I apologize if you've received this before but I'm having trouble
getting on STMFC from my new email address and the old one is balking.
My new email address is westerfieldalfred@frontier.com. Mike, would you
arrange to change my membership info so I can receive posts at this new
address? Thanks.

Also, new phone number is 931-788-1916. - Al Westerfield



<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ray,

Thanks for the information.

I'm probably not buying a book for one picture, but could you tell me if the end has the indentation for the previous brake wheel arrangement? Supposedly the ends were switched before being welded.

Aaron

Hey Gang!
There is a nice color photo of the "b" end of G25b 349777 in service on the E.B.T.R.R. in Mt. Union, Pa. in the book "Slim Gauge Survivor" by Deanne Mellander, published by Old Line Graphics. The photo is found on page 20.
Ray Thibaut
teabow1958@gmail.com

The PRRT&HS Gondola book states in January 1950 1736 G25’s had their ends welded shut creating the class G25B this was completed by 1953. There was no picture included.



Mark



From: westerfield@charter.net [mailto:westerfield@charter.net]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 4:55 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: PRR G25b end question






Aaron - It's been a few years since I did that kit and I no longer have
the data as it went to the new owner. However, I can assure you that I
never would have issued the car unless I had difinitive information. -
Al Westerfield

On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 11:57 AM, cinderandeight@aol.com <mailto:cinderandeight%40aol.com> wrote:

Aaron,
I lack a photo of the end of a G25B, but I can direct you to three of
company drawing numbers that may be available via the PRRT&HS website's
microfilm collection. They are:
A429018 (General arrangement G25B)
D443179 & D443478 (End arrangement, fixed ends made from drop end)
I have numbers for a couple other details of the car also, but
unfortunately none of them address the brake issue directly. If you
are
interested contact me off list.
Rich Burg

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Sep 1, 2012, at 6:34 PM, Mark Stamm wrote:

I'd like to answer my own question or rather ask for confirmation
of what I think to be the correct answer.

The ARA Cast Sideframe truck of the 1930's has been mislabeled by
the model industry as the Bettendorf truck. Accurail makes a
reasonable version.

Would I be correct?

That's a bit of an oversimplification, Mark, but not incorrect.

Richard Hendrickson

Thank you, Rich and Al, for the responses.

I wanted to beat up the car, bowed sides and dented panels. But if the G25b's were rebuilt around 1951, the time of my interest, then the cars would have looked too fresh. They would have had new paint, and probably not as worn out as I would like mine to be.

I could back date it to a G25a, all the parts seem to be with the kit.

Aaron

Aaron - It's been a few years since I did that kit and I no longer have
the data as it went to the new owner. However, I can assure you that I
never would have issued the car unless I had difinitive information. -
Al Westerfield

I have done the following to create poling pockets, first on two Clinchfield GP-7's and then for some patterns I am creating for a freight car. In the Grandt Line parts line, there is a set of parts for lift rings with 3 different sizes on the sprue. They are offered in both styrene and brass. Sorry I do not remember the part number but for the poling pockets the styrene sprue is what is needed.

Using a fresh blade, trim off all of the mounting part of the molding to create little donuts. On the Geeps, I then glued the little donuts to the proper step area with Testers. For the freight car part, I used Testers to glue the donuts to some plain sheet styrene. Then I loaded up a brush w/Testers and flooded the donuts. I did this several times. Gradually the Testers, which does not flame off quickly, will "melt" the styrene donut until it looks like a stamping or forging. In other words the hole in the donut takes on a sort of cupped shape while the perimeter develops a flair or webbing on its edges. I am probably not doing a good job describing what happens with the terms I am using, but it does produce a very pleasing result.

For my freight car project, the donuts on the styrene sheet have been cast in resin, Then I slice these off w/a fresh blade and glue into the position I need w/ACC.

Bill Welch

The 1961 Car and Locomotive Cyclopedia has photos three photo of those cars
on page 162 – SHPX 3544 and 3457, plus one an unpainted/unlettered car.
They are 70-ton Hitch Hiker Bag Container cars for polyethylene pellets.
The description says “each car has two end compartments with capacity for
three bags and one middle compartment with a capacity for four bags or a
total of 10 bags per car” and “each bag is 7 ft. 6 in. diameter by 8 ft. 0
in. high.” Length is given as 85 ft. 0 in, light weight 80,000 lbs., load
limit 130,000 lbs. The ¾ view of car 3457 shows a large “PETROTHENE” sign
mounted on the car side.



