Date   

Re: CN Stock Cars in the USA

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Steve and Group,

My knowledge of Canadian rolling stock used in interchange around the US is very limited. But the notes taken by James Burke in 1945 at Climax, Kansas, are interesting.

There were three CN cars noted on Burke's list... 481090 and 486797, both 40-foot 10ft-0in IH w/6ft doors... and 574550, a 40ft automobile box car w/ double doors with either a 12 or 13ft opening (going from memory here). All arrived empty on the southbound train and were forwarded northbound to Small, Kansas, because of a facing switching move for the southbound train, where they were loaded with alfalfa. Stuffing bales through those 6-foot doors must have been less than fun.

A couple of comments:
This might be a result of CN box cars being held for loading as you noted.
I do not have any idea of what the unload destination was for the alfalfa.

What does all of this mean? Not a lot in the scheme of things. But it does mean that my Kansas branch line layout will have at least one, perhaps two, CN box cars in the staging fleet to choose from.

Happy Modeling
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA



On Dec 29, 2011, at 10:08 AM, Steve Lucas wrote:

Wow! Those must have been some valuable sheep to travel that distance.

Is it possible that CN stock cars were held by US roads in the steam era if needed for loading on their lines? It certainly happened with CN boxcars.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:


Group, Of course CN stock cars got down to the USA! Or at least one did: CN 171510, loaded at Guelph, Ont. with lambs to Dixon. Cal. (near Sacramento). This was on Nov. 24, 1947 on the LA (Los Angeles Special). The UP must have handed the car off to the SP to get it to Dixon. This is the only example that I have of a Canadian stock car on the UP in 1947-48. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Ray Breyer
 

Does anyone have in-service numbers for the CP and CN Fower fleet in the mid-1950s? The Westerfield Models site
has details that note 75,000 of the six-foot wide door were built, while the Canadian Pacific built 33,000 of the five-foot
wide door versions. These numbers do not include stock cars or 40-foot versions of the car design. 
Eric
 
Hi Eric,
 
Raw numbers of "less than 40-foot-long Canadian boxcars" from the 1955 ORER are as follows:
 
CN: 16,547
CP: 13,918
ON: 52
QC: 38
GTW: 23
QLP: 4
 
Total: 30,582 cars
Total boxcar fleet USA and Canada: 854,787 cars
Canadian shorties make up 3.6% of all boxcars in the USA and Canada.
 
I'm not quite sure about the actual carbody breakdown of the above list; I know that a few of these 30,582 cars are double sheathed shorties, and at 39'11" a few others are definitely NOT Dominion cars. I can pass you the raw data offlist if you want it!
 
Regards,
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Bruce Smith
 

Tim,

Dang, these things that happen some time in the future always mess me
up, so yes, the 1953 car would be OK with both of the 1957 cars, but the
1952 car would be in need of reweighing.

As for cars missing having "expired" reweigh dates, I too have seen
evidence of that, but it seems fairly uncommon.

As for the old scheme with later reweights, I agree, but the simple
solution there is to cover the reweigh with tape and weather the rest of
the car - voila patched reweigh without any decals needed.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"Tim O'Connor" <timboconnor@...> 12/29/11 10:54 AM >>>
Bruce why can't a 53 and 57 reweigh run together? The interval was
48 months for box cars. I'm sure more than a few cars slipped past
their deadlines... I have MANY images of freight cars incorrectly
lettered after "mandatory" deadlines.

My objection to the 55 and 57 models with pre-53 paint schemes is
that unless the paint jobs depict reweigh "patch" style lettering,
they may look like full repaints with anachronistic reweigh dates.

Tim O'Connor


That's great. But, no offense Ed, you cannot run those cars together,
since the '52 and '53 reweight dates would be innappropriate for 1957
or
later and of course for dates that the '52 and '53 reweighs are proper,
the '57 reweighs are some time in the future! ;^)

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

CN did have some five-foot door stock cars, inherited from the Intercolonial/Canadian Government Railways. But they had a vertically-boarded door with three horizontal cross braces, as I recall.

