Date   

Re: General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Al Campbell
 

Hello Jim: For a pretty good education about tank cars, of course
Kaminski's book is one of the best. A prized book in my library is: John D.
Rockefeller's Secret Weapon by Albert Z. Carr. This gives a great history of tank
cars right from the beginning. Delves in deeply into Union Tank Car Line.
Regards, Al Campbell


Re: Hooker Tank Car Colors/Paint Schemes

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 12, 2012, at 4:01 AM, Steve Hoxie wrote:
Richard--In the July 2003 Railroad Model Journal, you had an
article published entitled "ICC 105 11,000-Gallon High-Pressure
Tank Cars From Atlas HO and N Scale Models." In that article on p.
51 two of these cars in Hooker schemes are shown. This article is
available online; see

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/173/12577/july-2003-page-51

The caption for SHPX 1291 states:

"By April 1952, when SHPX 1291 was built for anhydrous ammonia
service, Hooker had adopted an even more colorful paint and
lettering scheme with black underframes, bottom shells, and center
bands; orange tank shell and ends; and black-and-white stenciling.
This car was at Tacoma, Washington when photographed in March 1955."

Your response to Jim prompts a couple of questions:

1. Is April 1952 not an accurate date for the adoption of the
pictured "more colorful" scheme?

2. Although you do not say so explicitly in your article, I took
the implication that the Atlas model was reasonably accurate, at
least certainly better than "no models for any of these cars that
are even remotely accurate." Is this not the case?
Steve, it's always embarrassing to be proved wrong by a published
source, and especially so when the published source is one you've
written yourself. I'd forgotten all about that article. After
revisiting the evidence cited there, I can confirm that the orange
and black Hooker scheme was adopted at least as early as 4/52, though
many Hooker cars would have kept their earlier P/L scheme for some
time after that.

The Atlas model is, at best, a stand-in, as it represents an AC&F
11,000 gal. ICC-105 and in the period covered by this list the
largest Hooker ICC-105s were 10,000 gal. cars (and very few of
those). That may not sound like much of a difference, but the size
and proportions of the 11K tanks are visibly different from those of
the 10K tanks. In the forseeable future, we're unlikely to get
models of 3K and 4K ICC-105s or of cars with acid domes, but 6K
ICC-105s were in liquid chlorine and similar service for many private
owners, as well as Hooker, so RTR styrene models of those cars are
certainly possible.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: 3-D printer

Tim O'Connor
 

Too funny! Computers without electronics! Imagine that. Now we can
make disposable iPhones and PC's at home entirely from resin! Model
locomotives too!

Tim O'

tim you can build a 3-d printer here link to get you started
http://www.reprapltd.com/shop/

tom cataldo
hemet,ca


Re: 3-D printer

tjcataldo
 

tim you can build a 3-d printer here link to get you started

http://www.reprapltd.com/shop/

tom cataldo
hemet,ca

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>wrote:

**



I don't recall anyone posting about this tiny resin printer yet.
It's accurate to 0.05 mm -- that's about 1/64" in HO scale!

http://www.reghardware.com/2011/05/18/smaller_3d_printers_in_production/

Tim O'Connor



Moody's

Bill Welch
 

I know some of you have used certain Moody's publications as research
tools and I know their publication go back into the early 20th
Century. When I search for this publication at my local library,
several different titles come up, apparently for different types of
businesses. Would someone advise me on what to look for in my search
and when I go to the central library. I am only looking for a way to
get started.

I am interested in RR related companies and companies involved in
shipping produce, especially one named American Fruit Growers (AFG),
a company with produce houses in many parts of the country and sold
their produce under the "Blue Goose" label. Any advice will be welcomed.

