Date   
Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

rdgbuff56
 

Even a few different size "hat sections" with overscale.010 flanges would save a lot of work.  Most of us use 0.10 anyhow.
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
sunbury, Pa.


________________________________
From: Tim O'Connor <@timboconnor>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



 


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's)
Yes.

Dennis

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'
I just read Tim's message again, this time for content :-)

What he's asking for is a forming tool, kind of like a jeweler's draw plate, although it will have to form the styrene by scraping rather than drawing.

Yeah, it works. Years ago I used that technique to make the ribs for a corrugated end pattern. I clamped square styrene in a piece of Special shapes brass angle and scraped the exposed corner with a razor blade to get a triangular strip, then stoned a notch in the edge of a razor blade to form the round nose on the triangle. I've also used notches ground in the corner of a razor blade to scrape the ground molding shape into the edges of plastic shingle roofs so the edge didn't look so heavy.

The biggest problem is forming a tiny but accurately sized notch in a very hard material, although a wire EDM shop could do it easily. After that, it just takes a lot of time to scrape the strips to shape.

Dennis

Re: Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

Tim O'Connor
 

Ed

For those hidden weights I've always used DAP silicone caulk. You have to let it dry overnight but
it is NEVER coming loose. :-)

I've never been able to find Barge cement for sale so I use other contact cement brands that still
have all that nasty stuff in them, dilute them with MEK, and they work wonderfully. Weldbond is the
brand I've used the most. Hobby Tac is another. (But this has also been recently changed so I
don't know if it's any good now.)

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: jerryglow@...

For years I have used the old formula to attach steel nuts inside of box cars & reefers for weights. For obvious reasons I wouldn't want these pieces becoming unglued inside an assembled plastic or urethane box car or reefer.

I would like to hear comments from people who have used the new formula and if you have found it acceptable.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Re: Red Caboose Reefers

Brian Ehni <behni@...>
 

I have one of the built-up Taurus kits for the Rock Island reefer. Although
the kit is still available, I wish I didn't have to buy the kit just to get
the decals (Walthers does not show them separately).


Thanks!
--

Brian P. Ehni

From: <jerryglow@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Friday, June 15, 2012 1:41 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Red Caboose Reefers






My NP reefer is a RC kit with Central Valley radial roof. I was advised by
Jack Parker of CV and a NP modeler that this was very close. The Rock
Island is also a RC kit using decals Microscale made for a craftsman kit
that came out in both PFE and RI versions.
see: http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/more_reefers.html

I now have decals for the NP one

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Mark M"
<bnonut@...> wrote:

Purchased a lot of three Red Caboose cars. One B&O M26 and two reefers

RC -4435-01 Northern Pacific post 1942 Yellow

RC-4440-j Merchants Despatch white w/red & blue stripes

Look through previous messages and believe these are foobies but can be
stripped and used for PFE.

Any help appreciated and Thank You very much.

Mark Morgan








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff you may never have built the Tichy rebuilt USRA box car then. :-)

This kit is completely injected molded, and includes door guides with a .010 slit which takes
an even thinner molded shim that is glued to the backside of the door -- this gives you a door
that slides in the door track like the prototype, but it is completely invisible when the door is
open and you look through at the back of a closed door on the opposite side.

My guess is that you can injection mold scale hat sections with flanges. One large mold probably
could make a hundred pieces including verticals and diagonals with and without gussets... And
maybe they could throw in some SEAM CAPS too, which is a part I dearly wish we had in styrene.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff A Aley" <Jeff.A.Aley@...>

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff

Re: Red Caboose Reefers

jerryglow2
 

My NP reefer is a RC kit with Central Valley radial roof. I was advised by Jack Parker of CV and a NP modeler that this was very close. The Rock Island is also a RC kit using decals Microscale made for a craftsman kit that came out in both PFE and RI versions.
see: http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/more_reefers.html

I now have decals for the NP one

Jerry Glow
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/decals

--- In STMFC@..., "Mark M" <bnonut@...> wrote:

Purchased a lot of three Red Caboose cars. One B&O M26 and two reefers

RC -4435-01 Northern Pacific post 1942 Yellow

RC-4440-j Merchants Despatch white w/red & blue stripes

Look through previous messages and believe these are foobies but can be stripped and used for PFE.

Any help appreciated and Thank You very much.

Mark Morgan

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

Does "Z" channel have 90 degree corners (basically, two L's) or does it have acute (less than 90 degree) corners like the letter "Z"?