The body of this model strikes me as the old Proto/Hobbycraft Canada body for the "Fowler". The underframe is new work (thankfully). I want to be wrong about the body, as the Proto/Hobbycraft body was a generic steel-frame Dominion car carbody. Rob Kirkham had done some work on converting it to more accurately model a CPR car.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

Fenton,

Well, that depends. First, it depends upon what is being displayed at the TTL website. As the only painted models are of Canadian Pacific cars, then I assume these follow the design with the five-foot wide doors. I do not know if the Canadian National had any of these narrow door cars or kept to the six-foot wide door cars.

BTW, Canadian National is one of the roads listed at the TTL website for this product, so maybe a six foot door version will also be produced.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY





--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@> wrote:

This is probably a dumb question but how close are these to the NC&St.L
cars?
Fenton Wells

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@> wrote:

**


Tim O'Connor asked:
"Did these cars come to the US much? For their huge numbers I
can't recall any photos of them south of the border in the 1940's
and later."
Ben Hom replied
Data that I've tabulated from the Premo Collection of Rutland Shifting
Lists
show 204 "Fowler"/"Dominion" cars of all variations out of 359 total CN
boxcars. Based on this small sample size, the answer is "yes".
This discussion made me smile. The bottom line is that these Canadian
cars did not follow the N-G (Nelson-Gilbert) model. Since their usage
was dictate by customs rules, these cars did not participate in the US
pool as free rollers, but rather usually needed to have a Canada-US or
US-Canada routing. As a consequence they DO follow the proximity rule,
where you would expect higher numbers of these cars to be present in
close proximity to Canada and fewer the further you got away. So, for
me, modeling the PRR, a small number of the boxcars is definitely in
order (and could easily represent cars interchanged at Buffalo NY, for
example). Were I to model the ACL, I might be harder pressed to justify
more than one or two (perhaps in newsprint service?). Of course, the
stock cars are a different kettle of fish and would be very unlikely to
be seen in the US (except perhaps on CN/CP aligned roads?).

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@




Re: Northern Pacific reefers

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

Hello group
Does anyone know of a source for drawings (not just diagram sheets)
for Northern Pacific steel underframe reefers built ca. 1922 by ACF?
I tried the excellent NPRHS site and they have the diagrams but not full drawings.I seem to recall hearing that one of the state historical societies in NP country had an archive of NP drawings. Can any one elaborate?
Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>
Laurance
Ctc Jim Dick at jcworkingonthenp@... He is our (NPRHA) archive
specialist at the MHS he'll be your best help.
regards
Ed Ursem


Re: Northern Pacific reefers

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

Hello group
Does anyone know of a source for drawings (not just diagram sheets)
for Northern Pacific steel underframe reefers built ca. 1922 by ACF?
I tried the excellent NPRHS site and they have the diagrams but not full drawings.I seem to recall hearing that one of the state historical societies in NP country had an archive of NP drawings. Can any one elaborate?
Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>
Laurance
Ctc Jim Dick at jcworkingonthenp@... He is our (NPRHA) archive
specialist at the MHS he'll be your best help.
regards
Ed Ursem


Re: Northern Pacific reefers

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

Hello group
Does anyone know of a source for drawings (not just diagram sheets)
for Northern Pacific steel underframe reefers built ca. 1922 by ACF?
I tried the excellent NPRHS site and they have the diagrams but not full drawings.I seem to recall hearing that one of the state historical societies in NP country had an archive of NP drawings. Can any one elaborate?
Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>
Laurance
Ctc Jim Dick at jcworkingonthenp@... He is our (NPRHA) archive
specialist at the MHS he'll be your best help.
regards
Ed Ursem


Re: Northern Pacific reefers

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

Hello group
Does anyone know of a source for drawings (not just diagram sheets)
for Northern Pacific steel underframe reefers built ca. 1922 by ACF?
I tried the excellent NPRHS site and they have the diagrams but not full drawings.I seem to recall hearing that one of the state historical societies in NP country had an archive of NP drawings. Can any one elaborate?
Laurance King
<lrkdbn@...>
Laurance
Ctc Jim Dick at jcworkingonthenp@... He is our (NPRHA) archive
specialist at the MHS he'll be your best help.
regards
Ed Ursem


Re: Northern Pacific reefers

Ed Ursem <nprybiged@...>
 

Laurance

Ctc Jim Dick at jcdworkingonthenp@... he is our (NPRHA) archive specialist. He will be
your best source .

