Date   

Re: tank car placards for models

Tom Houle <thoule@...>
 

For many years at least through the fifties, the term "Inflammable" was used
to indicate combustionable material. It was and still is incorrect
English. Inflammable literally means non-flammable. The "in"prefix
comes from the Latin prefix for not. Today we correctly use the term
"Flammable". Preferred use would be Flammable, but it really depends on
the era you are modeling. Pre- 1960, I'd use the incorrect term
Inflammable.
Tom Houle

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
madchemep2@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: MadChemEp2@aol.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: tank car placards for models

Not that I'm an English major but, I can speak the language. A question
that I have often wondered about, what is the difference between
"Flammable"
and "Inflammable"? Seems like an oxymoron. What is the preferred use?
Regards, Al Campbell





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Re: tank car placards for models

Bruce Smith
 

Al,

For most of the period of this list, "inflammable" was the preferred usage for something that could catch fire and burn. However, there was the problem that folks began to equate "in" with "not" and so usage shifted to the current "flammable".

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

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On Mar 21, 2012, at 1:39 PM, <madchemep2@aol.com<mailto:madchemep2@aol.com>>
wrote:

Not that I'm an English major but, I can speak the language. A question
that I have often wondered about, what is the difference between "Flammable"
and "Inflammable"? Seems like an oxymoron. What is the preferred use?
Regards, Al Campbell





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: tank car placards for models

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Campbell wrote:
Not that I'm an English major but, I can speak the language. A question that I have often wondered about, what is the difference between "Flammable"
and "Inflammable"? Seems like an oxymoron. What is the preferred use?
By regulatory decision, "flammable." The two terms were essentially interchangeable in the 1950s, leading to obvious possibilities for misinterpretation of one or the other term. In a spill or fire crisis, you don't want people overthinking the problem, so one was chosen. Probably not an accident that they chose the shorter term.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: tank car placards for models

Al Campbell
 

Not that I'm an English major but, I can speak the language. A question
that I have often wondered about, what is the difference between "Flammable"
and "Inflammable"? Seems like an oxymoron. What is the preferred use?
Regards, Al Campbell


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Mar 21, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Bruce F. Smith wrote:

Folks,

Wow... I thought this was all off topic as business practices...
but since it isn't and I have a get out of jail card hidden
somewhere around here...

(found it!) Brianna says that it is all well and good if you don't
want to reserve, but then don't whine when a product is delayed or
canceled due to lack of reservations.

As noted, companies aren't going back to a "stock the shelves"
mentality. That is long gone. You just need to look at how models
are manufactured to understand that. Understand too that the
"excess" over reservations has gone down, as companies learned that
it was counter productive to bring something in at $400 and then
dump the remaining inventory at $220 six months later... since
everyone realized that they should just wait and buy from the
Bargin Bin. Its been my experience lately that a company would
MUCH rather have to announce a 2nd run nearly simultaneously with
the 1st run hitting the shores. Of course that is one way you can
"wait and see" as well, but then we get back to Brianna's point.
Bruce, I've been staying out of this discussion, as it seems to me
largely pointless, but I will add one additional observation to
Brianna's sage advice. If you decide not to reserve but to "wait and
see," it often happens that the model turns out to be something you
really want, but they are entirely sold out to those who made advance
reservations and there may or may not be a second run. In that case,
those who say "no problem, it will turn up on e-bay" may be seriously
disappointed. If and when one does turn up on e-Bay, the price is
likely to be bid up outrageously and yours probably won't be the
winning bid.

One other thing. You should never have to pay in advance if you
cultivate a long term relationship with a well established retailer
who knows you and knows you will pay promptly when the item comes
in. The dealer with whom I have such a relationship is 2,000 miles
away, so he has my credit card information on file. When something I
have ordered in advance finally appears, he just bills my card and
advises me by e-mail of the amount charged and the date the item has
been shipped to me. Why do business with people you don't know and
trust, and who don't know and trust you?

