Date   

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@comcast.net>

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

jerryglow2
 

I can tell you for one that it doesn't thin with MEK like the old stuff. I don't use the new formula as it's too darn thick and stringy.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Jun 14, 2012, at 5:44 PM, Armand Premo wrote:

Mike,Following Denny's lead,I use Barge Cement.It works for me.Awake?barely.It is in the seventies with a nice breeze off the lake.Hardly weather for building models.Regards,A
Armand & others,
After not buying Barge cement for a number of years, I recently ran out of my supply only to learn that the adhesive is now available only in a toluene-free formula. The package color changed from yellow & red to blue. I've read a number of on-line reviews about the new formula claiming the toluene-free formula doesn't work nearly as well.

For years I have used the old formula to attach steel nuts inside of box cars & reefers for weights. For obvious reasons I wouldn't want these pieces becoming unglued inside an assembled plastic or urethane box car or reefer.

I would like to hear comments from people who have used the new formula and if you have found it acceptable.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

Darned... forgot to sign the last message.

Dennis


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'
Let me star with this premise... I don't think Evergreen strips and shapes are extruded, I think they are milled, the same basic technique as Northeastern milled shapes, although not on the same machinery. Just as background, years ago Evergreen used to have the booth adjacent to Accurail at the Rosemont show, and while I never meant the owner, I did have dinner with their salesman a couple times. One night over dinner and drinks (lotsa drinks) I was reverse engineering what I thought their "secret process" might be, and the guy said, "well, of course I can't disclose our process, but you're close." Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and so I don't feel bad making my next statements, because just because someone knows how something is done, doesn't mean they can do it without countless hours of experimentation to work out the bugs.

Anyone familiar with a horizontal milling machine? Basically a lead-screw driven table that passes under an arbor (shaft) that is accurately spaced above the table, and adjustable for depth of cut. The easiest way to cut a sheet of material into accurate width strips is to gang up a whole bunch of cutters (in this case slotting saws) spaced apart by accurately sized spaces, and run a sheet fastened to the table through. If you look at the thicker Evergreen pieces under magnification, you will see that two opposite surfaces have the "pebble finish" of plain sheet, while the other two have faint diagonal lines, basically saw swirls, except the saw is large in relation to the thickness of the sheet, so you don't see much curvature in the marks.

If you don't run the cutters all the way through the thickness of the sheet, you wind up with a sheet with a series of grooves, such as the base sheet for Evergreen standing seam roof. If you substitute milling cutters ground to a point, you'll get V groove siding; Cutters with an angular surface the width of the boards yields clapboard siding. If you stack up a combination of properly sized cutters, saws, and spacers, you can turn a sheet into a bunch of angle strips, or channels. Do a preliminary operation on the other side of the sheet, and you can make H section. As an aside, this is the same way Special Shapes brass shapes are made. So you see, there is really no reason they can't make Z section except either no one has suggested it, or they don't think it will sell.

There may be some practical consideration as to why the don't do smaller shapes than .060", but I really suspect it's more the perception that smaller than that strips are visually the same. It would be nice if someone would convince them to add shapes cut from .040" sheet, and maybe even .030" sheet. .030" Z would be 4-3/4" in N scale, maybe acceptable. .020" would be 3-1/4", but flange thickness might be a problem.

The same reasoning goes to flange thickness... their finest seems to be .009", and may have been picked as much because standard cutters work out that way than for any other reason.

Keep in mind that any new changes from what they are doing now will likely require several grand in custom ground cutters, so I'm sure they don't take the consideration of new product lightly.

I always wanted to see them make .010" X .010", to add muntins to Grandt Line windows, but I wouldn't be able to see it now anyway :-(


Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

Mike

Try Aleene's Tacky Glue. Comes in a Gold Bottle. It is a Water Base
glue. I have used it on Wood to Wood, Wood to Styrene, Metal to Metal
you name it, it will hold it together. I Custom Built the NP
St Cloud, Mn depot and I built the walls out of Evergreen and then
laminated Holgate and Reynolds Vinal Brick Material, no problem. I
really like it when gluing in Clear for window Glass. It drys Clear
and it schrenks. If you get any over flow on the window Glase just
wait a minute and then you can just rube it off, no marks left.
When used to hold sides of buildings together, wood to wood I put a
lot on the inside corner. When it dries it schrinks and you can
hardly see it. Oh yes, I forgot you can get it at Michael's or any
Craft Arts store.

Believe me it works.
Ed Ursem


Re: Evergreen's owner died.

Rhbale@...
 