Regards
Ed Ursem


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Eric Hansmann
 

Fenton,

Well, that depends. First, it depends upon what is being displayed at the TTL website. As the only painted models are of Canadian Pacific cars, then I assume these follow the design with the five-foot wide doors. I do not know if the Canadian National had any of these narrow door cars or kept to the six-foot wide door cars.

The US roads seemed to have rostered cars with six-foot wide doors. These included the Erie, NC&StL, and Grand Trunk. Many are illustrated at the Westerfield Models site:
https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=39

A few other lines rostered the 36-foot Fowler/Dominion design box car. The NKP absorbed a batch when it bought up the Toledo, St Louis & Western. I also found this Wabash car that seems similar. Can anyone confirm that this followed the Fowler/Dominion design?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/wab75699asw.jpg

BTW, Canadian National is one of the roads listed at the TTL website for this product, so maybe a six foot door version will also be produced.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

This is probably a dumb question but how close are these to the NC&St.L
cars?
Fenton Wells

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

**


Tim O'Connor asked:
"Did these cars come to the US much? For their huge numbers I
can't recall any photos of them south of the border in the 1940's
and later."
Ben Hom replied
Data that I've tabulated from the Premo Collection of Rutland Shifting
Lists
show 204 "Fowler"/"Dominion" cars of all variations out of 359 total CN
boxcars. Based on this small sample size, the answer is "yes".
This discussion made me smile. The bottom line is that these Canadian
cars did not follow the N-G (Nelson-Gilbert) model. Since their usage
was dictate by customs rules, these cars did not participate in the US
pool as free rollers, but rather usually needed to have a Canada-US or
US-Canada routing. As a consequence they DO follow the proximity rule,
where you would expect higher numbers of these cars to be present in
close proximity to Canada and fewer the further you got away. So, for
me, modeling the PRR, a small number of the boxcars is definitely in
order (and could easily represent cars interchanged at Buffalo NY, for
example). Were I to model the ACL, I might be harder pressed to justify
more than one or two (perhaps in newsprint service?). Of course, the
stock cars are a different kettle of fish and would be very unlikely to
be seen in the US (except perhaps on CN/CP aligned roads?).

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Stock car reloading - was CN Stock Cars in the USA

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

Your comment raises and interesting point, Bruce, which I have not considered before. The rules for unloading and resting livestock are fairly well known but I do not recall having seen anything on one aspect of such mocvements. Is there anything that dictates what cars the stock must be reloaded into??? In this case, could the CN stock car be unloaded for a rest stop, returned home empty and the stock be reloaded into another stock car to continue their trip????

simply asking, Don Valentine

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

Frank,

Interesting... That is a LONG trip and would have required at least on
rest stop on a foreign road.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> 12/29/11 10:42 AM >>>
Group, Of course CN stock cars got down to the USA! Or at least one
did: CN 171510, loaded at Guelph, Ont. with lambs to Dixon. Cal. (near
Sacramento). This was on Nov. 24, 1947 on the LA (Los Angeles Special).
The UP must have handed the car off to the SP to get it to Dixon. This
is the only example that I have of a Canadian stock car on the UP in
1947-48. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)




Re: CN Stock Cars in the USA

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Wow! Those must have been some valuable sheep to travel that distance.

