Date   

Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Andy Harman
 

At 01:18 PM 3/24/2012 -0700, you wrote:
airplane, to mention just one category of possible purchases that one
makes regularly if one has an LHS. Freight car kist, though, wow! DPH
has a terrific stock.
I use to pile my picnic basket with detail parts on my annual DPH pilgrimage, but the last few years, it ends up being filled with freight cars. One of the few places where you can browse a substantial and diverse selection of *kits*.

Andy


Re: State of the RPM hobby

Andy Harman
 

At 04:17 PM 3/24/2012 -0400, you wrote:

If you look at the models I've built, you'd probably call me a
true RPM'er. But if you look at all the things I've bought over
the years, you might not be so generous in your assessment! :-)
If you ask almost *anyone* in Cincinnati who knows me or has even heard my name, they'll probably tell you I'm one of those damn rivet counters. But if you saw what I bought in the past 3 months - for non-prototype modeling purposes - you'd probably kick me off this list. Then again, the Proto:87 guys (all five of them) want to run me off my own diesel list for not using Sergents - I'm a hypocrite after all.

Andy


Re: State of the RPM hobby

Andy Harman
 

At 01:13 PM 3/24/2012 -0700, you wrote:
in the prestige direction than actually qualify. So I think that MR
percentage describes how many people would like to THINK of themselves
as "prototype modelers."
As far as I'm concerned, a wannabe prototype modeler is a prototype modeler. To what degree he adheres, etc, is subjective anyway, but I think you are one if you say you are. Because those who aren't wouldn't be caught dead admitting any affiliation with the rivet counters... so I wouldn't think there's a high probability of error in this survey. Now if you have more strict criteria for defining a prototype modeler, you could narrow it down pretty far... like guys who use only Proto:87 track and Sergent couplers - they don't consider us code 83 NMRA / code 88 and Kadee guys "real" prototype modelers, just ask 'em.

So I'm more for the inclusive, not just because it makes our numbers bigger, but because it encourages more people to improve their modeling and improve their knowledge and observation of the prototype and keep some of the good stuff flowing.

Andy


Re: What RR?

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Clark--

A quick perusal of RMJ's "Box Cars...Book 1" reveals the following cars as possible matches for this kit--

Wabash/NJI&I 100-149 built 1-50
WM 4201-4450 built 9-53.

There are also other prototypes that can be matched using different rooves or ends using the Front Range body that you cite.

Hope that this helps,

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., <cepropst@...> wrote:

A friend bought an undec ‘Front Range’ kit this morning at a swap meet. Think he bought it because it was an undec kit and cheap.

From what I saw it has welded sides with maybe 12 panels, 8ft door opening, diagonal panel roof. Ends are improved Dreadnaught with a rectangle pressing at the top.

Anyone have any ideas on what roads may have owned such a critter?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Andy Harman
 

At 04:12 PM 3/24/2012 -0400, you wrote:
Tony, you're a well travelled fellow. To quote Stephen Stills, when
you're out of town, just "Love the one you're with"! Once a year, Des
Plaines Hobbies is my LHS, for example. This year I'm going to arrive
a day early for Naperville so I can while away a whole afternoon at
DPH... :-)
We'll see you there, probably around 4 pm local time.

Andy


Re: State of the RPM hobby (was Pre-orders, pro or con)

Andy Harman
 

At 03:58 PM 3/24/2012 -0400, you wrote:
I think it was the December MR where the editorial referred to a survey conducted by MR which revealed that 6% of modelers were strict prototype modelers. Indeed a small segment of small population.
6% by head count. Wonder what it is by $$ spent.

