Date   

Re: Retainers-How id they work?this

richard haave
 

The retainers for the AB brakes system had four positions:

Handle down: meant retainer was set for normal operation

Handle raised aprox 100 degrees: "HP"(high pressure),when
an automatic brake application released 20 lbs
brake cylinder pressure retained.

Handle 90 degrees: "LP" (low pressure) 10 lbs brake cyl
pressure retained after brake release.

Handle 45 degrees: "SD" (slow direct release), retained 20
lbs brk cyl pressure which released over a 86
second (IIRC) period.

When retainers required HP was the setting for loaded cars,
LP used for empties. Retainers allowed a trains brake pipe
to be restored to the feed valve setting while holding any
harmful speed increase in check. Depending on the length and
severity of the grade one or more wheel cooling stops might have to
be made before reaching the bottom.

To apply and release retainers required the brakemen walk back
and move the retainer handle on each car at the top and bottom of
grades. I believe some of the mountain railroads had a pole made
up to alliviate having to climb up and down most every car.

What about the "SD" position? Some roads prohibited using that
position. To give an example of where it was used lets go
to the CBQ Deadwood line. Going north toward Lead/Deadwood there
were several 3% descending grades, the first one was one mile
long a few miles south of Custer, the crew used this as a test
spot. If the brake pipe leakage was minimal, and a normal brake
application had the desired effect and (diesel days) you had
working dynamic brake (one SD9 could control seven 220,000lb loads
at 15 mph) the crew would then set their "SD" retainers while
stopped at Custer. Basically the formula they used was something
like this total loads minus 7 X #of SD9 + 1 car. So if you had
four units with 42 loads they'd set 15 SD retainers on the head
end. If they had an engineer the train crew didn't trust they
used "HP" with the loads.

Dick Haave
*****************

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: B&O five and six panel Superior replacement doors

pennsylvania1954
 

Speedwitch had very good decals for the M26 series, D117, if you can get them.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

--- In STMFC@..., cepropst@... wrote:


Red Caboose still lists undec kits. Most important. Are there any decals available for B&O cars that those doors were used on?Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "jim_mischke" <jmischke@> wrote:



The old Red Caboose X29/ARA boxcar kits had a choice of doors on the sprues, Youngstown and ARA doors. Some call the latter Creco door, similar but this may not be correct. Anyway, both doors choices are entirely appropriate for B&O M-26 boxcars.

In 1942, B&O issued drawings for replacement Superior doors for their M-26 boxcars. These were very common as well, in both five and six panel variations.


Re: Retainers-How did they work?

John King
 

The B&O Cumberland Div. timetable dated 9/27/37 refers to high and low pressure positions on the retaining valves. The high pressure position to be used on loaded coal trains and the low pressure position to be used on empty coal trains.

Is someone familiar with this? My guess is the position determined the amount of braking when the retainers were holding during the recharge.

John King

--- In STMFC@..., "jdziedzic08802" <jerdz@...> wrote:



Good article from Jack and other well-informed responses. I'll add that employee timetable special instructions often specified where crews stopped trains to turn up retainers, how many retainers to turn up given tonnage handled, where running brake tests were required, where stops were required to cool wheels, etc.

Air braking is a sublime art. The difference in engineers: any engineer can always make 'em go like hell; good engineers can always make 'em stop like heaven.


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@> wrote:

My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Cincinnati Ohio B&O c. 1937 Freight Car Questions

Miles C
 

I'm modeling Cincinnati Ohio in the late 1930's, specifically the Baltimore & Ohio. I'd like to know what major types of traffic were found in and around there and which foreign road cars were most prevalent on the B&O at the time.

If anybody could point me in the right direction as to some accurate HO scale late 1930's coal hoppers for the B&O, that would be great.

Also, how many foreign road coal hoppers would the B&O have allowed to operate among its fleet, and from what roads?

Does anybody know what secondary trains operated through Norwood, OH in that time, or where I could find that information?

Where can I find information about this region in this era? I typically model the Espee in the 1950's and have done a lot of research there, but this is an entirely new direction and I definitely need some guidance.

Cheers!
-Miles


Re: Retainers-How id they work?

Jerry Dziedzic
 

Good article from Jack and other well-informed responses. I'll add that employee timetable special instructions often specified where crews stopped trains to turn up retainers, how many retainers to turn up given tonnage handled, where running brake tests were required, where stops were required to cool wheels, etc.

