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MTH HO PFE Steel reefers

needles_sub <needles_sub@...>
 

I didn't pay much attention to these reefers when I saw them at my LHS, but I received several as gifts.
Looking them over, they are not models of PFE steel reefers, but fairly decent stand in models for R-40-24 with plywood sides. I plan just to change car number and change the class markings. The caars have a fishbelly underframe, the same one used with the R-40.
The ladders and grabs are not seperate castings.
Has anyone looked these over?
I didn't find amything about these cars in a search, so I hope this hasn't been talked about.

Jan Podganski Jr


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

No fast clock needed!

I always marvel at folks who want to model any part of the PRR's 4 track main, be it the curve or the North-South electrified main, as the traffic density was so high as to be nearly impossible to duplicate. I plan on modeling the PRR's freight "low grade" Atglen and Susquehanna Branch (actually the freight mainline) which handled the vast majority of freight traffic between Enola and points east. During WWII there were over 80 scheduled moves each day (as interpreted from the PRR's "arranged freight service") through COLA tower. Since the PRR moved all freight as extras, these are not time-table authorities, but also do not include additional extras such as tank cars, and additional extra freights (mostly minerals). A 3 hour ops session should move 1/8 of the total or at a complete minimum, 10 through trains. That does not count additional extras, locals or transfers on the A&S or the other branches that met the A&S in Columbia (C&PD, Frederick, Marietta, Lancaster and the Reading and Columbia branch of the READING. Oh, and I forgot, add in the movement of helpers back down the hill to Columbia after shoving eastbounds out so the Susquehanna river valley. The bottom line is that I will have to run a real time clock, not a fast clock, and I will have to pick "representative trains" selectively compressing the needed number of trains. Pretty much the exact opposite of many branch line layouts <VBG>!


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
Bruce,

Hate to be the windshield, but Columbia actually had higher freight car volumes than Gallitzen during the war (about 10-15% higher) - and with fewer tracks, but without the passenger trains.

And I appreciate the gentle term of "marveling" at something nearly impossible to duplicate (although there are two local modelers who have built at least some portion of the 4-track PRR main). Most people would merely shake their head and chuckle ;-)

But I digress from STMFC content and want to thank everyone for their views and input on the potential to prototypically model a high traffic mainline with mountain grades.

Opinions duly noted - heading out to buy more lottery tickets...

Dave Evans


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

Bruce Smith
 

No fast clock needed!

I always marvel at folks who want to model any part of the PRR's 4 track main, be it the curve or the North-South electrified main, as the traffic density was so high as to be nearly impossible to duplicate. I plan on modeling the PRR's freight "low grade" Atglen and Susquehanna Branch (actually the freight mainline) which handled the vast majority of freight traffic between Enola and points east. During WWII there were over 80 scheduled moves each day (as interpreted from the PRR's "arranged freight service") through COLA tower. Since the PRR moved all freight as extras, these are not time-table authorities, but also do not include additional extras such as tank cars, and additional extra freights (mostly minerals). A 3 hour ops session should move 1/8 of the total or at a complete minimum, 10 through trains. That does not count additional extras, locals or transfers on the A&S or the other branches that met the A&S in Columbia (C&PD, Frederick, Marietta, Lancaster and the Reading and Columbia branch of the READING. Oh, and I forgot, add in the movement of helpers back down the hill to Columbia after shoving eastbounds out so the Susquehanna river valley. The bottom line is that I will have to run a real time clock, not a fast clock, and I will have to pick "representative trains" selectively compressing the needed number of trains. Pretty much the exact opposite of many branch line layouts <VBG>!


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Apr 4, 2012, at 7:59 AM, Dave Evans wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:


Hmmm. Strikes me that anyone wanting to model this area on the Pennsy during
WW2 best design a layout with a significant number of staging tracks.
Following my op plan to simulate the UP through Laramie for about 5 hrs, I
need about 8 frt trains and 5 passenger/mail. Doing the same thing on the
Pennsy through Altoona...assuming consistent train operation...would require
about 30 frt trains and 22 passenger/mail. Assuming equal east/west
direction for trains, you would need 26 staging tracks at both ends of the
modeled RR. That means that you would have no slop. Each WB train would need
a home in WB staging while each EB train would need one in EB staging. Each
WB train leaving Eastern Staging would have to have an EB train vacate a
stall in Western Staging in the same sequence. Of course, holding trains in
between helps...as real RRs did...but still this is not easy to do...trust
me. Try it with both DCC and DC PFM sound at the same time...trust me more.