Hope this helps.



Steve Johnson



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Larry Sexton
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:44 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Fwd: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)





David,

I am fairly certain that the second car was a conversion of one of the
Central of NJ 52' war emergency gons originally built with wood sides.
Sometime after WWII some of the gons received steel sides and were converted
to hauling Seal Bins. Seal Bins were fabric and steel cable reinforced
rubber bags shaped similar to a net float(as opposed to a fishing float)
with a discharge valve at one end and a lifting lug at the other. The
reinforcing cables were attached to the lifting lug.

They were designed to carry plastic pellets used in plastic molding from the
manufacturer to the plastic molder. They could be thought of as the
precursor to bean bags. The ones transported in these gons were about 9'00"
diameter and about 10-12' high. The gon would deliver the full Seal Bins to
the plastic molder where they would be hoisted from the gon using an
overhead hoist and trolley system which would allow them to be moved into
the plant along the trolley track and them dumped into a hopper at the
process equipment. Based on feedback from 20 years ago, I believe some of
them lasted well into the early 70s in their original design use.

Some of those who served in Nam may remember seeing choppers air-lifting
similar ones carrying gas or diesel fuel in-country. The military also had
smaller ones that were approximately 1/3-1/4 as large. Hope this helps.

Larry Sexton

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of
davidcofga@aol.com <mailto:davidcofga%40aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:47 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Fwd: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)

At the suggestion of one of the OSM members, I'm forwarding this to the
STMFC group.

The first car appears to be a covered gon used in hauling coil steel, but
what about the second one?

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia

____________________________________
From: DavidCofGa@aol.com <mailto:DavidCofGa%40aol.com>
<mailto:DavidCofGa%40aol.com>
To: OSCALEMODELERS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OSCALEMODELERS%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:OSCALEMODELERS%40yahoogroups.com>

CC: rad@nshore.org <mailto:rad%40nshore.org> <mailto:rad%40nshore.org>
Sent: 9/1/2012 5:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)

Folks,

Looking past the stanchions of much discussion, can anyone identify the
first two cars in this cut; particularly the second one ...

_RailPictures.Net Photo: CRN 10 Carolina & Northwestern Alco RS-3 at
Greenville, South Carolina by Martin K OToole_
(http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=56465)

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In one of Wayner's oft-maligned "Freight Car Pictorial" books there is a ACF builder's photo of SHPX 3457 which appears to be a match for the car in question. Built date appears to be 2-61 so it might be a car of the future. The caption says it was built to carry "Sealdbins" each with 10,000 pounds of plastic pellets.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

After another look, I have to agree that the car in question doesn't match
the photos of the rebuilt C of NJ 52' gons. However, I still think this car
was originally designed to transport Seal Bins based on the rounded raised
ends. The C of NJ rebuilt gons carried 7 rubber bins. Per the January 1969
ORER, the OTDX corporation operated 99 of the 52' container cars and 48 of
the 75' gons which carried 10 Seal Bins.



There is no reference in the ORER to any shorter container cars of this
type, which this gon appears to be based on the rounded ends and middle
panels. Absent of any identification information, it appears to be a
shortened ex-container car that is being used to transport coal.





The most knowledgeable person on the Seal Bin cars is probably Craig
Bossler.



Larry Sexton

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 1:03 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Fwd: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)





On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Larry Sexton wrote:

I am fairly certain that the second car was a conversion of one of the
Central of NJ 52' war emergency gons originally built with wood sides.
Sometime after WWII some of the gons received steel sides and were
converted
to hauling Seal Bins....

I know absolutely zero about seal bins, but I'm pretty sure the car
in question wasn't originally a war emergency mill gondola. The
framing is all wrong, and the WE gons had fishbelly side framing
which was an inherent part of the car structure. It it was, in fact,
a rebuild, then it appears that little of the original car was used
except perhaps the center sills, bolsters, and trucks.