Andy


Re: State of the RPM hobby (was Pre-orders, pro or con)

Andy Harman
 

At 03:30 PM 3/24/2012 -0400, you wrote:

Anyway, it just underscored to me how rare RPM'ing really is. The great
majority of people really do just want to have fun with the hobby
I've been prototype modeling for 38 years, and actively RPMing (as in going to RPM meets and talking and fraternizing etc) for 17 years, and just about every minute of it has been fun. I enjoy researching and building a model and watching it come to life more than anything else, because that's what I mostly do. Not that I don't enjoy operating, but TBQH I'd rather be a railfan on a layout than an engineer, especially if the emphasis on prototypical operation has turned it into a job - complete with paperwork. I appreciate the effort required to do so, and it's obvious why many layouts are operated prototypically with OOB and freelanced and generally inappropriate rolling stock - there isn't enough human lifespan to do both well. Yes, there are examples, but they are either highly focused clubs that have maintained a long term mission, or they are home layouts that have been built with substantial discipline - lest I fail to give credit to the owner of this list who has done both - and did it a while ago I might add.

But for the most part those of us who want a large operating layout where 8, 10, 12 or more operators can be kept busy doing real-world jobs, don't have time to build the kind of models you see at RPM meets, or at least not enough of them to fully occupy that large layout. And guys like me who sit around building models when we're not on the computer are ... well... at age 54 looking at a basement that still isn't ready for benchwork to go up, 8.5 years after buying this house. I get closer every day and I'm making progress now that I'm not either in, or on my way to/from a doctor or hospital for a while now, but I have to think about my life and say, what if it never happens? What if my layout doesn't ever get off the ground? I'll still be satisfied with what I've done in the hobby.

Andy


Re: Pre-orders, pro or con.

Andy Harman
 

At 02:55 PM 3/24/2012 -0400, you wrote:
than when I was a kid. Bruce stocks Exactrail, Intermountain, Red
Caboose, Atlas, Athearn, Genesis, you name it -- and still has a
great stock of parts, motors, DCC, whatever. Bruce is 70 now but
he's as sharp as ever -- He did say that no one will ever buy his
store and when he quits it will be the end of it
One reason it's difficult to sell a successful well-stocked store is, well, it has a lot of inventory which means the asking price is going to be pretty high. The original owner has built that asset base over many years, but a potential new owner has to fork it over all at once - either that or go borrow it. That is precisely what happened to a semi-local shop here. The owner had multiple buyers back out and fall through, and ultimately kept it going himself part time. He basically then *gave* the store to three different people, while retaining ownership of the inventory - just to keep it going. The first two had to back out for health reasons and the third one rubbed customers the wrong way to the point that most never came around for a second look (myself included) and he finally closed up for good, but he still shows up at swap meets to sell inventory.

Andy


Re: State of the RPM hobby

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Pat Wilkinson wrote:
None of them profess to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts but for the most part you won't find an out of era car or an NYC/PRR loco running down the Santa Fe
for instance.
There is no necessary connection between nit picking and RPM, nor are RPM folks necessarily nuts. I guess I would set the bar of prototype modeling just a hair higher than avoiding locomotives of faraway roads. I'd also urge that we avoid provocative remarks like "nit picking RPM nuts."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: State of the RPM hobby

Greg Martin
 

In part glgpat@... writes:
"to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts"



Can someone 'splain that one to me as I might be one and don't even know
it.



You might be a Nit Picking Railroad Prototype Modeler if:


* If you recognize that Bower's PRR freight car color is wrong and make
honest attempts to correct it and Lee English gives you the cold should after
your helpful emails.


*If you recognize that the Walthers X29 boxcar and the Red Caboose X29 are
different lengths.


*If you have already recognized that and underframe on a resin kit is
wrong and others remind you that the SHAKE N TAKE kit needs to have the correct
underframe.

*If you realize that the Life Like 50-foot boxcar can be used for a PRR
X38 but the roof on the durn thing needs to be raised 2½ scale inches, the
rivet patterns no problem.

*IF you know every durn fool AAR truck produced made from the twenties to
the late fifties even from the crappiest photo...


*If you have a huge collection of Mainline Modeler and Prototype modeler
and won't rip the articles and dump the adds.


*If you remember when Paul Lubeliner was carrying around rubber molds of
his F units.