If anyone [ else ] attempts this kind of "high intensity" op session and
they have "problems", let me know and I might be able to help. Why just in
the Central Florida area I can recommend any of 3 therapists....

Mike Brock

Mike,

Very good analysis - with adequate space (Need a basement!), a double ended staging yard connected to each end of the railroad helps quite a bit on the staging tracks, and supports multiple op sessions without a huge re-staging effort between each.

The scary thought is how many locomotives are involved. Over 100 for the trains you recommend (the "average" days at Gallitzin probably saw around 400 locomotives arrive at the summit in one 24 hour period, although about half were helpers that may have made 2 or 3 trips to the summit per shift.)

Appreciate the offer for help, but friends of mine have already recommended therapy...

For now, need to work, save money, and contemplate my sanity...

Dave Evans



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Re: Sunshine Models Meets

Patrick Wilkinson <glgpat@...>
 

Bob has not inquired about attending but we still have a little room left!



Pat Wilkinson

Fort Worth

Glad to get a sigh of relief instead of another tornado!


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

SUVCWORR@...
 

"Hmmm. Strikes me that anyone wanting to model this area on the Pennsy during

WW2 best design a layout with a significant number of staging tracks.

Following my op plan to simulate the UP through Laramie for about 5 hrs, I

need about 8 frt trains and 5 passenger/mail. Doing the same thing on the

Pennsy through Altoona...assuming consistent train operation...would require

about 30 frt trains and 22 passenger/mail. Assuming equal east/west

direction for trains, you would need 26 staging tracks at both ends of the

modeled RR. That means that you would have no slop. Each WB train would need

a home in WB staging while each EB train would need one in EB staging. Each

WB train leaving Eastern Staging would have to have an EB train vacate a

stall in Western Staging in the same sequence. Of course, holding trains in

between helps...as real RRs did...but still this is not easy to do...trust

me. Try it with both DCC and DC PFM sound at the same time...trust me more.



If anyone [ else ] attempts this kind of "high intensity" op session and

they have "problems", let me know and I might be able to help. Why just in

the Central Florida area I can recommend any of 3 therapists....



Mike Brock "

The one saving thing is that most of the passenger trains ran at night so that the arrival/departure in NY and Chicago
was either AM or PM rather than the middle of the night. Many of the passenger trains would require only one train to
operate both the east and west bound trains. For example the Broadway Limited east and west trains met about 3 miles east
of Pittsburgh. Assuming you do not model Pittsburgh, this allows a west bound to traverse the layout turn and become the
east bound Broadway. The same is true for many of the major passenger trains. It also means freights can use all 4 tracks during most of the day if needed.

To me the most amazing feat was that the interlockings handled a train on average every 4.2 mins for 24 hours on July 25, 1943.

Rich Orr







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Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...>
 

Hi All,

I am modeling a fairly 'small' eastern railroad that only had 5 through
passenger trains as well as several milk and local passenger trains. I
also am going to use staging yards at each end plus one yard midway. I
will need 7 through trains as the consists are all different, and 2 trains
pass in my territory. I will need 2 milk, 5 local, 1 express, and 10 to
12 freight. However, locomotives can be reused as locomotives were often
changed at each end of my layout. My estimate of the total moves over the
prototype was between 30 and 40 trains a day on double track plus 6 to 8
move on 2 mountainous single track branches. I need 5 staging tracks at
each end for passenger and 6 for freight plus a 5 track yard in the
middle. I think I can operate this by myself as there are very few
modelers within 15 miles of my house. I use Dvorak's New World and other
such artists as my therapist.

Joel Holmes

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

All part of the reason I chose to shrink my "area of modeling", and also
why I "recycle" hopper trains in a session.

I still needed nine "name" trains, about eight extras, and several locals.
If I used each car only once, that would require over 900 cars.

Since I can't register individual car numbers as a hopper train passes
through my layout from one staging area to the other, my hopper trains get
re-used by swapping out motive power and cabins/cabeese. No one ever
noticed the difference.

Locals all use individual cars one time, since those are being looked at
more closely during switching, and those cars attracting more interest
should only appear once. They also re-appear less frequently, since that
would spoil the illusion that cars are going far off-line, and do not
return unless in a dedicated rotation.