Is it possible that CN stock cars were held by US roads in the steam era if needed for loading on their lines? It certainly happened with CN boxcars.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@...> wrote:


Group, Of course CN stock cars got down to the USA! Or at least one did: CN 171510, loaded at Guelph, Ont. with lambs to Dixon. Cal. (near Sacramento). This was on Nov. 24, 1947 on the LA (Los Angeles Special). The UP must have handed the car off to the SP to get it to Dixon. This is the only example that I have of a Canadian stock car on the UP in 1947-48. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Bob Sterner
 

These TLT cars are good news for me. As a CP aligned road, the Soo received many CP stock cars for the South St. Paul packing plant. I was told this by a long-term Soo dispatcher who worked that line for many years. I believe he mentioned horses were often brought in that way. I've seen a photo, I think in one of the Soo books (I'd have to do some digging), that shows a cut of perhaps 6 CP stock cars in the brown and white scheme behind a Geep on the Twin Cities main. I presume that was a cattle extra from Shoreham to the NP/CGW interchange at Mississippi St., heading for that plant.

Bob Sterner
St. Paul, MN

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 29, 2011, at 7:24 AM, Bruce F. Smith wrote:
....Of course, the
stock cars are a different kettle of fish and would be very
unlikely to
be seen in the US (except perhaps on CN/CP aligned roads?).
Well, Bruce, there exists a conductor's train sheet from the '50s
showing a CN 36' stock car eastbound on a Santa Fe train in the heart
of Texas. Exceptional, I'll grant. Still....


Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Brian Ehni <behni@...> wrote:

Many railroads (such as the Rock Island) had Fowler clones, however.
These may be a stand-in for the clones.

I think not, Brian, unless you can find R.I. and DRG&W "clones" that were only 36 ft. in length! Erie, Susquehanna and NC&StL are antoher matter as already noted.

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

Tim,

Here are a couple of circa 1925 images taken along the Wheeling & Lake Erie in Canton, Ohio. These images are from the W&LE archives in the Michael Schwartz Library of Cleveland State University Library in Cleveland, Ohio. Two Canadian Pacific Fowler box cars and an ERIE double-sheathed box car with an indestructible-type of end are spotted along a siding just north of the W&LE depot. Click on the images for the full version.

This view looks north:
http://www.hansmanns.org/images/canton_industry_1.JPG

This view is pointed south:
http://www.hansmanns.org/images/canton_industry_2.JPG

Does anyone have in-service numbers for the CP and CN Fower fleet in the mid-1950s? The Westerfield Models site has details that note 75,000 of the six-foot wide door were built, while the Canadian Pacific built 33,000 of the five-foot wide door versions. These numbers do not include stock cars or 40-foot versions of the car design.

I cannot thank you enough for posting these two photos, Eric, particularly the view looking northward. A long interest in what are more properly called Dominion Cars, less than 10% of the 75,000 +- of which were construced having used the Fowler patent, not withstanding, what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have
acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we
(collectively) really know about the practice.

As an aside for both you and Tim O'Connor it must be pointed out
that Armand Premo's postings on the Dominion cars are absolutely correct in all respects. My own photos, however, indicate that the
Dominion cars were much more prevalent on CNR-CV routings through New England by 1950 than on CPR routings with the possible exception of the CPR "Short Line" thorugh Maine. Given a moment after New Year's Day I will try to find a few car numbers for you and leave it to the two of you to look up car groups for accuracy of door widths, end construction and such. A reminder may be in order for this. But that cars were far more common than most seem to realize, with such cars being owned by both the Erie and NC&StL as well.

Happy New Year, Don Valentine


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Richard--

I was looking at photos of the model online and was sceptical until I read your post. With some of the inaccurate stuff that has been foisted upon the modelling public of late, you'll understand why.

Now I just have to finish building the Westerfield steel NYC box car kit that I bought a few years ago to go with one of these cars...