Air braking is a sublime art. The difference in engineers: any engineer can always make 'em go like hell; good engineers can always make 'em stop like heaven.


Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ

--- In STMFC@..., Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


GN 66074

Chad Boas
 

All, I have added a couple pictures of the straight sill flat to the flat car photos section.
Chad Boas


Re: Retainers-How id they work?

O Fenton Wells
 

Bill, I am so glad you took the time to ask this questin as I said I wanted
an answer as well and it looks like, thanks to you we have some excellent
ones.
Fenton Wells
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 4:50 PM, lnbill <fgexbill@...> wrote:

**


I was thinking about Saluda as I wrote my question Fenton. I am counting
on one of our more technically informed members for a good answer when they
have time.

Bill Welch


--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Bill, I don't know the answer to your question and in fact I am trying to
learn the same thing because it was a standard procedure for all trains
at
the top of Saluda grade to have the retainers set, in fact some were set
in
the Ashville yard prior to the train departing. When the train was safely
down the mountain the retainers were set back to their normal position. I
am preparing a clinic on the Southerns operations up and down Saluda and
would like to know more about this subject for the presentation.
I have read several accident reports in which the retainers were not all
set on the train before decent and in other cases where cars were added
after Ashville and those retainers not being set. The train itself was
supposed to sit short of the down grade and an air test performed that
was
not always done either.
Fenton Wells
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...>wrote:

**


My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...






--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


Re: Retainers - how did they work?

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Larry Castle" <sp1930s@...> wrote:

Dear list

Sticking my fat neck out...

In a discussion I had with a retired SP brakeman friend, he said that how many cars needed their retainers set was dictated by the dispatcher.
Pre 1960?

Dennis


Retainers - how did they work?

sp1930s
 

Dear list

Sticking my fat neck out...

In a discussion I had with a retired SP brakeman friend, he said that how many cars needed their retainers set was dictated by the dispatcher. This brakeman occasionally worked on the SP's Natron Cutoff, or Cascade Line, in Oregon and between Cascade Summit and Oakridge it is 44 miles of continuous 1.8 percent grade. The ETT could not know what the tonnage of the train was, it could be all empty flats or mostly loads. All trains stopped about half way down at Wicopee to cool the wheels. They did not change which cars had retainers set as all of the train's wheels had been cooled. He also told of not stopping a train at the bottom of the grade to release the retainers. A few miles from Oakridge the brakemen went out on the cars and "knocked down the retainers on the fly". Down grade speed seldom approached even as much as 20 mph.


Larry Castle - Seattle


Re: Retainers-How id they work?

Mike Brock
 

In the book, Union Pacific Steam Big Boy Portraits, pg 78, the caption states that all east bound frt trains were required to stop at Granite Canon to cool wheels and make a walking inspection. Two photos show this. To the west of Granite was 12 miles to the summit at Sherman of which about 7 miles had a 1.55% max grade with one mile of 1%. To the east was about 9 more miles of 1.55% downgrade eastbound. Op session folks might want to add some of these rules to their sessions.

Speaking of that, since I model Buford and other parts of this grade, I think I'll add a requirement for eastbound frt trains to cool their heel...uh...wheels during my Prototype Rails op session. Some say...why bother adding the rule?

Incidentally, since the Saluda grade was mentioned by Fenton Wells, I'll note that way into the future...sometime during 1988-9 [?] [ I used my time machine I guess ] I video taped ex N&W 1218 on an excursion stopping at Ridge Crest, NC, just east of Asheville, at which time the train stopped for a short time and set its brakes for an air test before heading down the tortuous 11 miles to Old Fort at the bottom of the grade. This test only lasted for about a minute but the braking apparently was enough to cause 1218 to lose its footing on the remaining 1.4% upgrade went it started. BTW, the line between Old Fort and Ridge Crest...to me...offers much more than the more famous Saluda grade...from a photographic perpective.

Mike Brock


Re: FS NEW HO Decal Set from Mount Vernon Shops!

Andy Harman
 

At 01:55 PM 2/17/2012 -0800, you wrote:

Two different sets have been done Which cover the early as-built schemes
(pre-1953), and the later billboard schemes (post-1953). These are great for those that have an unpainted Overland car to do, or would like to
use these as an alternative to the decals provided in the F&C kit.
Anybody ever try to build the Red Ball kit of this car? Comes with flat die cast panels you get to form into the wagon top. I bought the kit in 79 I think. I get it out and look at it once in a while, then put it away again. Kinda makes me appreciate the simplicity of an F&C kit..... :-)

Andy


Re: Retainers-How did they work?