Either way, I agree Z channel is needed.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...>

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk

Re: Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

jerryglow2
 

I can tell you for one that it doesn't thin with MEK like the old stuff. I don't use the new formula as it's too darn thick and stringy.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Jun 14, 2012, at 5:44 PM, Armand Premo wrote:

Mike,Following Denny's lead,I use Barge Cement.It works for me.Awake?barely.It is in the seventies with a nice breeze off the lake.Hardly weather for building models.Regards,A
Armand & others,
After not buying Barge cement for a number of years, I recently ran out of my supply only to learn that the adhesive is now available only in a toluene-free formula. The package color changed from yellow & red to blue. I've read a number of on-line reviews about the new formula claiming the toluene-free formula doesn't work nearly as well.

For years I have used the old formula to attach steel nuts inside of box cars & reefers for weights. For obvious reasons I wouldn't want these pieces becoming unglued inside an assembled plastic or urethane box car or reefer.

I would like to hear comments from people who have used the new formula and if you have found it acceptable.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

Darned... forgot to sign the last message.

Dennis

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'
Let me star with this premise... I don't think Evergreen strips and shapes are extruded, I think they are milled, the same basic technique as Northeastern milled shapes, although not on the same machinery. Just as background, years ago Evergreen used to have the booth adjacent to Accurail at the Rosemont show, and while I never meant the owner, I did have dinner with their salesman a couple times. One night over dinner and drinks (lotsa drinks) I was reverse engineering what I thought their "secret process" might be, and the guy said, "well, of course I can't disclose our process, but you're close." Of course, as always, the devil is in the details, and so I don't feel bad making my next statements, because just because someone knows how something is done, doesn't mean they can do it without countless hours of experimentation to work out the bugs.

Anyone familiar with a horizontal milling machine? Basically a lead-screw driven table that passes under an arbor (shaft) that is accurately spaced above the table, and adjustable for depth of cut. The easiest way to cut a sheet of material into accurate width strips is to gang up a whole bunch of cutters (in this case slotting saws) spaced apart by accurately sized spaces, and run a sheet fastened to the table through. If you look at the thicker Evergreen pieces under magnification, you will see that two opposite surfaces have the "pebble finish" of plain sheet, while the other two have faint diagonal lines, basically saw swirls, except the saw is large in relation to the thickness of the sheet, so you don't see much curvature in the marks.

If you don't run the cutters all the way through the thickness of the sheet, you wind up with a sheet with a series of grooves, such as the base sheet for Evergreen standing seam roof. If you substitute milling cutters ground to a point, you'll get V groove siding; Cutters with an angular surface the width of the boards yields clapboard siding. If you stack up a combination of properly sized cutters, saws, and spacers, you can turn a sheet into a bunch of angle strips, or channels. Do a preliminary operation on the other side of the sheet, and you can make H section. As an aside, this is the same way Special Shapes brass shapes are made. So you see, there is really no reason they can't make Z section except either no one has suggested it, or they don't think it will sell.

There may be some practical consideration as to why the don't do smaller shapes than .060", but I really suspect it's more the perception that smaller than that strips are visually the same. It would be nice if someone would convince them to add shapes cut from .040" sheet, and maybe even .030" sheet. .030" Z would be 4-3/4" in N scale, maybe acceptable. .020" would be 3-1/4", but flange thickness might be a problem.

The same reasoning goes to flange thickness... their finest seems to be .009", and may have been picked as much because standard cutters work out that way than for any other reason.

Keep in mind that any new changes from what they are doing now will likely require several grand in custom ground cutters, so I'm sure they don't take the consideration of new product lightly.

I always wanted to see them make .010" X .010", to add muntins to Grandt Line windows, but I wouldn't be able to see it now anyway :-(

Attaching Kadee running boards to plastic roofs

Ed <nprybiged@...>
 

Mike

Try Aleene's Tacky Glue. Comes in a Gold Bottle. It is a Water Base
glue. I have used it on Wood to Wood, Wood to Styrene, Metal to Metal
you name it, it will hold it together. I Custom Built the NP
St Cloud, Mn depot and I built the walls out of Evergreen and then
laminated Holgate and Reynolds Vinal Brick Material, no problem. I
really like it when gluing in Clear for window Glass. It drys Clear
and it schrenks. If you get any over flow on the window Glase just
wait a minute and then you can just rube it off, no marks left.
When used to hold sides of buildings together, wood to wood I put a
lot on the inside corner. When it dries it schrinks and you can
hardly see it. Oh yes, I forgot you can get it at Michael's or any
Craft Arts store.