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Jim Betz
 

Chuck and all,

From where I sit this is a Catch-22 thing. The importer of
the loco doesn't want to 'risk' a lot of money. So he goes
to pre-order (essentially zero risk) ... but -lots- of guys
have a "wait and see" attitude (it's not just you). So the
importer (please note I am not calling them "manufacturers")
orders only what he has pre-orders for ... which is a smaller
number (?). Some shops/internet dealers "take a risk" (?)
and order more than -they- have orders for ... but the bottom
line is that the importer ends up with zero risk and can 'stay
in business'.
Ah but ... the Catch-22 ... it only takes one or two
"problem locos" and then the spiral down to zero orders
starts.
Many of these pre-ordered locos 'end up on eBay' sooner or
later. Some by dealers/shops that ordered more than they
had firm orders for themselves and some from buyers who
pre-ordered and are now selling them (some for 'profit',
some just don't want it for what ever reason).

My observation is that the importers ("mfgrs") who consistently
bring in (turn out) high quality (or just "high enough") get a
fairly large number of pre-orders. Consistently.

One of -my- pet peeves is the way truly successful models
don't get re-run to fill the true demand. For instance a
loco comes into your LHS and sells out in less than 2 months -
and then it doesn't get rerun is at least a half decade!

I feel my response to the pre-order thing is pretty much
"typical". I will only pre-order from specific sources for
specific types of models (such as an Atlas or Stewart loco) ...
AND if the model is one I want/need ... as in the right paint
scheme and without lots of re-work to make it right. I'm
more than willing to add details - but removing easily spotted
mods is where I draw the line (for instance I'm not likely to
purchase/pre-order an SP Geep that has the full light package
on the nose ... and then convert it to GN/SP&S/DM&IR).

Chuck - I've been with you on not pre-ordering from before it
became more common than not ... and I've missed out on some
models I would rather not have missed out on. But at least
I don't have a -lot- of stuff in my hobby shop in the closet
that is the result of my bad choice of pre-order.
- Jim
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnnrr" <lnnrr@...> wrote:


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Wow... I thought this was all off topic as business practices... but since it isn't and I have a get out of jail card hidden somewhere around here...

(found it!) Brianna says that it is all well and good if you don't want to reserve, but then don't whine when a product is delayed or canceled due to lack of reservations.

As noted, companies aren't going back to a "stock the shelves" mentality. That is long gone. You just need to look at how models are manufactured to understand that. Understand too that the "excess" over reservations has gone down, as companies learned that it was counter productive to bring something in at $400 and then dump the remaining inventory at $220 six months later... since everyone realized that they should just wait and buy from the Bargin Bin. Its been my experience lately that a company would MUCH rather have to announce a 2nd run nearly simultaneously with the 1st run hitting the shores. Of course that is one way you can "wait and see" as well, but then we get back to Brianna's point.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Mar 21, 2012, at 12:18 PM, armprem2 wrote:

I prefer to examine an item before I purchase it.I hate to buy a pig in a poke.Patience pays off,it will shortly appear on Ebay anyway.Armand Premo----- Original Message -----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com<mailto:SUVCWORR@aol.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.




As a small vendor (not a LHS), I buy directly from two manufacturers and through distributors for everything else. None of them with the exception of brass have ever required a deposit. That being said, I do selectively require deposits on orders. I have been stuck with large numbers of items from individuals who pre-ordered and then declined to accept the items. Usually locomotives. Anything they order now requires a non-refundable deposit. I am sure this is the reason other retailers require deposits. They have been burned too many times with refused large orders. Retailers cannot afford to tie-up cash in inventory that is not going to move quickly. As Bill said, there is a narrow window to move an item before it becomes stale and languishes on the shelf. Every dollar in stale inventory is a dollar not available to purchase the next release.

Cash flow is the name of the game.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schneider <bschneider424@comcast.net<mailto:bschneider424@comcast.net>>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:28 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints

from a manufacturer's perspective.

First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982

in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop

clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that

they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest

distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large

amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder

product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no

longer in business.

Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new

product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best.

Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which

has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a

huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to

make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and

distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of

the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay

for the next new thing.

As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most

distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to

re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or

know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of

money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope

that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the

produce-to-order situation.

Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution

(the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the

manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with

their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive.

Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer

or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future

re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that

this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on

the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the

hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.

I cant speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido

produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline

(which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we

produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to

replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain

are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to

sell them!

Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of

"The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this

list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I

can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance

during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we

represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some

manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome

correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any

Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not

seen a penny of it!

I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley

Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on!

:>)

Bill Schneider

Product Development

Rapido Trains Inc.

http://www.rapidotrains.com

From: Allen Cain

Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.

Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,

distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small

percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.

I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I

preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce

enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I

ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even

that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had

paid for them.

I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and

commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.

I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is

always Ebay where about anything can be found from

shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what

a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will

contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an

item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and

will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell

worldwide.

Allen Cain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Armand Premo
 

I prefer to examine an item before I purchase it.I hate to buy a pig in a poke.Patience pays off,it will shortly appear on Ebay anyway.Armand Premo----- Original Message -----
From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.




As a small vendor (not a LHS), I buy directly from two manufacturers and through distributors for everything else. None of them with the exception of brass have ever required a deposit. That being said, I do selectively require deposits on orders. I have been stuck with large numbers of items from individuals who pre-ordered and then declined to accept the items. Usually locomotives. Anything they order now requires a non-refundable deposit. I am sure this is the reason other retailers require deposits. They have been burned too many times with refused large orders. Retailers cannot afford to tie-up cash in inventory that is not going to move quickly. As Bill said, there is a narrow window to move an item before it becomes stale and languishes on the shelf. Every dollar in stale inventory is a dollar not available to purchase the next release.

Cash flow is the name of the game.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schneider <bschneider424@comcast.net>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:28 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints

from a manufacturer's perspective.

First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982

in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop

clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that

they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest

distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large

amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder

product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no

longer in business.

Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new

product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best.

Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which

has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a

huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to

make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and

distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of

the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay

for the next new thing.

As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most

distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to

re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or

know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of

money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope

that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the

produce-to-order situation.

Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution

(the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the

manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with

their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive.

Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer

or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future

re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that

this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on

the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the

hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.

I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido

produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline

(which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we

produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to

replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain

are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to

sell them!

Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of

"The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this

list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I

can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance

during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we

represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some

manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome

correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any

Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not

seen a penny of it!

I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley

Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on!

:>)

Bill Schneider

Product Development

Rapido Trains Inc.

http://www.rapidotrains.com

From: Allen Cain

Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.

Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,

distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small

percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.

I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I

preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce

enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I

ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even

that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had

paid for them.

I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and

commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.

I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is

always Ebay where about anything can be found from

shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what

a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will

contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an

item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and

will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell

worldwide.

Allen Cain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Yahoo! Groups Links

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

Individual Email | Traditional

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

STMFC-digest@yahoogroups.com

STMFC-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

STMFC-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Orr wrote:
As a small vendor (not a LHS), I buy directly from two manufacturers . . . I do selectively require deposits on orders. I have been stuck with large numbers of items from individuals who pre- ordered and then declined to accept the items. Usually locomotives. Anything they order now requires a non-refundable deposit.
But notice the problem here. The locomotive comes in, it's panned by somebody somewhere (rightly or wrongly), and the prospective buyer, who of course had no way to know what would be delivered, declines to accept. I don't think this is unreasonable behavior. If those who are "selective" (not saying "picky") find themselves having to pre-pay for reservations, some will simply drop out, as some posters have observed. That's a loss of customer, because they don't decline EVERY engine.
That said, I have no sympathy for the reservation holder who, on arrival says, "sorry, I changed my mind." That's unreasonable, even though I realize the dealer has no way to distinguish it from the buyer who finds the product unacceptable.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

SUVCWORR@...
 