Elden Gatwood


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

All part of the reason I chose to shrink my "area of modeling", and also why I "recycle" hopper trains in a session.

I still needed nine "name" trains, about eight extras, and several locals. If I used each car only once, that would require over 900 cars.

Since I can't register individual car numbers as a hopper train passes through my layout from one staging area to the other, my hopper trains get re-used by swapping out motive power and cabins/cabeese. No one ever noticed the difference.

Locals all use individual cars one time, since those are being looked at more closely during switching, and those cars attracting more interest should only appear once. They also re-appear less frequently, since that would spoil the illusion that cars are going far off-line, and do not return unless in a dedicated rotation.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Evans
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 9:00 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:


Hmmm. Strikes me that anyone wanting to model this area on the Pennsy during
WW2 best design a layout with a significant number of staging tracks.
Following my op plan to simulate the UP through Laramie for about 5 hrs, I
need about 8 frt trains and 5 passenger/mail. Doing the same thing on the
Pennsy through Altoona...assuming consistent train operation...would require
about 30 frt trains and 22 passenger/mail. Assuming equal east/west
direction for trains, you would need 26 staging tracks at both ends of the
modeled RR. That means that you would have no slop. Each WB train would need
a home in WB staging while each EB train would need one in EB staging. Each
WB train leaving Eastern Staging would have to have an EB train vacate a
stall in Western Staging in the same sequence. Of course, holding trains in
between helps...as real RRs did...but still this is not easy to do...trust
me. Try it with both DCC and DC PFM sound at the same time...trust me more.

If anyone [ else ] attempts this kind of "high intensity" op session and
they have "problems", let me know and I might be able to help. Why just in
the Central Florida area I can recommend any of 3 therapists....

Mike Brock
Mike,

Very good analysis - with adequate space (Need a basement!), a double ended staging yard connected to each end of the railroad helps quite a bit on the staging tracks, and supports multiple op sessions without a huge re-staging effort between each.

The scary thought is how many locomotives are involved. Over 100 for the trains you recommend (the "average" days at Gallitzin probably saw around 400 locomotives arrive at the summit in one 24 hour period, although about half were helpers that may have made 2 or 3 trips to the summit per shift.)

Appreciate the offer for help, but friends of mine have already recommended therapy...

For now, need to work, save money, and contemplate my sanity...

Dave Evans





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:


Hmmm. Strikes me that anyone wanting to model this area on the Pennsy during
WW2 best design a layout with a significant number of staging tracks.
Following my op plan to simulate the UP through Laramie for about 5 hrs, I
need about 8 frt trains and 5 passenger/mail. Doing the same thing on the
Pennsy through Altoona...assuming consistent train operation...would require
about 30 frt trains and 22 passenger/mail. Assuming equal east/west
direction for trains, you would need 26 staging tracks at both ends of the
modeled RR. That means that you would have no slop. Each WB train would need
a home in WB staging while each EB train would need one in EB staging. Each
WB train leaving Eastern Staging would have to have an EB train vacate a
stall in Western Staging in the same sequence. Of course, holding trains in
between helps...as real RRs did...but still this is not easy to do...trust
me. Try it with both DCC and DC PFM sound at the same time...trust me more.

If anyone [ else ] attempts this kind of "high intensity" op session and
they have "problems", let me know and I might be able to help. Why just in
the Central Florida area I can recommend any of 3 therapists....

Mike Brock
Mike,

Very good analysis - with adequate space (Need a basement!), a double ended staging yard connected to each end of the railroad helps quite a bit on the staging tracks, and supports multiple op sessions without a huge re-staging effort between each.

The scary thought is how many locomotives are involved. Over 100 for the trains you recommend (the "average" days at Gallitzin probably saw around 400 locomotives arrive at the summit in one 24 hour period, although about half were helpers that may have made 2 or 3 trips to the summit per shift.)

Appreciate the offer for help, but friends of mine have already recommended therapy...

For now, need to work, save money, and contemplate my sanity...

Dave Evans


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

Mikebrock
 

Dave Evans says:

"The data I have indicates that the peak PRR traffic over the Allegheny summit occurred on July 25, 1943, with a total of 11,145 freight cars. The number of freight trains for that date is not specified, but the all-time peak was 222 freight trains. For the years '42-'45, each year's peak month averaged 120-127 freight trains per day, while averaging around 9300-9400 cars per day over that month."