From the June edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist...
Evergreen Models Inc., a major supplier of styrene sheets and shapes for
the hobby industry, has been purchased by Chicago businessman Herb Rizzo.
Mr. Rizzo is part-owner of RC equipment maker SIG Manufacturing. Evergreen
was founded Brian Ellerby who died in April, 2010.
FYI Model Railroader based their news announcement on a report released by
their sister trade publication Model Retailer magazine. Both were in error
and they have since issued a correction and apology.
Richard Bale
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine. Always free at _mrhmag.com_
(http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)

In a message dated 6/15/2012 6:07:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bbussey@optonline.net writes:




Model Railroader reported that California Hobby Distributors acquired
Evergreen.

bb

On 6/15/2012 8:34 AM, AZTECFAN wrote:

I have not heard if they were sold. Let's hope someone buys them.
Getting hard to find places to buy the stuff.

Jim Sleeth

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Charlie Vlk
 

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

spsalso
 

I made something like this to shape aluminum. In my case, I made it of steel and in two pieces. I chose the two-piece method because I didn't think there'd be a chance in hell in doing the "draw" in a single pull. It took multiple times as I gradually closed the two pieces together. I think if you were doing this thing "at home" (as I did), that pulling a plastic strip through would take multiple pulls, too; as the plastic would probably tear if you tried it with one pull.

While this method would never be commercially viable, it could certainly occupy a few leisurely hours at home.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'



"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Aley, Jeff A
 

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor
Evergreen doesn't make sheet in black... they BUY black sheet, cut it to smaller sizes, package it, and re-sell it. They could do the same with gray, if gray extruded sheets were available, but I don't think they are. The could make their strips and shapes from the black sheet, but I'm not sure that working with black would be any easier than working with white, and would be difficult to paint.

I'll second the motion for Z section, but in sizes smaller than 1/16", which seems to be their smallest size for angles and channels, too. Actually, it's .060", which scales out to 5-1/4" in HO scale. That's only good for the middle end posts on some boxcars. Most car framing was either 3" or 3-1/2" (can't find a reference quickly), .040" would work well for the later. .030" and .040" would be useful sizes for angles and channels, too.

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis


Re: Looking for an HO scale 5 ft wheelbase truck

S. Busch
 

Brian Everett asked about PRR 5' wheel base trucks, type 2F-F3, for an HO PRR F34 flat.

Brian,

Precision Scale has a 5' wb truck which they call "Truck kit, PRR series caboose, single coil spring w/33" wheels, 5' WB, type I". Part number is HO-32227.

They have another, same description as above, but they call it a "Type II" instead. Part number for this is HO-32228.

Walthers shows an illustration of this second one here:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-32228

Hope that's of some help but I don't know enough about the PRR to help any further, though.

Regards,
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor


Re: Red Caboose Reefers

Bruce Smith
 

Mark,

These are PFE R-30-12-9 rebuilt reefers. As noted, the P&L are foobies. Nice models except for the molded on brake gear and fodder for a number of additional rebuilds of R-30-12 and R-30-13 (with a Tichy underframe) with the addition of a steel roof (R-30-12/13-16) or steel roof and ends (R-30-12/13-18).


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Jun 14, 2012, at 7:13 PM, Mark M wrote:

Purchased a lot of three Red Caboose cars. One B&O M26 and two reefers

RC -4435-01 Northern Pacific post 1942 Yellow

RC-4440-j Merchants Despatch white w/red & blue stripes

Look through previous messages and believe these are foobies but can be stripped and used for PFE.

Any help appreciated and Thank You very much.

Mark Morgan



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Evergreen's owner died.

Bryan Busséy
 

Model Railroader reported that California Hobby Distributors acquired
Evergreen.

bb

On 6/15/2012 8:34 AM, AZTECFAN wrote:

I have not heard if they were sold. Let's hope someone buys them.
Getting hard to find places to buy the stuff.

Jim Sleeth


Walthers-P1K USRA composite gons

Eric Hansmann
 

Something caught my eye on the Model Railroader New Products list yesterday
(6/14). Walthers is releasing a 40-ton drop bottom gondola as a part of their HO
scale Trainline series. I wondered what this could be....a 40-ton....drop
bottom....gondola....hmmm...

I quickly checked their web site and had no luck. I tried again in the Advanced
Search, using the same phrase as the New Product release wording - 40-ton drop
bottom gondola. There it was! It looks like they are reissuing the Proto1000
USRA composite gondola, without labeling it as a USRA gondola. I guess there
would be too much confusion with the USRA Mill Gondola(?).

Here's the link to my search results:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Freight&scale=H&manu=walthers&item=&keywords=drop+bottom+gondola&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search
<http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Freight&scale=H&manu=walthers&item=&keywords=drop+bottom+gondola&words=restrict&instock=Q&split=30&Submit=Search>

Roadnames include: AT&SF, C&NW, GN, MILW, NYC, and RI.

In reviewing the product images, I noted these interesting details.

AT&SF - Has a built date of 4-30 (??)
C&NW - Has a 7-37 reweigh date
GN - Has a large herald in the center of the car
MILW - Has MILW reporting marks and a 5-46 New date
NYC - Painted BLACK and has the Lines OVAL!!!
RI - Has a reweigh date in 48


I am only familiar with the NYC paint and lettering, and it follows the as built
style. Models with a later New or reweigh date seem suspect to me.