As a small vendor (not a LHS), I buy directly from two manufacturers and through distributors for everything else. None of them with the exception of brass have ever required a deposit. That being said, I do selectively require deposits on orders. I have been stuck with large numbers of items from individuals who pre-ordered and then declined to accept the items. Usually locomotives. Anything they order now requires a non-refundable deposit. I am sure this is the reason other retailers require deposits. They have been burned too many times with refused large orders. Retailers cannot afford to tie-up cash in inventory that is not going to move quickly. As Bill said, there is a narrow window to move an item before it becomes stale and languishes on the shelf. Every dollar in stale inventory is a dollar not available to purchase the next release.

Cash flow is the name of the game.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schneider <bschneider424@comcast.net>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Mar 21, 2012 10:28 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.


At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints

from a manufacturer's perspective.



First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982

in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop

clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that

they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest

distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large

amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder

product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no

longer in business.



Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new

product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best.

Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which

has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a

huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to

make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and

distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of

the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay

for the next new thing.



As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most

distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to

re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or

know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of

money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope

that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the

produce-to-order situation.



Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution

(the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the

manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with

their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive.

Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer

or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future

re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that

this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on

the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the

hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.



I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido

produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline

(which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we

produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to

replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain

are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to

sell them!



Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of

"The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this

list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I

can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance

during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we

represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some

manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome

correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any

Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not

seen a penny of it!



I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley

Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on!

:>)



Bill Schneider

Product Development

Rapido Trains Inc.



http://www.rapidotrains.com





From: Allen Cain

Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM

To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.









I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.



Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,

distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small

percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.



I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I

preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce

enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I

ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even

that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had

paid for them.



I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and

commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.



I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is

always Ebay where about anything can be found from

shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what

a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will

contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an

item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and

will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell

worldwide.



Allen Cain























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Re: Explosives placards...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Stuart Forsyth wrote:
<. . . as I recall, at least for explosives, the pertinent Interstate Commerce Commission regulations during World War II (Par. 909) specified both the color of the placard and the color of the printing. The explosives placard was yellow with mostly black printing; the word "EXPLOSIVES" and the phrase "KEEP FIRE AWAY" were printed in red. The placard included a condensed list of the rules for handing cars loaded with explosives.
Jack Burgess replied:
I have a couple of these for the Yosemite Valley RR and they conform to the above specifications. The signs are actually printed on "yellowish" cardstock (like a dark manila folder color).
I would make two points. First, in my blog post about prototype placards, there is a photo of an explosives placard from the mid-1950s and it is clearly white, not yellow. When the requirement changed, I don't know, but if someone could clarify, it would be helpful.
Second, to Jack's point, old placards often have darkened. The 1962 one in my blog post is like that, too. I do not think you can be sure the original cardstock was not white, after an interval of decades. Certainly B&W photos of tank cars from before and during WW II appear to show awfully light-colored placards, not like the 1962 one of mine which I believe is darkened with age.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: [STMFC} Need Source for N scale KC brake set

Greg Kennelly <gregkennelly@...>
 

Andy,

The only K-type brake cylinder I am aware of in N scale is one that was (is?) made by Detail Associates. Try Marshall Thomson at Republic Locomotive Works. They are shown in his on-line catalog, https://www.republiclocomotiveworks.com/showPage.php?page=4 , as DA 8401, package of 2 for $2.60.

Cheers,
Greg Kennelly
Burnaby, BC


NEW F&C Reading XMP ONE PIECE BODY 36' Boxcars

erict1361 <erict1361@...>
 

Funaro & Camerlengo Just posted this on their Website:

SEE US AT THE PHILADELPHIA DIVISION NMRA MEET at the Desmond Great Valley Hotel & Conference Center in Malverne, PA

March 23- March 25, 2012

We Will Have the Following New Kits

Reading XMP ONE PIECE BODY 36' Boxcars with Steel and Wood Doors with Hutchins Roof and Decals $44.99

Anyone know how long these cars ran in Interchange service?