Richard Hendrickson

On Sep 2, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Larry Sexton wrote:

I am fairly certain that the second car was a conversion of one of the
Central of NJ 52' war emergency gons originally built with wood sides.
Sometime after WWII some of the gons received steel sides and were
converted
to hauling Seal Bins....

I know absolutely zero about seal bins, but I'm pretty sure the car
in question wasn't originally a war emergency mill gondola. The
framing is all wrong, and the WE gons had fishbelly side framing
which was an inherent part of the car structure. It it was, in fact,
a rebuild, then it appears that little of the original car was used
except perhaps the center sills, bolsters, and trucks.

Richard Hendrickson

Aaron,
I lack a photo of the end of a G25B, but I can direct you to three of
company drawing numbers that may be available via the PRRT&HS website's
microfilm collection. They are:
A429018 (General arrangement G25B)
D443179 & D443478 (End arrangement, fixed ends made from drop end)
I have numbers for a couple other details of the car also, but
unfortunately none of them address the brake issue directly. If you are
interested contact me off list.
Rich Burg

David,



I am fairly certain that the second car was a conversion of one of the
Central of NJ 52' war emergency gons originally built with wood sides.
Sometime after WWII some of the gons received steel sides and were converted
to hauling Seal Bins. Seal Bins were fabric and steel cable reinforced
rubber bags shaped similar to a net float(as opposed to a fishing float)
with a discharge valve at one end and a lifting lug at the other. The
reinforcing cables were attached to the lifting lug.



They were designed to carry plastic pellets used in plastic molding from the
manufacturer to the plastic molder. They could be thought of as the
precursor to bean bags. The ones transported in these gons were about 9'00"
diameter and about 10-12' high. The gon would deliver the full Seal Bins to
the plastic molder where they would be hoisted from the gon using an
overhead hoist and trolley system which would allow them to be moved into
the plant along the trolley track and them dumped into a hopper at the
process equipment. Based on feedback from 20 years ago, I believe some of
them lasted well into the early 70s in their original design use.



Some of those who served in Nam may remember seeing choppers air-lifting
similar ones carrying gas or diesel fuel in-country. The military also had
smaller ones that were approximately 1/3-1/4 as large. Hope this helps.



Larry Sexton



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
davidcofga@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2012 11:47 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Fwd: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)






At the suggestion of one of the OSM members, I'm forwarding this to the
STMFC group.

The first car appears to be a covered gon used in hauling coil steel, but
what about the second one?

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia



____________________________________
From: DavidCofGa@aol.com <mailto:DavidCofGa%40aol.com>
To: OSCALEMODELERS@yahoogroups.com <mailto:OSCALEMODELERS%40yahoogroups.com>

CC: rad@nshore.org <mailto:rad%40nshore.org>
Sent: 9/1/2012 5:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)

Folks,

Looking past the stanchions of much discussion, can anyone identify the
first two cars in this cut; particularly the second one ...

_RailPictures.Net Photo: CRN 10 Carolina & Northwestern Alco RS-3 at
Greenville, South Carolina by Martin K OToole_
(http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=56465)

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia

At the suggestion of one of the OSM members, I'm forwarding this to the
STMFC group.

The first car appears to be a covered gon used in hauling coil steel, but
what about the second one?

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia



____________________________________
From: DavidCofGa@aol.com
To: OSCALEMODELERS@yahoogroups.com
CC: rad@nshore.org
Sent: 9/1/2012 5:42:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Freight Car Identification (was Stanchions)



Folks,

Looking past the stanchions of much discussion, can anyone identify the
first two cars in this cut; particularly the second one ...

_RailPictures.Net Photo: CRN 10 Carolina & Northwestern Alco RS-3 at
Greenville, South Carolina by Martin K OToole_
(http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=56465)

Thank you.

David Payne
Georgia

This is a Rock Island promo film of the late 1940s and it features many good run by shots. Take a look at the freight train around 9:52 in the film and near 14:00 there is a carbon black covered hopper followed by two Warren tank cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfhV3cjdKDo&feature=relmfu

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock

On Sep 1, 2012, at 8:35 PM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Mike DeSensi asked:
"I have a few questions about an Atlas N-scale USRA Steel Rebuilt box
with a Missouri Pacific Blue/Grey/Yellow scheme that I came across
just recently. Link to Atlas web site photo here

<http://www.atlasrr.com/Images/NFreightCars/nsteelrebuilt/0408/
45835_TQ.jpg> .

