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Re: Lumber Loads
Jeff Aley notes:
"Freight Conductor Traud, October - December 1951, Laramie WY - Rawlins WY. Of 35 trains, containing 2,384 cars, there were 242 house cars carrying lumber products, and 0 flat cars carrying lumber products. Freight Conductor ??, 1947-48, somewhere on the Overland Route. Of 32 trains, containing 1731 cars, there were 195 house cars carrying lumber products, and 37 flat cars carrying lumber products. After looking at the Traud data, I thought that Dennis' observations were nicely confirmed. After seeing the other data, I'm not as sure." The October 1987 issue of the UPHS The Streamliner [ Vol 3, number 4 ] contains an article by ex UP fireman Ernie Peyton regarding his experiences in 1950 including the run from Laramie to Rawlins. He mentions that during that period a UP lumber train experienced a problem in which a lumber load on a flat car suffered a load movement with lumber striking the windows of a passenger car in a passing streamliner. UP put a 25 mph speed limit on lumber trains [ assuming flat car lumber loads ] after that...much to Peyton's annoyance when he had to fire for such a train. It took 6 hrs and 45 minutes to travel the 117 miles...Obviously UP ran at least two such trains. Peyton did not mention the color of or type of wood involved. I'll check on my frt conductor book to see what type of cars were carrying lumber between Rawlins and Laramie in '49. My recollection is that most were house cars. Mike Brock
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Re: Lumber Loads
Donald Ford <ford.donald77@...>
Gentlemen and Ladies
In the May 1986 Mainline Modeler is an ad for Cascade Models of a GN flat 65000 series with a lumber load of dimensional lumber secured just the Tony  explained in his blog.  The stakes are lighter in color than the lumber with different colors in the lumber.  Its a B&W photo so you can't be too sure and the photo is dated 1969 Don Ford Kanab UT ________________________________ From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Lumber Loads  Dennis Storzek wrote: By the time Jack Work was writing this in the fifties, most likelyNot sure where this idea came from, Dennis, but it's strongly contradicted by photos as late as the 1980s of lumber much smaller than 6 x 6, uncovered, on flat cars. In fact, in the mid to late 1950s (Work's article was published in February 1957, but I don't know when it was written) I can't recall a single photo of COVERED lumber on flat cars. Finished wood did tend to travel in double-door box cars (when available) in the 1950s. One place you can find lots of photos of western lumber loads on flat cars is in the flat car volume of my series on SP Freight Cars. In those days the dominant wood species for timbers was Douglas Fir,Certainly a lot of Doug fir was being cut in the Northwest in the 1950s, but Ponderosa, Sugar and other pine was still being cut too. Maybe there is a new frontier in freight car modeling here: correct representation of lumber loads by species -- and we haven't even gotten to redwood yet <g>. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Re: Lumber Loads
Greg Martin
Tony writes:
It's true that model stripwood is usually quite pale. But both color and B&W photos of period lumber loads on flat cars show a pretty pale color of that lumber. The same is true of the studs and plywood at my neighborhood lumber store. I would agree stripwood should be more yellowish than white, but a very deep color would not be accurate either. Tony Thompson Tony, Those loads must obviously be side cut Douglas Fir, Western Hemlock and Sitka Spruce... and thus the very white color, but once they went through the tunnels over the Willamtte Pass and then either over the Sierra Nevada's or over Tehachapi that bright color would be pretty dirty. For those that don't understand the term "side cut" that is wood cut from the outter portion of the log and mostly sap wood. It could have a bit more wane on the edge depending on the size of the cant it came from. Greg Martin
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Re: Drawing Help
Jack Burgess
<
<A scan unless further converted is a bitmap not a vector image. You're <probably best importing it in a vector based program and drawing a new <image in another layer. < <Jerry Glow That was my first answer too and converting a bitmapped image into a raster image isn't going to be a accurate as drawing from known dimensions. But the conversion program I mentioned is a $220 program...it must be pretty good or there won't be a market for it. Adobe Illustrator also has a Auto Trace command which does the same thing although not to the accuracy we want... Jack Burgess