Thank you!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@tampabay.rr.com


Re: General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Jim Betz
 

Bruce,

Thanks for the 'outline'. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Dave,

It turns out that Tank Car Journeys has been re-printed and is
available thru sources such as Amazon!
- Jim


Re: Hooker Tank Car Colors/Paint Schemes

Jim Betz
 

Richard,

Thanks - that is far more than I expected. I have researched
available models since that post and have come to the conclusion
that all of the mfgrs of HO equipment just 'had to have a Hooker'
in their list of tank cars. It's almost like one guy after
another went thru the process of "gee, the name is 'Hooker', and
the paint scheme is noticeable ... we just have to do one of
these!" Of course when that decision was made very few of them
went to the trouble of researching the actual tank cars that
Hooker owned ... instead they did a quick rework of the paint
scheme to fit what ever car they wanted to use - and went into
production. So most of the cars lettered for Hooker are pretty
far from the mark.
And - also "of course" - there have probably been a 1000 times
more cars produced as models than ever existed in real. Heck, I
even op'ed on a layout last fall that had an entire train of
Hooker cars as one of the scheduled trains for the op. Go figure.

Thanks for the info. I'm also interested in the '52 -vs- '55
answer that Steve asked about.
- Jim


More on Tank Cars

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
 

I started reading Standard Tank Car Journeys and found out that it is a
sequel to All About Tank Cars. The latter book is also available for free
download from Google Books at:



http://books.google.com/books?id=-GBCAAAAYAAJ
<http://books.google.com/books?id=-GBCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=all+ab
out+tank+cars&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dk3T8ShH6OIsQLl9rCQAg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage
&q=all%20about%20tank%20cars&f=false>
&printsec=frontcover&dq=all+about+tank+cars&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dk3T8ShH6OIsQLl9r
CQAg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=all%20about%20tank%20cars&f=false



Probably the easiest way to navigate to it is Google Google Books, then
enter All About Tank Cars in the search box, then download the pdf by
clicking the little gear at the upper right of the frame.



Nelson


Re: General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

RICH CHAPIN
 

Jim,



"Standard Tank Car Journeys" can be viewed/downloaded from this site



http://www.archive.org/details/standardtankcarj00stanrich



Rich Chapin

Basking Ridge, NJ


Re: Hooker Tank Car Colors/Paint Schemes

pennsylvania1954
 

Richard--In the July 2003 Railroad Model Journal, you had an article published entitled "ICC 105 11,000-Gallon High-Pressure Tank Cars From Atlas HO and N Scale Models." In that article on p. 51 two of these cars in Hooker schemes are shown. This article is available online; see

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/173/12577/july-2003-page-51

The caption for SHPX 1291 states:

"By April 1952, when SHPX 1291 was built for anhydrous ammonia service, Hooker had adopted an even more colorful paint and lettering scheme with black underframes, bottom shells, and center bands; orange tank shell and ends; and black-and-white stenciling. This car was at Tacoma, Washington when photographed in March 1955."

Your response to Jim prompts a couple of questions:

1. Is April 1952 not an accurate date for the adoption of the pictured "more colorful" scheme?

2. Although you do not say so explicitly in your article, I took the implication that the Atlas model was reasonably accurate, at least certainly better than "no models for any of these cars that are even remotely accurate." Is this not the case?

Thanks in advance for clearing this up!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Jim, I'm sorry to be slow in responding to your questions, as they
required some research.

Re: paint and lettering. In the 1930s through early '50s, Hooker
cars were painted black with white lettering. In the mid-1950s, the
orange and black scheme was introduced with a black band at the
center of the tank, large white HOOKER lettering shaded with black at
the left, and trapezoidal Hooker logo to the right. The earliest
photo I have showing this scheme is 1955, and that's probably when it
was first introduced, as it was colorful enough to attract the
immediate attention of rail photographers.

With regard to car types, the 1/53 ORER shows only two ordinary TM
type tank cars; all the rest were high pressure cars of various sizes
(3K, 6K, 10K gals.) for liquid chlorine or propane service or rubber
lined cars with acid domes of various sizes (4K, 6K, 8K gals) for
acid service. With the possible exception of the two TM type cars,
there are no models for any of these cars that are even remotely
accurate, though the colorful post-'55 Hooker color scheme has
prompted several manufacturers to produce foobies.