All models have cast-on grab irons and ratchet hand brake components.
Additionally, these models in the sample images are equipped with AAR cast steel
sideframe truck ("Bettendorf") and an AB brake system air tank. IIRC, those
underframes are cast metal so backdating the brake system would/could be a
challenge. I do not know if Walthers has redesigned and/or reengineered the
underframes. The prototype gondolas were equipped with KD air brake systems and
Andrews trucks, as built.

As per a handy USRA composite gon roster, here are additional comparative
details.

The AT&SF was not alloted USRA composite gons.

One of the C&NW car numbers is wrong. C&NW 24642 should be an odd numbered car
as the C&NW did not number any USRA composite gons with even numbers within this
number range.

The GN was not alloted USRA composite gons. I-GN was, but that was not the same
railroad.

MILW received clones, but Walthers is offering these MILW cars with numbers that
were assigned after these were rebuilt with steel sides.

The NYC cars actually have proper numbers that were a part of Lot-389G.

The RI was not alloted USRA composite gons.


So out of 12 models in this release, only two wear truly correct paint and
lettering (NYC) and one C&NW car has a proper number. I am uncertain if the C&NW
paint and lettering follows the prototype. These gondolas have a potential to be
solid, layout-ready models that can beef up a 1920s through early 1930s HO scale
layout at a low cost. Sadly, only a few of these models follow specific
prototypes but only if the brake systems and trucks are changed.

Eric



Eric Hansmann
New Paltz, NY


Evergreen's owner died.

AZTECFAN <aztecfan@...>
 

I have not heard if they were sold. Let's hope someone buys them. Getting hard to find places to buy the stuff.

Jim Sleeth


Re: Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

Bob Sterner
 

I've been using Barge for this. I bought my first tube of the new formula a couple of months ago and I haven't noticed a difference but I'll pay more attention now. I just bought my first container of canopy cement and coincidentally enough attached my first roof walk with it this week. I'd say it's easier to do a neat job with the canopy cement than with the Barge.

Bob Sterner
St. Paul, MN

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lnbill" <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I remember suggesting this before and was more or less hooted down but I would prefer having a drill template to create holes in the roof so that I could use an adhesive on the underside of the roof like epoxy. For situations where the roof is already glued on, one could make the holes tight enough that the roof would stay on with friction.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, RUTLANDRS@ wrote:

Mike,
Some time ago on this site, barge cement and canopy cement were
discussed at length as good adhesives for dissimilar roof/running board
attachment.
Chuck Hladik


In a message dated 6/14/2012 6:04:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brockm@ writes:




For those that have attached Kadee running boards [ I almost wrote roof
walks...gasp! ] to plastic roofs...what do you use for an adhesive? I'm
having trouble with CA types of glue with this process.

Armand, I'm pretty sure you've done this...are you awake up there?

Mike Brock






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

rdgbuff56
 

Evergreen could make various size ribs for covered hoppers and more modern boxcars.  Modelers could trim them to size.
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
Sunbury, Pa.


________________________________
From: "sartherdj@aol.com" <sartherdj@aol.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?


 



Chuck is correct. My last order from Northeastern Scale Models, Inc. included the "Z" structural shapes. 1/16" Zees

You can access their on-line catalog at: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/NESLCatalog_2008.pdf
Pricelist: http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/uploads/pdfs/Retail%20Price%20List%202011.pdf

Northeastern Scale Models, INC.
99 Cross Street
Metheun, MA 01844

1-978-688-6019
1-800-343-2094

Hope this helps, Later, Dave S.

-----Original Message-----
From: RUTLANDRS <mailto:RUTLANDRS%40aol.com>
To: STMFC <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jun 14, 2012 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Nelson,
I believe that Northeastern makes them in the real scratchbuilding
material, wood!
Chuck Hladik

In a message dated 6/14/2012 4:42:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mailto:ku0a%40mchsi.com writes:

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars. Up to now, the only scratchbuilding option is to
build them up from individual strips of styrene.

Nelson Moyer

-----Original Message-----
From: mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com)
[mailto:mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of
spsalso
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:09 PM
To: mailto:_STMFC%40yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [STMFC] Evergreen--hat section? And more?

It's been suggested that it would be nice if Evergreen made hat section.
Can
anyone supply drawings and/or dimensions for this?

I wonder also how standardized hat section was. Any opinions?

Are there other "special shapes" that Evergreen could produce that would be
useful?

Ed

Edward Sutorik

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


help needed for CNJ

jerryglow2
 

I'm doing a set for a 1950 era CNJ covered hopper for a customer and
thought I'd include other versions in my line. I need to know when the
herald and reporting marks changed and approximate dates valid for the
following variations:
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/samples/CNJ_LOx4.jpg

thanks
--
Jerry Glow
The Villages FL
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals

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