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, mguill1224@... wrote:

I would like to know what sources BLI used to produce the NYC
boxcars. I know BLI did not use any resources of the NYCSHS because
the board would have had to authorize that. So who did the research
and what was used? Not likely that this question will be answered
but it would be interesting to know who provided the research
package for the boxcars. Hugh T. Guillaume
No great mystery here, Hugh. I provided them with a lot of
information and photos, and Terry Link and others were also
involved. Several of us on this list were given the opportunity to
critique pre-production samples, which corrected a number of
problems. At that time, the NYCHS was not involved because the
society had a long-established reputation for being unresponsive to
requests for prototype freight car data, or to requests of any kind
from non-members. That, fortunately appears to be changing.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

O Fenton Wells
 

This is probably a dumb question but how close are these to the NC&St.L
cars?
Fenton Wells

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

**


Tim O'Connor asked:
"Did these cars come to the US much? For their huge numbers I
can't recall any photos of them south of the border in the 1940's
and later."
Ben Hom replied
Data that I've tabulated from the Premo Collection of Rutland Shifting
Lists
show 204 "Fowler"/"Dominion" cars of all variations out of 359 total CN
boxcars. Based on this small sample size, the answer is "yes".
This discussion made me smile. The bottom line is that these Canadian
cars did not follow the N-G (Nelson-Gilbert) model. Since their usage
was dictate by customs rules, these cars did not participate in the US
pool as free rollers, but rather usually needed to have a Canada-US or
US-Canada routing. As a consequence they DO follow the proximity rule,
where you would expect higher numbers of these cars to be present in
close proximity to Canada and fewer the further you got away. So, for
me, modeling the PRR, a small number of the boxcars is definitely in
order (and could easily represent cars interchanged at Buffalo NY, for
example). Were I to model the ACL, I might be harder pressed to justify
more than one or two (perhaps in newsprint service?). Of course, the
stock cars are a different kettle of fish and would be very unlikely to
be seen in the US (except perhaps on CN/CP aligned roads?).

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

 

Richard,

Thank you for the info re BLI boxcars.

I suspected that folks such as you, Terry and others were involved after I read the post from Ben Horn.

As I just told Tim O'Connor, the establishment of a Modelers Committee by the board of the NYCSHS is a step in the right direction. Another giant step is the e-zine edited by Noel Widdifield. It can be accessed through the NYCSHS website.

A number of NYCSHS members who, like myself, are model railroaders have lobbied long and hard for a new approach to the model community. The president and the board, much to their credit, have moved forward on this.

Thank you, again, for the post, and congratulations to you, Terry and everyone else who worked on the boxcar project. I just hope that I will be able to find a few for my layout. Here in Western New York we do not really have a well-stocked model railroad store anymore. But that is another issue not relevant to this board.

Happy New Year!

Hugh T. Guillaume

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, mguill1224@... wrote:

I would like to know what sources BLI used to produce the NYC
boxcars. I know BLI did not use any resources of the NYCSHS because
the board would have had to authorize that. So who did the research
and what was used? Not likely that this question will be answered
but it would be interesting to know who provided the research
package for the boxcars. Hugh T. Guillaume
No great mystery here, Hugh. I provided them with a lot of
information and photos, and Terry Link and others were also
involved. Several of us on this list were given the opportunity to
critique pre-production samples, which corrected a number of
problems. At that time, the NYCHS was not involved because the
society had a long-established reputation for being unresponsive to
requests for prototype freight car data, or to requests of any kind
from non-members. That, fortunately appears to be changing.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Tim O'Connor
 

Thank you Hugh. That's good to hear, I hope this bears fruit.

Tim O'

This should change now that a Modelers' Committee has been established.
Hugh T. Guillaume


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, mguill1224@... wrote:

I would like to know what sources BLI used to produce the NYC
boxcars. I know BLI did not use any resources of the NYCSHS because
the board would have had to authorize that. So who did the research
and what was used? Not likely that this question will be answered
but it would be interesting to know who provided the research
package for the boxcars. Hugh T. Guillaume
No great mystery here, Hugh. I provided them with a lot of
information and photos, and Terry Link and others were also
involved. Several of us on this list were given the opportunity to
critique pre-production samples, which corrected a number of
problems. At that time, the NYCHS was not involved because the
society had a long-established reputation for being unresponsive to
requests for prototype freight car data, or to requests of any kind
from non-members. That, fortunately appears to be changing.

Richard Hendrickson

90021 - 90040 of 195610