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Re: CN Stock Cars in the USA

SUVCWORR@...
 

Not to mention the livestock quarantining requirements in that time period.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: stmfc <stmfc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 11:52 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] CN Stock Cars in the USA


Frank,

Interesting... That is a LONG trip and would have required at least on
rest stop on a foreign road.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

FRANK PEACOCK <frank3112@msn.com> 12/29/11 10:42 AM >>>
Group, Of course CN stock cars got down to the USA! Or at least one
did: CN 171510, loaded at Guelph, Ont. with lambs to Dixon. Cal. (near
Sacramento). This was on Nov. 24, 1947 on the LA (Los Angeles Special).
The UP must have handed the car off to the SP to get it to Dixon. This
is the only example that I have of a Canadian stock car on the UP in
1947-48. FHP (Frank H. Peacock)






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Douglas Harding
 

Don, wasn't paper put around doors that like for loads like bulk flour? Ie
loads that could not be contaiminated.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
You should watch the PBS show on Prohibition. Very interesting . . . I think imports from Canada probably increased significantly in this era, albeit not by box car...
Tim, you might like the detailed history book on Prohibition, "Last Call." It explains the dominant scam for those Canadian imports: waybill them as sealed freight cars or highway trucks for delivery in Mexico (thus getting them admitted to the U.S. "for transit only"), then "arranging" certificates of delivery in Mexico to hand over to the U.S. authorities--meanwhile the cargo could be delivered wherever desired. This continued until the late 1920s.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: on Tech/Modeler Committees was BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Peter Ness
 

Hi Hugh,

Just a small, sad dash of reality to sprinkle on your optimism, unfortunately...and I'm sure others on this group can share similar horror stories, too;

Having Technical and/or Modeling Committees is a definite benefit compared to the alternative, but..

Not all manufacturers or publishers make use of such committees and even more frustrating is the case when manufacturers and publishers sometimes make use of the Committees; Con-Cor is doing an admirable job working with the NHRHTA Tech Committee (and others) to develop an HO scale model of the "Comet", but at the same time they are releasing a non-trolley-pole equipped PCC trolley in a New Haven paint scheme worn only by a group of Mack railbusses...go figger! Several Morning Sun books published on the New Haven (not only those authored by the late Dave Sweetland) were in conjunction with caption review by members of NHRHTA but we are all scratching our heads over the two most recent "Facilities" books which had no review and the errata list is long indeed...

To bring this all back on topic, at the moment I am eagerly awaiting the IM release of the 10' IH post-war boxcars which will first be released in the NYC Pacemaker scheme with a subsequent planned New Haven release; I believe the NYC cars had riveted 3/4 IDE's like the New Haven but I am less certain about the roof type (Hutchins - rectrangular panel), handbrake (Universal), trucks (some "Bettendorf" some ASF A-3) and running boards (Apex Tri-Lok). IM did work with NHRHTA on the artwork but I am unaware they worked with anyone on the car itself.

In summary, historical groups' committees can set the bar as as they like but it is still dependent on manufacturers' and publishers to decide to make use of these groups. To my knowledge, almost every time a Technical or Modeling Committee has been involved the product has been of very good quality. One exception to the rule was the True Line Trains F-M CPA 24-5...I believe several Tech Committess were involved but the manufacturer made compromises from their business perspective depsite the cooperation. It happens, but to their credit, TLT did not tout the product as "approved" by any historical group when it was launched.

Regards,
Peter Ness

----- Original Message -----
From: mguill1224@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 12:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models



Ben, Thanks for the prompt reply to my post. No, I don't need to know the name of the person who researched the NYC boxcars. I am very confident now, based on your post, that a competent job was done. That's good because all too often manufacturers have used a color picture book as a primary source rahter than making an effort to find some "official' documentation. Sometimes black and white pics have been used with disastrous results.