At present, the tank car sources on the internet are scattered and
not very helpful, but there are several very useful books: Ed
Kaminski's on AC&F tank cars and on AC&F cars in general, both
published by Signature Press, and Ted Culotta's Steam Era Freight Car
Reference Manual Vol. 2 on tank cars published by Speedwitch Media.


Re: 3-D printer

Jack Mullen
 

Schuyler,

I suspect Tim is thinking a bit farther outside the box. Think about printing not only rivets, but, say, sides with printed stakes for any of the hoppers and gons that have never been made. Or one of the more or less uncommon boxcar roofs. Any basically flat surface with raised features.

Jack Mullen

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Tim, the answer is in your own post! Sure, take styrene and add the details
using Archer weld lines and rivets for all those details. Most everything
else I can think of is free-standing 3D stuff, available as parts.



Schuyler




The process is already good enough for rivets -- as Archer has proved and
Tom Madden with his Pullman car rivets long before that.

Is it possible to start with a substrate of smooth styrene and add resin
detail on top of that? I wonder if that technique could be used to rapidly
produce masters for box car and reefer sides?

Tim O'Connor








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Re: C&NW/CStPM&O Drawings - Lake States Railroad Historical Society

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Thanks, Dave, you got this on the list before I did; I asked the same
questions and got the same answer. As I said before, it's just great to
know that the list of the drawings is available for short money. To be able
to GET the drawings is the real point, and the LSRHS is to be commended for
doing this.



Schuyler



They're selling drawings too, it's just not mentioned on the web page. For
freight cars, they have only 89 drawings for the CNW but over 1100 for the
CMO. Individual drawing prices vary by the size of the original, ranging
from $5 for 9x13 inches to $25 for 36x106 inches. The size of each drawing
is included on the index CD and the reproduction size is 1:1 with the
original.

About 15,000 of the total 20,000 individual drawings are for steam
locomotives, about 1,400 for passenger cars, as I said before, ~1,200 for
freight and the rest are of this and that.

In addition to the reproduction fee they ask for $15 for research and
postage and would prefer not to handle requests of more than 10 items at a
time (they'll help w/15 if you show up in person in which case assistance in
increments of $5 per 5 dwgs).

Dave Nelson








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Re: SP bulkhead flat cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

I wrote (in part):
The SP bulkhead flat car models (HO scale) available from
the X2011 NMRA Convention site (from last year's NMRA National in
Sacramento) are currently only listed as an 8-pack of cars, but
single cars will be available with a week.
For balance and completeness, I should also mention that these
same flat cars, both as kits and ready-to-run, are available directly
from the SP Historical & Technical Society on their website, at:

http://www.sphtsstore.org/servlet/the-Models–Misc/Categories

Scroll down to the RTR models.
My involvement:: I was a member of the X2011 organizing
committee, and also am a member of the Board of the SPH&TS, so am not
a disinterested poster about either group.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: C&NW/CStPM&O Drawings - Lake States Railroad Historical Society

Dave Nelson
 

They're selling drawings too, it's just not mentioned on the web page. For
freight cars, they have only 89 drawings for the CNW but over 1100 for the
CMO. Individual drawing prices vary by the size of the original, ranging
from $5 for 9x13 inches to $25 for 36x106 inches. The size of each drawing
is included on the index CD and the reproduction size is 1:1 with the
original.

About 15,000 of the total 20,000 individual drawings are for steam
locomotives, about 1,400 for passenger cars, as I said before, ~1,200 for
freight and the rest are of this and that.

In addition to the reproduction fee they ask for $15 for research and
postage and would prefer not to handle requests of more than 10 items at a
time (they'll help w/15 if you show up in person in which case assistance in
increments of $5 per 5 dwgs).