Thanks,
Eric


Explosives placards...

Jack Burgess
 

<I no longer have the source material in my possession, but as I recall,
<at least for explosives, the pertinent Interstate Commerce Commission
<regulations during World War II (Par. 909) specified both the color of
<the placard and the color of the printing. The explosives placard was
<yellow with mostly black printing; the word "EXPLOSIVES" and the phrase
<"KEEP FIRE AWAY" were printed in red. The placard included a condensed
<list of the rules for handing cars loaded with explosives.
<
<Best wishes,
<
<Stuart

I have a couple of these for the Yosemite Valley RR and they conform to the
above specifications. The signs are actually printed on "yellowish"
cardstock (like a dark manila folder color). The railroad name was printed
on them at the top. One has the date to be filled in printed as
"______192___". No use making an employee fill in two numbers when only one
will do the job...

Jack Burgess
Newark, CA


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Marty McGuirk
 

Reword that last sentence to read: If you're PRE-paying . . ."



Marty

----- Original Message -----


From: "Marty McGuirk" <mjmcguirk@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:40:52 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

 






I haven't been employed in the model railroad industry for a few years now, but I've read on various forums over the years that people have "pre-paid" for items they've ordered. I do know that Intermountain, while I was there, did not charge dealers to order items - all a dealer had to do was order a quantity - no money changed hands until the product shipped to the dealer . . . and in some cases the money didn't change hands for a quite a while after the product shipped, but that's another issue entirely.

In short, if you're PRE-paying for items (with the exception, perhaps, of brass or truly special limited run items like the Canadian Bill mentioned) find another source.

Marty

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Schneider" < bschneider424@comcast.net >
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:27:55 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

 

At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints
from a manufacturer's perspective.

First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982
in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop
clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that
they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest
distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large
amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder
product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no
longer in business.

Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new
product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best.
Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which
has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a
huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to
make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and
distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of
the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay
for the next new thing.

As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most
distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to
re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or
know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of
money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope
that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the
produce-to-order situation.

Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution
(the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the
manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with
their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive.
Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer
or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future
re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that
this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on
the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the
hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.

I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido
produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline
(which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we
produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to
replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain
are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to
sell them!

Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of
"The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this
list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I
can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance
during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we
represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some
manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome
correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any
Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not
seen a penny of it!

I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley
Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on!
:>)

Bill Schneider
Product Development
Rapido Trains Inc.

http://www.rapidotrains.com

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.

Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,
distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small
percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.

I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I
preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce
enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I
ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even
that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had
paid for them.

I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and
commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.

I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is
always Ebay where about anything can be found from
shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what
a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will
contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an
item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and
will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell
worldwide.

Allen Cain








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Marty McGuirk
 

I haven't been employed in the model railroad industry for a few years now, but I've read on various forums over the years that people have "pre-paid" for items they've ordered. I do know that Intermountain, while I was there, did not charge dealers to order items - all a dealer had to do was order a quantity - no money changed hands until the product shipped to the dealer . . . and in some cases the money didn't change hands for a quite a while after the product shipped, but that's another issue entirely.



In short, if you're paying for items (with the exception, perhaps, of brass or truly special limited run items like the Canadian Bill mentioned) find another source.



Marty

----- Original Message -----


From: "Bill Schneider" <bschneider424@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:27:55 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

 




At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints
from a manufacturer's perspective.

First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982
in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop
clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that
they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest
distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large
amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder
product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no
longer in business.

Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new
product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best.
Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which
has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a
huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to
make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and
distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of
the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay
for the next new thing.

As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most
distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to
re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or
know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of
money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope
that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the
produce-to-order situation.

Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution
(the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the
manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with
their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive.
Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer
or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future
re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that
this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on
the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the
hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.

I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido
produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline
(which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we
produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to
replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain
are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to
sell them!

Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of
"The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this
list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I
can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance
during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we
represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some
manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome
correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any
Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not
seen a penny of it!

I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley
Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on!
:>)

Bill Schneider
Product Development
Rapido Trains Inc.

http://www.rapidotrains.com

From: Allen Cain
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.

Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,
distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small
percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.

I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I
preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce
enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I
ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even
that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had
paid for them.

I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and
commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.

I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is
always Ebay where about anything can be found from
shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what
a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will
contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an
item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and
will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell
worldwide.

Allen Cain

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Bill Schneider
 

At the risk of inflaming this issue, perhaps I can throw in some viewpoints from a manufacturer's perspective.

First, as background, I have been involved in the hobby business since 1982 in retail, wholesale and manufacturing. When I started out as a hobby shop clerk my primary job was to inventory kits that had sold and make sure that they were re-ordered. Imagine that.... I also worked for one of the largest distributors in the country, a company that prided itself in carrying large amounts of inventory to supply their dealers when they needed to reorder product. They were very successful at this for many years. They are no longer in business.

Today's rolling stock market is significantly different at all levels. A new product has a very short shelf life - sometimes two weeks or so at best. Part of the issue is just the pure volume of new products coming out which has made us all accustomed to new models every month. New products create a huge (we hope) buzz, that immediately turns into "so what are you going to make next?" often before the first product ships! Most dealers and distributors that I talk to are happy if they quickly sell through all of the cars that they get in on a run so that they can take that money and pay for the next new thing.

As a result, most shops no longer try to re-order cars that sell out. Most distributors (likely in response to this) also as a rule do not attempt to re-order cars when they sell out. Manufacturers produce what they think (or know) that they can sell, but can not afford to invest large amounts of money in product that will sit on shelves collecting dust in the vain hope that somebody might someday need.... one. All of this is feeding the produce-to-order situation.

Something to bear in mind. Most products are still sold through distribution (the dealer ordering from a wholesaler instead of direct from the manufacturer). These distributors are in direct and regular contact with their dealers and make every effort to fill every order that they receive. Nowhere do we (or any other manufacturer that I know of) state that a dealer or distributor can not order extra cars to carry in inventory to fill future re-orders - we will be happy to make as many as needed! The fact is that this often just does not happen, but the blame always seems to fall back on the manufacturers for not making enough thus leading to the demise of the hobby shop that can't get product, even if they never tried to order it.

I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but I can tell that you Rapido produces fully 100% of product that we have reserved by the order deadline (which is when we give the quantities to the factory). In addition, we produce a certain percentage over that number to cover warranty claims or to replace cars damaged in shipment. After a period the few cars that remain are offered to distributors and dealers. It can often be very difficult to sell them!

Finally, let me just mention the issue of deposits. With the exception of "The Canadian" passenger train (a special case and out of scope for this list) Rapido has NEVER asked for deposits on any pre-orders. Again, while I can not speak for other manufacturers, I can not think of any instance during my 15 years at the distributorship that a manufacturer that we represented required a deposit from a retailer on a pre-order. Perhaps some manufacturers are now doing this on direct sales, and I would welcome correction on this if this is the case. If you have paid a deposit on any Rapido products other than "The Canadian" then rest assured that we have not seen a penny of it!

I will now don my bullet-proof vest and get ready to leave for the Valley Forge RPM. Those of you attending can take pot-shots at me from Friday on! :>)

Bill Schneider
Product Development
Rapido Trains Inc.

http://www.rapidotrains.com


From: Allen Cain
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 9:32 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.




I agree 100% with Chuck's well stated complaints with the pre order process.

Add to this the risk of losing you money completely if the manufacturer,
distributor or LHS goes out of business. Stand in line to get MAYBE a small
percentage of your money back if they go into bankruptcy.

I have personally missed out on some Intermountain rolling stock that I
preordered through a reliable supplier when they apparently did not produce
enough to fill their pre-orders. And yes, I had paid for these when I
ordered them months in advance. Eventually I got my money back but even
that took a lot of time chasing down credit card charges to prove that I had
paid for them.

