kit for every hopper in

that picture. Thanks Al for your great work!!!!

http://www.shorpy.com/node/11859?size=_original Steve HEverett WA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Flat car stake pockets, was: 1925 C of G Flat Car Survives

Tim O'Connor
 

Jim

When I mentioned the SAL car and CofG car had 11 and 12 stake pockets
respectively I was thinking of Tichy's model. To change the positions
and/or number of the stake pockets on the Tichy car is not trivial, as
there are pre-formed holes in the car side for the pockets! So in
addition to rivet problems as Ben describes, you have the problem of
how to hide all those holes! I'm sure it can be done, but as someone
said it might be easier to make a whole new side.

Tim O'Connor

Jim Mischke wrote:
"In modeling, why do we rivet counters care so much about the
number of stake pockets on a flat car? They are not a structural
car part. Easily changed on models by modelers, although never
changed by the prototype roads."

Pardon me for asking - have YOU ever changed stake pockets on a model? It's not
as easy as it looks - cleaning up the sides without losing rivet detail is
tough. The availability of Archer rivets today makes redoing rivet detail much
easier, but it wasn't always this way.

Ben Hom


Re: Definition of what make a common carrier railroad vs a product specific railroad

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Kresse wrote:
Is there a definition of what is a "common carrier" railroad is vs something that is specifically built to extract coal or ore or timber, or serviced a blast furnace or steel mill (industrial railroad)? The later still used lever hand brakes only and link and pin couplers long after they were banded from interchange service.
A common carrier accepts certain obligations, including serving all customers equally, no matter how they show up. Obviously a company short line would not want and could not meet such an obligation.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Early Steel Hoppers & Carnegie Steel

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yes, these are clearly camp cars, or work train cars, and equally obviously,
these are retirees from some railroad which sold them to American Bridge.
Those look to me to be cars from the mid-to-late 1800s, based on the shape
of the roof, lack of clerestory, the step construction and so on. Finding
out where these came from would be a truly amazing stroke of luck and/or
detective work. American Bridge was headquartered in Ambridge PA (west of
Pittsburgh) so it's not surprising the car is there (American Bridge of NEW
YORK notwithstanding).



Schuyler



It is obvious that the American Bridge cars are camp cars; an interesting
but by no means unusual example of camp cars owned by a contractor as
opposed to being owned by a railroad. Data on privately owned camp cars is
very hard to come by because they were not usually listed in the ORERs and
the owning companies had the only records. Old photographs like this one are
often the only remaining record that such cars even existed.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL

-----Original Message-----
From: talltim10

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find out more about the
American Bridge car? I'm not sure if would count as freight or passenger,
probably on that thin line!

Tim

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , S hed
<shed999@...> wrote:

Shorpy has posted a picture of a Carnegie Steel Co furnace at Pittsburgh
in 1908. In the picture are Keystone Coal & Coke Co steel hoppers and a
Pennsy steel hopper. Also in the picture is a car belonging to American
Bridge Co and an unidentified car. Both are obviously 19th century cars.
Really cool picture!! I'm sure Westerfield made a kit for every hopper in
that picture. Thanks Al for your great work!!!!
http://www.shorpy.com/node/11859?size=_original Steve HEverett WA











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