*If you remember when Jim Six was an editor for Prototype Modeler and
Richard Hendrickson was a regular contributor.


*If you remember West Rail kits.


* If you have more equipment on your layout that will pass the foot or
less rule than there is equipment that would qualify in the three foot rule
category.

*If you enjoy reading someone's research and interests in a particular
railroad or related company like SFRD, PFE, FGEX/WFEX/NX/BREX, MDT, etc.

If you think you resemble any of the above categories or characteristics
you just might be a serious modeler than enjoys the research as much a the
modeling and view it as part of the hobby.


Greg Martin



Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: State of the RPM hobby (was Pre-orders, pro or con)

Greg Martin
 

Rich Orr writes:

I think it was the December MR where the editorial referred to a survey
conducted by MR which revealed that 6% of modelers were strict prototype
modelers. Indeed a small segment of small population.

Rich Orr




Hey Rich,

I actually believe the figures might be slightly higher if you include the
narrow gauge modelers in all scales, and the O Scale modelers as well. I
would love to see RMC conduct a survey in conjunction with Narrow Gauge
Gazette and see the results.

Greg Martin
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


Re: State of the RPM hobby

Patrick Wilkinson <glgpat@...>
 

Tim,



Down here in the North Texas area where I live there are several serious RPM
people that I know that do not like to socialize. They do not like train
shows and other people near their "stuff".



Most of my friends are serious operators where if it doesn't run well and is
too dainty, it isn't on the layout. Most of the equipment follows their
theme-IE mid 50's Santa Fe, for instance, with a lot of detailed and
weathered Blue Box cars that would pass the 3 foot rule anywhere. The thing
we all worry about is the normal damage a car gets during an operating
session. None of us enjoy replacing bent grab irons or stirrups, especially
on a custom built car.



None of them profess to be "NIT PICKING" RPM nuts but for the most part you
won't find an out of era car or an NYC/PRR loco running down the Santa Fe
for instance.



I guess it's all in what you want to be called.



Pat Wilkinson


Re: mystery brass stock car

Steve SANDIFER
 

It is a ATSF SK-S, same car that Intermountain modeled, but with correct end. SK-Q doors and end are different. Probably Pecos River.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:06 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: mystery brass stock car



Hmm ... Santa Fe Sk-Q or Sk-S?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
>
>
> I don't recognize this model -- it has chain mechanism
> similar to the (AHM) NYC stock cars... but is different.
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/260987370054
>
> Tim O'
>


Re: mystery brass stock car

al_brown03
 

Hmm ... Santa Fe Sk-Q or Sk-S?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I don't recognize this model -- it has chain mechanism
similar to the (AHM) NYC stock cars... but is different.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260987370054

Tim O'


Re: mystery brass stock car

Tom Madden
 

Pecos River Brass? Santa Fe Sk-?

Tom Madden

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I don't recognize this model -- it has chain mechanism
similar to the (AHM) NYC stock cars... but is different.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260987370054

Tim O'


mystery brass stock car

Tim O'Connor
 

I don't recognize this model -- it has chain mechanism
similar to the (AHM) NYC stock cars... but is different.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260987370054

Tim O'


Re: What is Prototype Modeling?

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi Tim,

I agree with you as MRR layouts are always somewhat inaccurate, but can
convey the look and feel of the real thing. Levels is merely a way of
quantifying how close you get to the real thing. Remember, your model
railroad is what you want it to be. Don't knock yourself out trying to
get something you cannot get.

Happy Model Railroading.

Joel Holmes

Joel, I don't know about "levels" or whatever. I have a very
simple definition --

If there is a prototype for your model, and your model is a close
approximation to the prototype, then that is a prototype model. I
don't see any need to put a finer point on that.

There are RPM freight cars, locomotives, structures, and yes, even
layouts. There is even RPM 'operations' in theory, but I have never
seen such, anywhere. I think for most it would be a "fun killer". I
believe most layout operations are the equivalent of Athearn "blue
box" models -- somewhat inaccurate representations that convey the
"look and feel" of the real thing.