You are quite correct that the NYCSHS would probably not have been helpful. This might change for the good now that the NYCSHS actually has a Modelers' Committee. I just hope that the new committee sets the bar at a high level and does not take the low road of "good enough" or "close enough". I am by no means a master model builder but I do not like the "good enough" or "close enough" approach.

Thanks again for your reply.

Hugh T. Guillaume


Re: US Army and Navy boxcars during WW II + ammunition placards

Bruce Smith
 

Stuart,

In WWII, the placard was "INFLAMMABLE" not "FLAMMABLE".

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

"Stuart A. Forsyth" <trainmail@me.com> 12/29/11 5:07 PM >>>
I am preparing a clinic for the February 18th SFRH&MS Mini-Meet at the
San Bernardino Depot regarding the Chemical Warfare Service's San
Bernardino Bomb Plant and the Rialto Back-Up Ammunition Storage Point
east of San Bernardino, CA during World War II.

Can anyone point me to photos of:

1. US Army or US Navy boxcars that would have been in use during World
War II (1941-1945), or

2. The appropriate placards (Explosive or Flammable) that would have
been used on boxcars loaded with ammunition during World War II.

Thank you and . . . Happy New Year!


Stuart


Stuart A. Forsyth
forsyth@usa.net






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: US Army and Navy boxcars during WW II + ammunition placards

Don Strack
 

Here is a photo I took of a U.S. Army car in 1982. The stencil says
the car was built in 1941.

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Hill-AFB-1982/20767779_kHsX6j#1647164023_kVCSK4t

Don Strack


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Tim O'Connor
 

You should watch the PBS show on Prohibition. Very interesting. Some
breweries continued to operate throughout in the US. Seattle was quite
famous for its gentlemanly bootleggers and vast consumption of spirits.
I think imports from Canada probably increased significantly in this
era, albeit not by box car...

Tim O'

Based on several meetings with the president of Iron City brewery in Pittsburgh, back in the '60s, I learned many facilities (IC included) continued to brew, but extracted the alcohol, leaving legal "near beer" and selling the left over alcohol for medical or medicinal uses. Those with the right connections could purchase both components and inject the alcohol back into the bottles through the corks. They also made root beer, since the facilities were adaptable. None-the-less, many breweries folded in that era.

CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________
From: Eric <eric@hansmanns.org>

The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation.


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks, I doubt that I'll modify the doors on these good looking cars. Oh
well hopefully the newly purchased Westerfield wil release the NC&StL car
again soon.

Fenton

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Dave Evans <devans1@erols.com> wrote:

**


-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

Fenton,

Well, that depends. First, it depends upon what is being displayed at
the TTL website. As the only painted models are of Canadian Pacific cars,
then I assume these follow the design with the five-foot wide doors. I do
not know if the Canadian National had any of these narrow door cars or kept
to the six-foot wide door cars.

The US roads seemed to have rostered cars with six-foot wide doors.
These included the Erie, NC&StL, and Grand Trunk. Many are illustrated at
the Westerfield Models site:
https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=39

A few other lines rostered the 36-foot Fowler/Dominion design box car.
The NKP absorbed a batch when it bought up the Toledo, St Louis & Western.
I also found this Wabash car that seems similar. Can anyone confirm that
this followed the Fowler/Dominion design?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/wab75699asw.jpg

BTW, Canadian National is one of the roads listed at the TTL website for
this product, so maybe a six foot door version will also be produced.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

List,

There may be cause for optimism. The TRL site shows three cars - a stock
and two different box cars. The painted CP model has a steel door that is
clearly narrower than the panels - so a 5' door. The undecorated model has
a wood door (vertical boards), that is clearly wider than the adjacent
panels - likely a 6 foot door.

So there appears to be two sets of box car tooling, since the five and six
foot door cars would need different width side panels.

Would this suggest that at least a few of the US owned 36' Fowler boxcars
with 6 foot doors might soon become available?

Good news for a WWII modeler since over 10% of the US box car fleet was
still 36' during WWII!