Believe me it works.
Ed Ursem

Re: Evergreen's owner died.

Richard Bale
 

From the June edition of Model Railroad Hobbyist...
Evergreen Models Inc., a major supplier of styrene sheets and shapes for
the hobby industry, has been purchased by Chicago businessman Herb Rizzo.
Mr. Rizzo is part-owner of RC equipment maker SIG Manufacturing. Evergreen
was founded Brian Ellerby who died in April, 2010.
FYI Model Railroader based their news announcement on a report released by
their sister trade publication Model Retailer magazine. Both were in error
and they have since issued a correction and apology.
Richard Bale
Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine. Always free at _mrhmag.com_
(http://www.model-railroad-hobbyist.com/)

In a message dated 6/15/2012 6:07:36 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
bbussey@... writes:




Model Railroader reported that California Hobby Distributors acquired
Evergreen.

bb

On 6/15/2012 8:34 AM, AZTECFAN wrote:

I have not heard if they were sold. Let's hope someone buys them.
Getting hard to find places to buy the stuff.

Jim Sleeth

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Charlie Vlk
 

Z-channel! CB&Q used Z-channel instead of hat channel for framing
single-sheathed boxcars.

Still a sticking point after 50 years!!! I got into N Scale when I
realized that even Northeastern Z-channel was too big to scratchbuild the
stock cars, boxcars, and gons I would need to model the CB&Q properly...on
the theory that nobody in their right mind would ever attempt to model a
prototype in N.

That was back in the days before fabricating fine structural shapes out of
styrene was not an option and RP production of entire carbodies wasn't even
a dream.

Charlie Vlk

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

spsalso
 

I made something like this to shape aluminum. In my case, I made it of steel and in two pieces. I chose the two-piece method because I didn't think there'd be a chance in hell in doing the "draw" in a single pull. It took multiple times as I gradually closed the two pieces together. I think if you were doing this thing "at home" (as I did), that pulling a plastic strip through would take multiple pulls, too; as the plastic would probably tear if you tried it with one pull.

While this method would never be commercially viable, it could certainly occupy a few leisurely hours at home.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'



"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Aley, Jeff A
 

And leave an acceptably thin flange? That's the part that I can't imagine. I can't even imagine extruding a shape (from liquid styrene) that has flanges that are 0.010" or thinner.

I hope Dennis can comment, since my imagination is severely limited. :)

Regards,

-Jeff


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?



Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

Dennis, you know a lot about tooling and such. Would it be possible
to make a "die" (or whatever it's called) that you could pull a styrene
strip (like a 2x4 or whatever) and it would "shave" the strip into a
hat section?

Tim O'

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor
Evergreen doesn't make sheet in black... they BUY black sheet, cut it to smaller sizes, package it, and re-sell it. They could do the same with gray, if gray extruded sheets were available, but I don't think they are. The could make their strips and shapes from the black sheet, but I'm not sure that working with black would be any easier than working with white, and would be difficult to paint.

I'll second the motion for Z section, but in sizes smaller than 1/16", which seems to be their smallest size for angles and channels, too. Actually, it's .060", which scales out to 5-1/4" in HO scale. That's only good for the middle end posts on some boxcars. Most car framing was either 3" or 3-1/2" (can't find a reference quickly), .040" would work well for the later. .030" and .040" would be useful sizes for angles and channels, too.

"Hat section" is problematic, as there was no standard. Many cars, many different dimensions, some that tapered along their length. Since hat section posts were pressings, many from our period also had differing width flanges to make integral gussets at the end of the members. Hat section posts for modern cars would be a possibility, but their flanges would have to be thinner that anything Evergreen currently makes, at least for use in HO scale.

Dennis

Re: Looking for an HO scale 5 ft wheelbase truck

S. Busch
 

Brian Everett asked about PRR 5' wheel base trucks, type 2F-F3, for an HO PRR F34 flat.

Brian,

Precision Scale has a 5' wb truck which they call "Truck kit, PRR series caboose, single coil spring w/33" wheels, 5' WB, type I". Part number is HO-32227.

They have another, same description as above, but they call it a "Type II" instead. Part number for this is HO-32228.

Walthers shows an illustration of this second one here:

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-32228

Hope that's of some help but I don't know enough about the PRR to help any further, though.

Regards,
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC

Re: Evergreen--hat section? And more?

Tim O'Connor
 

I have a much simpler idea. If Evergreen can make sheet in black,
why not I-beams in dark grey and tubes in black? I think these will
outsell hat section about 100 to 1...

Tim O'Connor