Tim O'


Re: What is Prototype Modeling?

Tim O'Connor
 

Joel, I don't know about "levels" or whatever. I have a very
simple definition --

If there is a prototype for your model, and your model is a close
approximation to the prototype, then that is a prototype model. I
don't see any need to put a finer point on that.

There are RPM freight cars, locomotives, structures, and yes, even
layouts. There is even RPM 'operations' in theory, but I have never
seen such, anywhere. I think for most it would be a "fun killer". I
believe most layout operations are the equivalent of Athearn "blue
box" models -- somewhat inaccurate representations that convey the
"look and feel" of the real thing.

Tim O'


Re: Prototype Modeler

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Yes Joel

Joel Holmes wrote:
Hi Tony,
Can you define a "prototype modeler"?
Of course I could, but would it match what MR meant in their
survey? would it match what YOU think it means? or anyone who was
surveyed? I do know that there are individuals out there, who play
pretty fast and loose with the prototype, but because there is a
prototype out there somewhere on the horizon, do consider themselves
prototype modelers. How many others would agree is an open question.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What is Prototype Modeling?

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi Tim,

I will bet that you could categorize prototype modeling into several, or
so, levels. I consider my self somewhat a prototype modeler. However, I
do not run out and get the latest museum quality model, but instead
scratch build my own cars. I try to do what I call the flavor of
prototype modeling. For example, a railroad running between Wilkes-Barre
and Sayre, PA is close to 100 miles. Compromises must be made due to
limited space. I know of no modeler or club that could model 100 scale
miles, even in TT. I model several stations along the line as close as
possible to the prototype using pictures and maps of the area. My
building as as prototype as I can get. Out of necessity, they are scratch
build. Off course, things changed as time goes by. Building were built,
taken down, tracks are added, removed, rerouted, and often junctions
trackage was changed. To be totally prototype, you need to pick a day and
model for that day. Not very practical. Lets say traffic on the line
included a lot of coal movements of 80 to 100 cars. How many model
railroads can do that? Can you get even 50 cars that are equal to the mix
that the real railroad ran. I doubt that also. However, a model train of
25 coal cars using similar to or models of the actual cars will look very
good. Medium and large stations facilities cannot be modeled exactly as
the prototype. Only small stations can approach this. This to me is more
prototype modeling than having trains running on many loops, through
tunnels and over high bridges. Yes, they look nice and are interesting,
but not very prototypical. How many of us modelers, who insist that every
thing about a car must be exactly like the prototype, run these cars on a
layout with prefabbed track and generic buildings and in a small space? I
prefer to look at the prototype layout as capturing as much of the spirit
of the real railroad as possible given time, space and money.

I am sure many will disagree with me, but I believe you can define
prototypical modeling as what ever level the modeler wants. We could go
on for hours about this subject. I hope the moderator allows this
discussion.

Joel Holmes


Joel, I think that's the point. These definitions are slippery
to begin with, so asking people how they categorize themselves
is scientifically meaningless.

On the other hand, the survey may be immensely interesting to
advertisers in Model Railroader, because peoples' perception of
themselves has a lot to do with their buying habits.

I'll bet if you surveyed NMRA members, a much higher percentage
would call themselves prototoype modelers.

Tim O'Connor




Hi Tony,

Can you define a "prototype modeler"?

Joel Holmes

Rich Orr wrote:
I think it was the December MR where the editorial referred to a
survey conducted by MR which revealed that 6% of modelers were
strict prototype modelers. Indeed a small segment of small
population.
then Pierre Oliver replied:
I'm very surprised to see the percentage that high.
Surveyors know that when questions are asked which the subject
may perceive as having a prestige component, more people will answer
in the prestige direction than actually qualify. So I think that MR
percentage describes how many people would like to THINK of themselves
as "prototype modelers." Just keep in mind Lake Woebegone, where "all
the children are above average."

Tony Thompson

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