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Re: Lumber Loads
Greg Martin
Dennis writes
I donno, Tony, I think we are looking at a regional thing here. First off, I wasn't considering modern day wrapped loads at all; in 1960 and before those were totally nonexistent; that's a modern shipping strategy. Your view is obviously from a west coast perspective (at least as far as the SP was concerned), close to where the loads originated. My perspective is from the Midwest, close to where the lumber was consumed, and I remember very few loads of dimensional lumber on open cars, if any. I think the Jack Delano color photos taken in the Chicago area bear this out. The only thing I've ever seen on open cars that wasn't timbers was roughsawn plank for shoring. That may well be the answer... only lumber "in the rough" went on open cars, and many of those loads you refer to are relatively short hauls, going either to planing mills where the lumber will be kiln dried before finishing, or on to treatment plants, where it will become creosoted plank and timber. Either way, those sorts of loads didn't come as far east as Chicago. In my experience, these species were seldom used for rough framing, and would be turned into clear finished lumber or millwork. Once dried and finished, the wood had to be kept dry or blue stain (a fungus) would develop, which would sustainably decrease the value of the finished product. Again, a lot of this material may have come out of the initial mill as open loads, headed someplace else for drying and finishing. Dennis Although Douglas fir green today is mostly a regional "thing" it was/is still widely used but I have to admit not as much in the Chciago area other than 4x4 and larger timber. Chicago's market has been traditionally better served from Canadian mills than western mills. Dennis is correct most, not all finished lumber did ship in boxcar and was hand unloaded but with the advent of the Grelinger larger forklifts that came along in the early 50's more and more lumber loaded on flat cars. Gerlinger was best known for their Strattle buggies but moved right into the 12k+ forklift market. Gerlinger was produced in Dallas, OR. You're correct lots of nominal lumber did ship to treaters but finished lumber did as well. Most sawmills in had both sawmills and planner mills, there were plenty of end users that did have planning facilities and think about it you could ship more finished lumber in cars, flats and boxes as well. Pine, Ponderosa and Sugar, were used as roof sheathing and wall sheathing for years as well as other species. Pine studs were often a commodity before the earthquake seismic load changes that made there way into building codes anything was fair game as long as it was ALS approved and had a grade stamp or not. When I grew up in Southern California it was code to use Redwood studs in the garage as they were most always expose and that was the rationale. Often Ponderosa Pine was used as treated sill plate when it was cheaper that Hemlock just as was Southern Yellow Pine both broad and short leafed. But both Sugar and Ponderosa was more often found as "worked" Stock for moldings in 4/4 (often split to shook stock), 5/4 and larger in the furniture trade. BTW the blue stain that appears in western pine species is caused by a fungus in either the log deck or from the log pond and was found in the wood prior to planning and as Dennis says it decreases the value in the finished lumber market, but for studs, plate stock, roof and wall sheathing was a non issue. If it, blue stain, was persistant at a particular mill, and it could have been, the solution was to drain the pond and allow it to thoroughly dry out. So most "blue stain pine" made its way into the framing market although it did enjoy a true home in the finish market for interior paneling and furniture for a short period in the 1950s as well as a much bigger market in the 1970s, beyond the scope of this list. Greg Martin
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Re: Drawing Help
John H <sprinthag@...>
And, I just found out, I can a pdf as an AutoCad in my CorelDRAW X4.
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John Hagen
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote:
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Re: Drawing Help
jerryglow2
A scan unless further converted is a bitmap not a vector image. You're probably best importing it in a vector based program and drawing a new image in another layer.