Bill Welch
 

Jack, thank you, this is very informative and I cannot wait to go back and read the entire article about braking and brakes.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

<My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
<his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
<very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
<Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
<involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
<understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
<the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
<to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
<it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
<the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
<train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
<another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
<mean--were the retainers off?

Bill...check out:

http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.shtml

and scroll down to retainers. I'll let others comment on the details you ask
about.

A YV brakeman who worked on the log trains told me that the crew set
retainers on the loaded log cars before they departed Incline for the lumber
mill. I'm sure that they didn't set them on all of the cars, just some of
them. (I wonder if it was more effective to set every other car, only some
on the end of the train, etc.)

When I was building a Proto48 model of one of the log cars, I noticed that
the retainer was mounted to the end sill of the cars (B end) in the photos
of the cars at the factory. However, in service photos showed that it was no
longer there and apparently moved...my guess was that the end sill position
proved too prone to damage. However, when I asked my brakeman friend about
it, he couldn't remember where the valve was located! Okay, it was 60 years
earlier but I had to give up and mount it to one of the stringers under the
end of the car...seemed logical.

Jack Burgess


FS NEW HO Decal Set from Mount Vernon Shops!

John S. Frantz
 

To Whom It May Concern:
 
Mount Vernon Shops is happy to announce the introduction of a
new HO Decal Set this week to its line.
 
HO Scale B&O N34 2-bay wagon-top covered hopper decals.

Two different sets have been done  Which cover the early as-built schemes
(pre-1953), and the later billboard schemes (post-1953). These are great for those that have an unpainted Overland car to do, or would like to
use these as an alternative to the decals provided in the F&C kit.

 
For more information, follow this link: http://www.mountvernonshops.com/N34.html
 
If anyone has any questions regarding the above product or
any others listed on my website please contact me at the following email: jfrantz@...
 
Thank You and Best Regards,
John Frantz
 
Owner,
Mount Vernon Shops
York, PA
 
York, PA
Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Retainers-How did they work?

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

Bill...check out:

http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.shtml

and scroll down to retainers. I'll let others comment on the details you ask
about.
A couple comments in addition to Mr. Krug's text:

IIRC, in our era retainers only had two positions... ON and OFF.

There was a danger beyond making multiple brake applications on a long grade (otherwise known as "pissing away your air"). Brake cylinders leak. As long as the brakes are applied via a reduction of the train pipe pressure, the car reservoirs are not being recharged. So, as long as the brakes are applied, the cylinders leak, and are replenished from the reservoirs, until the reservoirs are empty, and then guess what? No air :(

The solution in the days before dynamic brakes, was to "cycle" the air: taking an application, holding it for so many minuets, then releasing it and allowing the reservoirs to recharge for so many minutes. It's during this recharge period that the cars with retainers set are expected to keep train speed in check.

The special instructions of the employee timetable would dictate how many cars, or what percentage of cars, needed retainers set. The train would stop, and the two brakemen would start, one from each end, and set the required number. In our era, the retainer valves were mounted up near the roof, so they were easier to set by walking the car tops. I suspect that where there were a lot of low cars interspersed with the house cars, that whole blocks got skipped, and retainers were set on whichever cars were most convenient... after all, the slack is going to be bunched by the retainers on the head end anyway.

The cars with retainers set never had their brakes released, so those wheels got HOT... there are more than enough stories of trains coming down hills with rings of fire around the wheels. This is a recipe for developing thermal cracks in cast iron wheels, so most roads limited the amount of time retainers could be set, and required a mandatory wheel cooling period. During the cooling period at the bottom of the grade, the brakemen again walked the train to "turn down" all the retainers, and inspect the wheels and brakes.

This was by no means a high speed operation.

Dennis


Re: Retainers-How id they work?

Bill Welch
 

I was thinking about Saluda as I wrote my question Fenton. I am counting on one of our more technically informed members for a good answer when they have time.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@..., O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Bill, I don't know the answer to your question and in fact I am trying to
learn the same thing because it was a standard procedure for all trains at
the top of Saluda grade to have the retainers set, in fact some were set in
the Ashville yard prior to the train departing. When the train was safely
down the mountain the retainers were set back to their normal position. I
am preparing a clinic on the Southerns operations up and down Saluda and
would like to know more about this subject for the presentation.
I have read several accident reports in which the retainers were not all
set on the train before decent and in other cases where cars were added
after Ashville and those retainers not being set. The train itself was
supposed to sit short of the down grade and an air test performed that was
not always done either.
Fenton Wells
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...>wrote:

**


My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...