"Normal PRR passenger traffic over that summit during the same period was a minimum of 88 passenger and mail trains."

Hmmm. Strikes me that anyone wanting to model this area on the Pennsy during WW2 best design a layout with a significant number of staging tracks. Following my op plan to simulate the UP through Laramie for about 5 hrs, I need about 8 frt trains and 5 passenger/mail. Doing the same thing on the Pennsy through Altoona...assuming consistent train operation...would require about 30 frt trains and 22 passenger/mail. Assuming equal east/west direction for trains, you would need 26 staging tracks at both ends of the modeled RR. That means that you would have no slop. Each WB train would need a home in WB staging while each EB train would need one in EB staging. Each WB train leaving Eastern Staging would have to have an EB train vacate a stall in Western Staging in the same sequence. Of course, holding trains in between helps...as real RRs did...but still this is not easy to do...trust me. Try it with both DCC and DC PFM sound at the same time...trust me more.

If anyone [ else ] attempts this kind of "high intensity" op session and they have "problems", let me know and I might be able to help. Why just in the Central Florida area I can recommend any of 3 therapists....

Mike Brock


Re: How to "model the prototype" - in terms of Ops?

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:

Dave

I've never heard anyone claim 300+ trains in a day on that route, but 200+ was
definitely possible in WWII and even going back to the late 1800's -- You could
call the PRR 'unique' in that respect; no one could touch them for sheer density
of traffic in that era.


Tim O'Connor

Tim,

Slight error in my recollection. The data I have indicates that the peak PRR traffic over the Allegheny summit occurred on July 25, 1943, with a total of 11,145 freight cars. The number of freight trains for that date is not specified, but the all-time peak was 222 freight trains. For the years '42-'45, each year's peak month averaged 120-127 freight trains per day, while averaging around 9300-9400 cars per day over that month. Unknown why the record was nearly 100 trains above the averages for the peak months.

There was some significant seasonal variations. Nearly all EB traffic over the summit was loaded, while WB traffic ran 70-75% empties (a lot of that was hoppers). Note that the "west" slope up to the summit was 1% ruling and required helpers for EB freight (not for EB passenger trains, which were a little overpowered to maintain schedules). The east slope required helpers for nearly all WB traffic, although there are pictures of decapods pulling some of the shorter, empty hopper strings up the east slope solo (1.75%).

Normal PRR passenger traffic over that summit during the same period was a minimum of 88 passenger and mail trains. Plus additional trains if there were additional passenger sections or MAIN troop trains.

Sorry for any confusion,

Dave Evans


Re: ADMIN: Re: Exactrail -- THANK YOU

water.kresse@...
 

Thank you


ADMIN: Re: Exactrail

Mikebrock
 

Scott Pitzer replies to:

"...all over the groups, I saw it on the D List."

With:

" had no idea Kathy Griffin would care!"

Since I don't know what frt cars Kathy Griffin [ whoever she is ] is associated with, this seems like a good place to terminate this thread. Therefore, the thread with the subject of Exactrail or any other associated with whether a LHS is the best means to operate a MR selling business is now terminated.

Back to frt cars.

Mike Brock...Being buffeted by the wind from many sighs of relief...
STMFC Owner


Re: Exactrail

Scott Pitzer
 


You know this same thread is all over the groups, I saw it on the D List.
---------------
I had no idea Kathy Griffin would care!
:-)
Scott Pitzer


Re: Sunshine Models Meets

charles slater
 

He has not in the past.
Charlie




To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: tnbirke@sbcglobal.net
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 14:52:22 -0500
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Sunshine Models Meets






Does Bob's Photo attend?

Tom
Bartlesville, OK

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
charles slater
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2012 12:45 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Sunshine Models Meets

He will be there.
Charlie Slater


To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
From: pa.bizier@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 15:57:39 +0000
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Models Meets

Does anyone know if Martin is planning on attending the ATSF Convention in
Temple this summer? Thanks in advance,

Paul Bizier



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Exactrail

Andy Harman
 

At 08:31 PM 4/3/2012 +0000, you wrote:

In my case I had quit the hobby for almost 20 years. In 1988 I noticed a
small train shop in Maynard Massachusetts (now closed) and wandered
in.
Ah yes, the middle aged re-entry... I think that is the case for many, but I've never been out of the hobby. Not even when I should have been. Yep, I was playing with trains when I should have been playing foobaw and dating cheerleaders in high school, and I was playing with trains in my dorm room when I should have been getting my BS in computer science, and playing with trains in my apartment when working my first job and whatever didn't go for rent, food, and gas went for trains.