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Jerry Glow
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mopac1" <mopac1@...> wrote:
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Re: Drawing Help
John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
Even my old as the hills Illustrator 10 can open pdf files albeit some newer
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file formats won't open. Then I open them using CorelDRAW and save them as Illustrator 10. Then I can export it to AutoCad. John Hagen
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clark Cooper Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:06 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Drawing Help Jack, Adobe Illustrator (CS4, at least) can open PDFs, though only one page at a time. Export to AutoCad from there. -Clark Cooper
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Re: Drawing Help
Clark Cooper
Jack,
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Adobe Illustrator (CS4, at least) can open PDFs, though only one page at a time. Export to AutoCad from there. -Clark Cooper
On Mar 13, 2012, at 6:58 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:
<PDFs are generally, if not starting from CorelDraw or Adobe Illustrator
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Re: Drawing Help
Jack Burgess
<PDFs are generally, if not starting from CorelDraw or Adobe Illustrator
<original drawings, "dumb" pictures of lines. To go into AutoCad .dwg <format these can be imported but they have no intelligence..they are not <individual lines with specific points in space. There are some <conversion <routines to convert .jpg and .pdf into vector graphics but they are not <magic. < < < <Charlie Vlk Charlie and Gene... Charlie's comment about "conversion routines" reminded me that I think Kalmbach's staff converts manually-drafted plans to Adobe Illustrator files for publication which allows them to control line weights, etc. Illustrator can also open a .jpg file and export it as either a .dwg file or .dxf file. Photoshop can convert "most" .pdf files to .jpg files. Adobe Acrobat (not the Reader) can Save As a .pdf to a .jpg format. So one approach would be to: Use Photoshop or Adobe Acrobat to convert the .pdf to a .jpg file Use Adobe Illustrator to open the .jpg and export it as a .dxf or .dwg file I have all of these programs but can't check the exporting from Illustrator since I don't have AutoCAD. I do have AutoDesk's AutoSketch which opens .dxf and .dwg files but that didn't work, possibly since I needed choose which version of AutoCAD to export to (R13. R14, or R2000). I did a quick Google search and found that AutoDWG (www.autodwg.com) will convert a .pdf file to .dwg file for $49 per file. I'd be happy to work with you to see if I can do it. Jack Burgess
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Re: Intermountain war emergency boxcars
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Armand, notice I mentioned both accuracy AND consistency. If colors vary from batch to batch, some modelers will be unhappy. Others, of course, will simply weather a little more <g>.It's difficult to mess up hopper colors <VBG> Armand Premo Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Lumber Loads
David Sieber
Group,
There was an excellent color photo of lumber flatcar loads in the February 1996 Trains magazine, showing the locomotive and first five cars of a Yreka Western train steaming trhough the outskirts of Yreka CA sometime in 1957. Behind the loco are four flatcars, all loaded with dimensioned lumber appearing smaller than 6x6 timbers, and in the middle is one PRR X31A (I think) single-door boxcar. The angle of the shot makes it difficult to discern road numbers of the cars. For those who model the late transition era, this photo also shows the metal strapping that became common starting in the mid-'50s, replacing traditional wooden blocking and bracing using vertical stakes tied together at the top with horizontal lumber or wire ties. The lumber loads themselves show color variation from very pale to light yellow tan (though as discussed several times in this group, photo color shift over time, plus the vagarities of processing and printing - especially when scanned and reprinted in a magazine - make any photo's color shades to be approximations at some level). As to the regionality of these lumber loads, the YW was only 20-25 miles south of being "Pacific Northwest;" I suspect this train was enroute to the YW interchange with the Espee, with all cars destined for points east, both the loaded lumber flats and the loaded/empty PRR boxcar. Hope this helps, Dave Sieber, Reno NV
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Re: Tank Car Chat
Richard Hendrickson
On Mar 13, 2012, at 3:03 PM, atsfnut wrote:
Gentlemen,Michael, they're all different. The Proto 2000 models represent AC&F Type 21s built from 1921 (actually, some a bit earlier) through ca. 1929. The Intermountain models represent AC&F Type 27s built from 1927 until World War II. The Red Caboose model represents an AC&F 10k gal. welded ICC-103 built from ca. 1948 through the early '50s. Quality and detail varies (the underframes on the Intermountain models are a bit lame), but all are prototypically accurate. Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Intermountain war emergency boxcars
Don <riverman_vt@...>
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "armprem2" <armprem2@...> wrote:
That depends on what shade of red you use as "correct" on your New York Central hoppers, Armand. Cordially, DOn Valentine
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Re: Tank Car Chat
Michael,
This of course also points out the need for other prototypes besides AC&F to be modeled in plastic. Both the UTL X-3 and GATC have been done in resin, but those are challenging kits that take some time to build. And of course, one of the nicest plastic kits, the Tichy tank car, isn't a real car, although it can be used to kitbash a couple different cars. Regards Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ________________________________________ From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of atsfnut [michaelEGross@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:23 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tank Car Chat Thank you, Bruce, that clarifies things. So they are three different prototypes altogether. Got it. Michael Gross --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:
------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Re: Tank Car Chat
atsfnut <michaelEGross@...>
Thank you, Bruce, that clarifies things. So they are three different prototypes altogether. Got it.