After talking to some of the manufacturers at Cocoa Beach last January, it
sounded like a well planned out, multi-part, slide-out (?) tooling design
would support producing cars with two different sides without incurring
anywhere near a doubling of tooling cost. So hopefully TRL has leveraged
this concept and will provide both models (and maybe BLI has thought this
through on the NYC box cars and can change out the roof tooling for a
future, WWII era run....)

Dave Evans




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@gmail.com


Prototype Rails Clinic Schedule is online

Aley, Jeff A
 

Hi everybody,

I want to let you know that the final (?) clinic schedule for Prototype Rails 2012, in Cocoa Beach, FL, is online. It is Rev12 (even though the URL says rev08).

You may view it at:
http://www.prototyperails.com/PR%2712_rev08.html

I hope you can join us!

Regards,

-Jeff Aley
Clinic Chairman, PR'12


US Army and Navy boxcars during WW II + ammunition placards

Stuart A. Forsyth <trainmail@...>
 

I am preparing a clinic for the February 18th SFRH&MS Mini-Meet at the San Bernardino Depot regarding the Chemical Warfare Service's San Bernardino Bomb Plant and the Rialto Back-Up Ammunition Storage Point east of San Bernardino, CA during World War II.

Can anyone point me to photos of:

1. US Army or US Navy boxcars that would have been in use during World War II (1941-1945), or

2. The appropriate placards (Explosive or Flammable) that would have been used on boxcars loaded with ammunition during World War II.

Thank you and . . . Happy New Year!


Stuart


Stuart A. Forsyth
forsyth@usa.net


UP Livestock Dispatch Cars

FRANK PEACOCK
 

Tim, The UP began the rebuilding program for the S-40-10 Livestock Dispatch (with an "i" not an "e") in 1947 and continued in 1948. I think that the speed with which these trains (the DLS) got to the LA basin had more to do with the UP's expediting them over the road than it did with either roller bearings or the use of Diesels. Mark can probably add to this better than I can. There were, by the way, 470 cars rebuilt. By the end of 1947 I seem to remember that there were less than 200 on the road. I would like to see some photos of LA&SL stock trains. I seem to be a bit light in these. FHP (FHPeacock)


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Based on several meetings with the president of Iron City brewery in Pittsburgh, back in the '60s, I learned many facilities (IC included) continued to brew, but extracted the alcohol, leaving legal "near beer" and selling the left over alcohol for medical or medicinal uses. Those with the right connections could purchase both components and inject the alcohol back into the bottles through the corks. They also made root beer, since the facilities were adaptable. None-the-less, many breweries folded in that era.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________
From: Eric <eric@hansmanns.org>

  The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny's quote is a poetic rendition of "See Figure 1".

I've always thought "Rule 1" was BS. I love Denny's quote : )

Clark Propst

Each one of lives in a distinctive modeling world of our own vicarious imagination, a world that others question at their own peril.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: True Line new "Fowler" pictures

devansprr
 

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric@...> wrote:

Fenton,

Well, that depends. First, it depends upon what is being displayed at the TTL website. As the only painted models are of Canadian Pacific cars, then I assume these follow the design with the five-foot wide doors. I do not know if the Canadian National had any of these narrow door cars or kept to the six-foot wide door cars.

The US roads seemed to have rostered cars with six-foot wide doors. These included the Erie, NC&StL, and Grand Trunk. Many are illustrated at the Westerfield Models site:
https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=39

A few other lines rostered the 36-foot Fowler/Dominion design box car. The NKP absorbed a batch when it bought up the Toledo, St Louis & Western. I also found this Wabash car that seems similar. Can anyone confirm that this followed the Fowler/Dominion design?
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/wab75699asw.jpg

BTW, Canadian National is one of the roads listed at the TTL website for this product, so maybe a six foot door version will also be produced.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

List,

There may be cause for optimism. The TRL site shows three cars - a stock and two different box cars. The painted CP model has a steel door that is clearly narrower than the panels - so a 5' door. The undecorated model has a wood door (vertical boards), that is clearly wider than the adjacent panels - likely a 6 foot door.