Re: Retainers-How id they work?

O Fenton Wells
 

Bill, I don't know the answer to your question and in fact I am trying to
learn the same thing because it was a standard procedure for all trains at
the top of Saluda grade to have the retainers set, in fact some were set in
the Ashville yard prior to the train departing. When the train was safely
down the mountain the retainers were set back to their normal position. I
am preparing a clinic on the Southerns operations up and down Saluda and
would like to know more about this subject for the presentation.
I have read several accident reports in which the retainers were not all
set on the train before decent and in other cases where cars were added
after Ashville and those retainers not being set. The train itself was
supposed to sit short of the down grade and an air test performed that was
not always done either.
Fenton Wells
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...>wrote:

**


My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
mean--were the retainers off?

Thanks!
Bill Welch
2225 Nursery Road; #20-104
Clearwater, FL 33764-7622
727.470.9930
fgexbill@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




--
Fenton Wells
3047 Creek Run
Sanford NC 27332
919-499-5545
srrfan1401@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Retainers-How did they work?

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

<My lunchtime reading today included Andy Sperandeo's article about
<his railroad in the 2012 edition of "Model Railroad Planning." In his
<very well written narrative about the decisions he has made for his
<Cajon Pass layout, he refers to instances where serious grades were
<involved that trains would stop to set the retainers. Although I
<understand what Andy says that this action "kept the air pressure in
<the cylinders when the brakes were released," I find myself wanting
<to know more about this practice. For example, about how long would
<it take a crew to do this as I assume each car required this. How was
<the retainer valve set? How many people were involved? How was the
<train's breaking effected when the retainers were set? The Andy notes
<another situation where the retainers were turned up. What did this
<mean--were the retainers off?

Bill...check out:

http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2.shtml

and scroll down to retainers. I'll let others comment on the details you ask
about.

A YV brakeman who worked on the log trains told me that the crew set
retainers on the loaded log cars before they departed Incline for the lumber
mill. I'm sure that they didn't set them on all of the cars, just some of
them. (I wonder if it was more effective to set every other car, only some
on the end of the train, etc.)

When I was building a Proto48 model of one of the log cars, I noticed that
the retainer was mounted to the end sill of the cars (B end) in the photos
of the cars at the factory. However, in service photos showed that it was no
longer there and apparently moved...my guess was that the end sill position
proved too prone to damage. However, when I asked my brakeman friend about
it, he couldn't remember where the valve was located! Okay, it was 60 years
earlier but I had to give up and mount it to one of the stringers under the
end of the car...seemed logical.

Jack Burgess


Re: Your Productivity

Chad Boas
 

Thanks, Bill
The car with the interesting break work is the 66000 straight sill car. It has a lever at each end mounted to the side sill and then connects to the truck instead of going through the cross members.
Chad

--- In STMFC@..., "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I admire your productivity Chad. I am not a customer for any of the GN flats but will anticipate the L&N car. I will look and see what photos I have.

I did note one of the GN flats had what looked like a very interesting brake lever arrangement. Can you say anything about it?

Keep up the good work!

Best regards,

Bill Welch


Re: Sunshine in March?

charles slater
 

Martin is NOT coming to California in March.
Charlie Slater
Pattern Maker

To: STMFC@...
From: jimhayes97225@...
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:38:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Sunshine in March?

I'm still sure the answer is yes but there is no notice on my Meets page.
I'm trying to find out and as soon as I do, I'll let everyone know.

Jim


On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:15 AM, Jim Hayes <jimhayes97225@...> wrote:

The answer is yes. See the Meets page on my website.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon
www.sunshinekits.com


On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 10:43 AM, brian <brianleppert@...> wrote:

**


Does anybody know if Sunshine Models will be coming out to California in
March? I'm specifically interested in Winterrail.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV







------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Your Productivity

Bill Welch
 

I admire your productivity Chad. I am not a customer for any of the GN flats but will anticipate the L&N car. I will look and see what photos I have.

I did note one of the GN flats had what looked like a very interesting brake lever arrangement. Can you say anything about it?

Keep up the good work!

Best regards,

Bill Welch

89901 - 89920 of 196937