Dave Nelson


Re: General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Dave Nelson
 

There is a 60+ year old book you might look for -- Tank Car Journeys -- that
covers the types of ladings commonly found in tank cars in steam era. I
think it was written by GATX. I found it interesting (but then that's me --
think family rolling eyes and nodding affirmatively). Some photos.


Re: Hooker Tank Car Colors/Paint Schemes

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Jim wrote:

Hi all,

Back in 2008 there was a thread about this. But it doesn't
answer my questions ... ;-(

So is there a 'reference' that covers the 'color scheme phases'
and car types for the Hooker tanks? There are at least 4 (and
probably more) different production models of Hooker tanks. I'm
interested in knowing when the various paint schemes were
introduced and also when the different car types were introduced
(painted for Hooker).
If there is no reference book, online source(s), or other
reference material ... can someone enlighten me on these
questions (I'm willing to do my own research - I'm just hoping
that someone on the list has already done it and has it 'at
the ready' as it were) ...
- Jim
Jim, I'm sorry to be slow in responding to your questions, as they required some research.

Re: paint and lettering. In the 1930s through early '50s, Hooker cars were painted black with white lettering. In the mid-1950s, the orange and black scheme was introduced with a black band at the center of the tank, large white HOOKER lettering shaded with black at the left, and trapezoidal Hooker logo to the right. The earliest photo I have showing this scheme is 1955, and that's probably when it was first introduced, as it was colorful enough to attract the immediate attention of rail photographers.

With regard to car types, the 1/53 ORER shows only two ordinary TM type tank cars; all the rest were high pressure cars of various sizes (3K, 6K, 10K gals.) for liquid chlorine or propane service or rubber lined cars with acid domes of various sizes (4K, 6K, 8K gals) for acid service. With the possible exception of the two TM type cars, there are no models for any of these cars that are even remotely accurate, though the colorful post-'55 Hooker color scheme has prompted several manufacturers to produce foobies.

At present, the tank car sources on the internet are scattered and not very helpful, but there are several very useful books: Ed Kaminski's on AC&F tank cars and on AC&F cars in general, both published by Signature Press, and Ted Culotta's Steam Era Freight Car Reference Manual Vol. 2 on tank cars published by Speedwitch Media.


SP bulkhead flat cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

The SP bulkhead flat car models (HO scale) available from the X2011 NMRA Convention site (from last year's NMRA National in Sacramento) are currently only listed as an 8-pack of cars, but single cars will be available with a week.
Also coming soon are the wine tank cars which were sold at that convention. Like the bulkhead flats, they are entirely prototype, without any convention logo or other non-prototype lettering.
Here's a link to the on-line store for the convention:

http://www.x2011west.org/cart/

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Bruce Smith
 

Jim,

A few "rules" for steam era tank cars
1) Most tank cars were privately owned, not railroad owned. The numbers are in the archives
2) Almost all tank cars built prior to the end of WWII were riveted and very few had capacities above 10,000 gallons
3) Multidome tanks were a small minority and were either used to haul multiple products to one distributor or to simplify deliveries to multiple small distributors.
4) UTLX introduced the "frameless" tank car around 1900. It was not well accepted and so most of these "Van Dyke" (search the archives) were out of service by WWII. Modern frameless tank cars are a post steam era phenomenon.
5) Prior to WWII, many tank cars were in serviuce between the oil fields and refineries (although a fair number were also used to deliver refined products. Following WWII, when the major pipelines were built, the vast majority of tank cars were in service between the refineries and their customers.
6) Most of us modelers who are a little crazy about tank cars usually don't think about their exact length (40" is getting long actually) but by the specific model or type that they represent as there was a signifcant diversity in the tank car fleet. One great exapmle of length vs volume is the AC&F type 21 (1921 design) tank car compared to its successor, the type 27 (1927 design). The type 21 frame was shorter, resulting in a larger diameter tank for the same capacity as a type 27 (the type 27 was therefore longer)
7) When you start modeling tank cars (in HO) be aware that the Tichy tank car, while a gorgeous model, is not really a model of a prototype that was built (It can be used to kitbash other cars though). There are a number of very nice models of tank cars, and if you do nothing else, you want to have a fleet that shows off the diversity of cars in use. Just like boxcars, there should be a stair-step effect.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