So there appears to be two sets of box car tooling, since the five and six foot door cars would need different width side panels.

Would this suggest that at least a few of the US owned 36' Fowler boxcars with 6 foot doors might soon become available?

Good news for a WWII modeler since over 10% of the US box car fleet was still 36' during WWII!

After talking to some of the manufacturers at Cocoa Beach last January, it sounded like a well planned out, multi-part, slide-out (?) tooling design would support producing cars with two different sides without incurring anywhere near a doubling of tooling cost. So hopefully TRL has leveraged this concept and will provide both models (and maybe BLI has thought this through on the NYC box cars and can change out the roof tooling for a future, WWII era run....)

Dave Evans


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Clark Propst
 

I've always thought "Rule 1" was BS. I love Denny's quote : )

Clark Propst


Each one of lives in a distinctive modeling world of our own vicarious imagination, a world that others question at their own peril.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Stock car reloading - was CN Stock Cars in the USA

Tim O'Connor
 

Mark

When did the UP introduce the roller bearing equipped UP "Despatch"
stock cars into service? There are photos of nearly solid trains of
these on the LA&SL in this time period, presumably on expedited schedules.
I wonder if the UP was reloading stock into these cars at this time to
be able to run the trains faster -- I seem to recall these special
trains were able to skip at least one rest stop, perhaps Las Vegas?

Tim O'Connor



I have yet to come across any sort of "rule" that governed this, I believe it was more of a convenience issue. On the Union Pacific, I can tell you that the tendency was to reload livestock back into the same cars following the rest period for the animals at intermediate points. Here's how it normally worked. Assume a group of CNW & CMO stock cars was headed to Los Angeles with Iowa hogs around 1950. Without unusual delays, they'd have been unloaded at either Cheyenne or Laramie for rest. That was all the further they could travel (within the normal 36 hour maximum captivity limit). After the 5+ hours of required rest, they would have been reloaded in the same cars and their journey would have continued to their next rest stop, usually Ogden or Salt Lake City if no en-route delays were encountered. Same deal there � rest & reload into the same cars. Once unloaded at their LA destination, if there wasn't a need for DD stock cars to handle livestock eastward at any point en
-route, the CNW & Omaha cars would have run empty back east to their Council Bluffs / Omaha interchanges.

You can see these movement patterns clearly by reviewing UP conductor's train books - the vast majority of "Midwestern Road" cars (CNW, CMO, IC, Q etc) that were commonly seen moving livestock westward across the UP system would normally return east empty; SP stock cars from the west moved eastward with animals & typically returned empty; only the "home road" UP stock cars could regularly be seen handling livestock in both directions.

I do recall one exception to this. There was an SP car handling sheep eastward from Willows, California that was turned back west at Green River, WY (where the animals had been released for rest). The reason for that was not noted but I suppose it was a mechanical issue with the car. The animals were reloaded into a UP car there & it appeared to create a huge administrative mess, at least that's the way they made it seem based upon the volume of commentary written on the conductor's paperwork. Destination for the sheep was North Bergen, NJ by the way, via Council Bluffs & Chicago...

Take care,
Mark Amfahr


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 29, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

I'm wondering what are the most obvious changes required to back
date these
cars to 1946? Do I need to change the roof? I'm reading plenty of
older
e-mails in the archives, but they tend to use vague language about
dates
when the roofs started to be replaced, - hence my doubts. I
suppose the
re-building was done over a period of time, so would need to get
some sort
of handle on the earliest number series converted as well. If this
has
already been discussed, I'd be pleased to re-read the old e-mail if
I could
find it!
Rob, the NYC spec. 486 box cars began to be rebuilt with new roofs
ca. 1940, and continued to receive new roofs through ca. 1950; some
of the last cars to receive new roofs got diagonal panel, not
rectangular panel, Murphy roofs. AB brakes were applied at the same
time, if the car had not already been so equipped. Cars that
received new roofs in the early '40s kept their original wood running
boards, but most cars got steel grid running boards when re-roofed.
Cars of all number series were upgraded when they came into the shops
for other than minor repairs. So the answer to your specific
question is, in 1946 some cars (perhaps roughly half) would have had
the features represented on the model but others would not.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Stock car reloading