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Michael Gross
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:
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Re: Drawing Help
mopac1 <mopac1@...>
Charlie,
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What I have are PDF scans of drawings for the Ste Genevieve car ferry. I was hoping to get two of the drawing into CAD, the Lines & Offsets and the general arrangement. But it doesn't look good. So far it appears I'll need to go old school. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Vlk Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:09 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [STMFC] Drawing Help Gene- I can go from CorelCad (AutoCad dwg) to Corel Draw and save to PDF. What do you have? Charlie Vlk From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:08 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Drawing Help Would anyone on the list be able to convert PDF files to AutoCAD DWG files? If so, please contact me off list at mopac1 at classicnet dot net Thanks, Gene Semon ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links
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Re: Tank Car Chat
Michael,
That's pretty easy-P2K That's because the IM car is an AC&F type 27 and the Red Caboose tank car is a welded post war car. Regards Bruce Smith Auburn, AL ________________________________________ From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of atsfnut [michaelEGross@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:03 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: [STMFC] Tank Car Chat Gentlemen, There has been a lot of talk lately about p2K tank car railings, which begs the question, who makes the most authentic type 21 tank car: p2K, Intermountain, or Red Caboose? Is there a consensus about this? Cheers! Michael Gross La Canada, CA ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Re: Drawing Help
Charlie Vlk
Sorry to use up the bandwith, but I don't have an off-list email to respond
and the answer may be of general interest for others with similar freight car drawing conversion problems. PDFs are generally, if not starting from CorelDraw or Adobe Illustrator original drawings, "dumb" pictures of lines. To go into AutoCad .dwg format these can be imported but they have no intelligence..they are not individual lines with specific points in space. There are some conversion routines to convert .jpg and .pdf into vector graphics but they are not magic. Charlie Vlk
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Re: Lumber Loads
Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
Nothing has been said yet about the roll of different trees yielding lumber
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of different colors. Down south in the pine forests where I grew up, native lumber had a decided yellowish hue, as did the pitch from the yellow pines and slash pines from whence it came. Basswood is a lot whiter than pine, and I would expect color variations between spruce, fir, cedar, and redwood as well. Lumber was dried and outside in the sun in early days, not kiln dried, and weathering as well as tree species played a roll in shipped appearance. Since color photos aren't available before the 1940s, we probably underappreciated the extent of variation that existed in the colors of open lumber loads. The other factor that affects lumber color is the ring patterns of trees, and how the logs were sawn, i.e across the grain or with the grain. While we can't model wood grain color very well in HO scale, the grain pattern had a pronounced affect on color perception of individual boards. I suspect the appearance of commercial lumber at the big box stores today is quite different than it was in the steam era. Then there's the issue of layout lighting and individual color perception, so there is no 'right' way to color lumber loads, just lots of wrong ways. Nelson Moyer
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony Thompson Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:37 AM To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [STMFC] Lumber Loads John Riddell wrote: Appropriate coloring of lumber loads is often overlooked by modelers.It's true that model stripwood is usually quite pale. But both color and B&W photos of period lumber loads on flat cars show a pretty pale color of that lumber. The same is true of the studs and plywood at my neighborhood lumber store. I would agree stripwood should be more yellowish than white, but a very deep color would not be accurate either. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> Publishers of books on railroad history
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