________________________________________
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jim [jimbetz@jimbetz.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 12:49 PM
To: Bruce F. Smith; STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Hi,

So I want to focus on tank cars - but realize that I don't
have a lot of knowledge about them.

Is there a 'reference' that I can read/study/find online?

I'm interested in answering questions such as:

How common are the 2 and 3 dome cars? Weren't these cars
'obsoleted' fairly early compared to the single domes that
were built in the same era? How late would they have run?

How early did the companies such as GATX, URTX, etc. come
into the picture and how long after they showed up on the
scene would you still expect to see considerable numbers of
cars lettered for the oil companies?

When did frameless cars start to be seen? (I think these
cars are primarily "post the STMFC era".)

It is quite common to see earlier style cars (with frame)
lettered for a specific RR ... such as ATSF or GN or whatever.
I follow the GN closely and as far as I know the tank cars
that were lettered for the GN were in captive service and
used for hauling products that were used by/consumed by the
GN itself (as in fuel, etc.). Is that a 'standard practice'
or did some roads use tank cars for "general service" (as
opposed to home road only service)?

Is there any guideline in terms of size that can be used to
easily differentiate steam era -vs- later cars? As in "most
of the tank cars in the steam era were 10k or less"? And is
there any kind of 'start date' for larger cars such as the
16k and 20k tanks.
How about in terms of car length? I don't remember seeing
pics of tank cars longer than 40ft in steam era pics.
- Jim

P.S. I -do- intend to "go to my books" and scan the pics for
examples of tank cars. What I'm looking for are a few
'rules' (albeit "fuzzy rules").





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


General guidelines about steam era tank car practices?

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

So I want to focus on tank cars - but realize that I don't
have a lot of knowledge about them.

Is there a 'reference' that I can read/study/find online?

I'm interested in answering questions such as:

How common are the 2 and 3 dome cars? Weren't these cars
'obsoleted' fairly early compared to the single domes that
were built in the same era? How late would they have run?

How early did the companies such as GATX, URTX, etc. come
into the picture and how long after they showed up on the
scene would you still expect to see considerable numbers of
cars lettered for the oil companies?

When did frameless cars start to be seen? (I think these
cars are primarily "post the STMFC era".)

It is quite common to see earlier style cars (with frame)
lettered for a specific RR ... such as ATSF or GN or whatever.
I follow the GN closely and as far as I know the tank cars
that were lettered for the GN were in captive service and
used for hauling products that were used by/consumed by the
GN itself (as in fuel, etc.). Is that a 'standard practice'
or did some roads use tank cars for "general service" (as
opposed to home road only service)?

Is there any guideline in terms of size that can be used to
easily differentiate steam era -vs- later cars? As in "most
of the tank cars in the steam era were 10k or less"? And is
there any kind of 'start date' for larger cars such as the
16k and 20k tanks.
How about in terms of car length? I don't remember seeing
pics of tank cars longer than 40ft in steam era pics.
- Jim

P.S. I -do- intend to "go to my books" and scan the pics for
examples of tank cars. What I'm looking for are a few
'rules' (albeit "fuzzy rules").


Re: 3-D printer

Tim O'Connor
 

Zatso? Cool. I hope you'll bring your masters to the next meet to share.

Tim

At 2/10/2012 11:22 PM Friday, you wrote:
Tim, the answer is in your own post! Sure, take styrene and add the details
using Archer weld lines and rivets for all those details. Most everything
else I can think of is free-standing 3D stuff, available as parts.

Schuyler

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