Tim O'Connor
 

That would make a very interesting addition to a model railroad
layout, a stock layover area in a large classification yard where
foreign cars come in loaded, and leave empty, and home road stock
cars do the opposite...

Tim O'Connor

We've been told in previous discussions that it was very COMMON
to reload stock into the cars of the home road doing the resting, and
send the foreign empties home. Either way, the reloading cars had to
be well CLEANED and with fresh bedding. I would think this might be
especially commonplace with Canadian empties in the U.S., unless there
was a local car shortage.

Tony Thompson


Re: Car door sealing - was True Line new "Fowler" pictures

Eric Hansmann
 

I'm glad the images come in handy for you Don.

The cars are spotted at a building that was a brewery. If you scroll up on the larger image you can see the bricks spell out some brewing words. Of course, the image was taken in 1925 so they weren't brewing the usual stuff. Possibly they were making a malt extract there or maybe the facility was converted to a milling operation. I had a PDF of lineside W&LE industries inventoried during a 1940 inspection trip, but I can't seem to find it right now. I suspect the CP cars have shipped a specialized grain to Canton, Ohio.

BTW, I have another period W&LE image with an ERIE Dominion car in the background. It seems to have a shallow fishbelly sidesill, which I assume was applied to strengthen the car.

Eric


Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <riverman_vt@...> wrote:
I cannot thank you enough for posting these two photos, Eric, particularly the view looking northward. A long interest in what are more properly called Dominion Cars, less than 10% of the 75,000 +- of which were construced having used the Fowler patent, not withstanding, what REALLY interests me in the photo is the car door seemingly sealed with some sort of heavy paper. Presumedly this was to keep the lading as clean as possible but other than newsprint what might the lading have been???? I have seen examples of this use of what I presume was a heavy paper for years but never in a photo good enough to post and raise question about. Thus the value of this one to me. In all the carloading manuals I have looked at, or have
acquired, over the years not one bit of documentation of this practice has been found. Blocking for pipes, tractors and such I have plenty of but not doors sealed with paper in this fashion. What do we
(collectively) really know about the practice.

As an aside for both you and Tim O'Connor it must be pointed out
that Armand Premo's postings on the Dominion cars are absolutely correct in all respects. My own photos, however, indicate that the
Dominion cars were much more prevalent on CNR-CV routings through New England by 1950 than on CPR routings with the possible exception of the CPR "Short Line" thorugh Maine. Given a moment after New Year's Day I will try to find a few car numbers for you and leave it to the two of you to look up car groups for accuracy of door widths, end construction and such. A reminder may be in order for this. But that cars were far more common than most seem to realize, with such cars being owned by both the Erie and NC&StL as well.

Happy New Year, Don Valentine


Re: BLI New York Central System Box Car Models

Tim O'Connor
 

Denny

Yeah when it comes to the actual dates I am willing to be pretty
approximate with them -- 50's and 60's. The important thing is that
a car that is more than 2-3 years old shows evidence of being
reweighed, and lubricated. I can't read them anyway from three
feet away. :-) To say nothing of the lack of appropriate decals.

Tim O'Connor

Incompatible reweigh dates: Well, in my world of railroading imagination of any given moment, the reweigh dates may well be whatever suits me, if I even think about them! If the rare observer is rude enough to question them, I have no issue because he/she/it will not be back, on the sound presumption that a repeat visit would not be desired anyway.

Each one of lives in a distinctive modeling world of our own vicarious imagination, a world that others question at their own peril.

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

87001 - 87020 of 192619