I too will order but not pre-pay for items that have not been reviewed and
commented on by knowledgeable folks who have actually seen them.

I may miss out on something but then this I just a hobby. And there is
always Ebay where about anything can be found from
shops/distributors/speculators do buy stock to sell. Humm, sounds like what
a Hobby Shop used to do. Realistically, this preorder business will
contribute to the demise of the local hobby shops who no longer can order an
item from distributor/manufacturer stock after they have been produced and
will move sales to on-line stores who can stock up by pre-ordering and sell
worldwide.

Allen Cain


Re: Sunshine Kit 102.5 CV 43000 Series / 102.4 4200 Series trucks & 7 rung ladders

Marty McGuirk
 

Eric,



Have you come up with a reliable (read "able to last in-service") way to secure the stirrup to the side ladders?

----- Original Message -----


From: "erict1361" <erict1361@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:19:20 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Kit 102.5 CV 43000 Series / 102.4  4200 Series trucks & 7 rung ladders

 





Bob,

What I understand is that these cars used a "nested" six-spring truck. The correct HO trucks are not available for these kits at this time. You could use the TP-40 or " Cast Sideframe" type which are close in appearance.

BTW I found another problen with the Kit 102.5 CV 43000 series. The Ladders included in the kit are "7" Rung. The sides take "8" rung and the ends "7". You will have to glue an extra rung from the 5th ladder on the sprue. or , what I did, used the "8" rung ladders from a FGEX kit and swapped them, they are "8" rung.---

Eric

In STMFC@yahoogroups.com , "robertm" <robertmoeller47@...> wrote:


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com , "erict1361" <erict1361@> wrote:

I just started building SS Models Kit 102.5 the CV 43000 Series
Rebuild.

Hi Eric,

Your post made me aware of this CV car and got me to Sunshine where I
found CV 42000 as well. Sunshine offers two kinds of trucks: TP 40 black
plastic cast side frame, non-sprung trucks with non-magnetic metal
wheelsets and TP 51 Black plastic Andrews, non-sprung trucks with
non-magnetic metal wheel sets.

I read the Sunshine flyer and can not find information on which trucks
these two CV cars had.
Which are correct?

Bob Moeller




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tichy

ATSF1226
 

Jon,

Tichy is now located in North Carolina. They have a web site and will take orders on their web site.
TICHY TRAIN GROUP
P.O. BOX 220
ALAMANCE, NC 27201-0220


George Walls

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@...> wrote:

Does anyone know an address for Tichy? I used the one on the box but
the letter came back as insufficient address.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax DCC owner, Chief system
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Sunshine Kit 102.5 CV 43000 Series / 102.4 4200 Series trucks & 7 rung ladders

erict1361 <erict1361@...>
 

Bob,

What I understand is that these cars used a "nested" six-spring truck. The correct HO trucks are not available for these kits at this time. You could use the TP-40 or " Cast Sideframe" type which are close in appearance.

BTW I found another problen with the Kit 102.5 CV 43000 series. The Ladders included in the kit are "7" Rung. The sides take "8" rung and the ends "7". You will have to glue an extra rung from the 5th ladder on the sprue. or , what I did, used the "8" rung ladders from a FGEX kit and swapped them, they are "8" rung.---


Eric



In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "robertm" <robertmoeller47@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "erict1361" <erict1361@> wrote:

I just started building SS Models Kit 102.5 the CV 43000 Series
Rebuild.

Hi Eric,

Your post made me aware of this CV car and got me to Sunshine where I
found CV 42000 as well. Sunshine offers two kinds of trucks: TP 40 black
plastic cast side frame, non-sprung trucks with non-magnetic metal
wheelsets and TP 51 Black plastic Andrews, non-sprung trucks with
non-magnetic metal wheel sets.

I read the Sunshine flyer and can not find information on which trucks
these two CV cars had.
Which are correct?

Bob Moeller




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

80941 - 80960 of 188733