While I have no memory of my intro to the hobby, I have had the occasional curious acquaintance ask about it. I tell them to go to a show, or to the LHS, sometimes they do... but for the most part nobody really seems to stick with it. I think a lot of people like model trains, and might even go to shows regularly, and even tell themselves they're going to get into it... but reality is they don't have the inclination. But even those folks support the hobby by coming to shows, and maybe they have a kid, or a friend they bring along.

Andy


Re: Exactrail

Andy Harman
 

At 03:39 PM 4/3/2012 -0400, you wrote:

It's Exactrail's business model for whatever reason. But I for one think we have little to do with their business model. If allowed this could go on for days...
I dunno. I've got a couple thousand sunk into their business. I don't have any say in what they do or how they do it, but what they do and how they do it does affect me.

Andy


Re: Exactrail

Andy Harman
 

At 07:01 PM 4/3/2012 +0000, you wrote:
comes in. Complaining about "unfair" competition does not make a valid business plan. If it does not work, then well, maybe your business plan needs to be revised... That is called capitalism ;^)
Yep. I too have nostalgia for the neighborhood hobbyshop. I also have nostalgia for premium leaded gasoline, 427 cubic inch grocery getters, tube amplifiers, GP30s, 4-8-4s, Pullman cars, manned spaceflight, and actual customer service. I believe in supporting my LHS, and I do. I also buy my stuff from many, many other sources because they have what I want when I want it, even if I only realize when it's in front of me at a show, that what is that, and when is now.

Andy


Re: Exactrail

Andy Harman
 

At 11:29 AM 4/3/2012 -0700, you wrote:
I'm not sure how serious Walthers ever was about their "requirements."
And yet Horizon cut off a *legitimate* brick and mortar store... why? Because his contact phone was a cell and he didn't have a land line. He got it back, but - still - the requirements are basically unenforceable, not because they can't be checked out but because the distributors can't afford to lose 50% of their customers no matter what they try to make the other 50% believe.

I really think basement or storefront, one's likelihood of remaining a customer of Walthers - or Horizon - is directly proportionate to their total purchases.

Andy


Re: Exactrail

Andy Harman
 

At 01:24 PM 4/3/2012 -0500, you wrote:
So, in short, you've never owned an LHS, would never own an LHS, yet somehow
believe basement bombers are no harm to the LHS? Based on what?
I would not own an LHS because I believe that the business model is dead unless you have a major (as in, Chicago) metro area to serve and/or don't care about making money.

I wouldn't be a basement bomber either, but at least there is no overhead.

Don't get me wrong, I love the LHS. Basement bombers didn't come into existence to destroy the LHS, they came into existence to fill a demand that the LHS wasn't able to respond to. I'd love to have a Des Plaines hobbies in every town, but all of my wishing won't make it happen, nor would putting the basement bombers out of business make it happen. The BBs are part of the system and if you made them all go away, it would hurt the hobby by reducing the number of dealers and the availability of product overall. Would the LHSs take up the slack? Some of it, albeit slowly. But the bottom line is, it's not going to happen.

Andy


Re: Exactrail

Tim O'Connor
 

In my case I had quit the hobby for almost 20 years. In 1988 I noticed a
small train shop in Maynard Massachusetts (now closed) and wandered
in. He had several built up models of Tichy freight cars. I had never seen
such fine looking plastic kits before -- I grew up when all you could get was
Athearn and that ilk. He also had Front Range kits. I walked out with a few
items, learned about a nearby club from the owner, visited the club, and
everything snowballed from there. If that chance encounter had never
happened (and could not happen today) I probably would never have
become interested in trains all over again.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Harman" <gsgondola@gp30.com>

Maybe we should ask new modelers (yes, there are some) how they are getting
attracted to the hobby. I think that today - and as always - attraction
comes from family involvement, friends, word of mouth - more so than
someone casually stumbling into a hobby shop on his lunch hour.

Andy

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