How accurate is this model car vs. the prototype?"

One more thing - on top of everything else, Atlas botched the paint
on this model - the ends should be gray.

(For the MoPac guys - the prototype photo of MP 46894 referenced in
my last post shows blue carlines on the roof - did these cars receive
both gray and blue roofs? The running board in the photo is gray.)
Ben Hom

Mike,
MoPac's 1950s steel rebuilds were not from USRA box cars, and the Atlas
MP model is totally bogus. Most of the 40' steel rebuilds came from
single-sheathed Howe-truss box cars. Some originated as 40' SS auto
cars. Because the steel rebuilds originated from a number of different
groups of cars, there were different ends (none of which were 5/5/5
Murphy). These MoPac cars tended to be various renditions of later
Murphy ends (1924-1926) or Dreadnaught ends used from 1927-1930.

The MP painting/lettering diagram for both 36' and 40' Eagle
Merchandise Service cars specify they received gray ends and unpainted
galvanized roofs (new diagonal panel roofs were used) with gray paint
applied to the roof seam caps. Color photos of these cars have been
seen with blue ends. This followed MoPac's general practice of painting
ends of their passenger cars blue starting circa 1951.

The Morning Sun MP color guide book on page 35 shows MP 46960 and 4126?
(last digit cut off) both with blue ends. The 46960 is in relatively
fresh paint with DES. 10-51 reweigh stencils. The photo was taken
1-30-54, so my guess is the car could have been repainted without
having been more recently reweighed.

Joe Collias photographed on black & white film 36' car MP 121491 from a
bridge in July 1951. The car shows DES. 12-50 for the date the car
completed its rebuilding and was weighed. The overhead view clearly
shows the roof and running boards were unpainted. Very difficult to
discern are the gray seam caps that blend into the galvanized roof
sheets.

Another question asked when these cars were first and last used. The
first use was in late 1950 to early 1951 when 500 36' steel rebuilds
were completed at MoPac's DeSoto, Missouri shops. The earliest 40' cars
were in late 1951.

The rebuilding program continued until 1954 or 1955. Eagle Merchandise
Service box cars continued through the period of this discussion group
(1960) and a little beyond.

Regarding accurate model paint colors for the Eagle Merchandise Service
box cars, there is Badger Modelflex Eagle blue and gray (#169, #171).
More recently Eagle gray, blue, and yellow are now offered by Tru-Color
Paint (TCP-121, 122, 123).

In addition to my article in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol. 14 on
MoPac's steel rebuild box cars, an article by Bill Herbert was
published in the Summer 2012 edition of The Eagle (www.mopac.org) on
modeling 40' MP steel rebuilds using Sunshine kits (XM general service
box cars in freight car red). Stay tuned for the new release (very
soon) for another of Bill's modeling articles along with prototype
photos of 40' Eagle Merchandise Service cars using Sunshine kits. Hope
this helps answer your questions.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Charles Hostetler wrote:
"This is just my personal opinion - not expert in any way, but to me
these fancy multicolor schemes suggest some sort of special LCL or
merchandise service, and they seem sort of out of place with their
box car red compatriots."

...WHICH WAS THE WHOLE POINT! While not all of these colorful cars were specifically equipped for LCL service (the vast majority of LCL moved in ordinary boxcars), they were advertising various LCL or other expedited service, and the fancy schemes were meant to be eyecatching (and nowhere near as common as modelers believe).


Ben Hom

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gi_combat" <mike@...> wrote:

I'm really interested in this car mostly because Box Car Red is putting
me to sleep.
Thanks in advance for any and all help!
Best,Mike DeSensiPittsburgh, PA

Mike,

In addition to Ben's comments on the technical accuracy of these models, I'd suggest Volume 14 of the Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, the first article by Ed Hawkins which is still available from the publisher:

http://www.rpcycpub.com/v14.html

On pages 36 and 37 there are 4 color photos, and three of them are in the Eagle Merchandise scheme. I'd guess that two of them have gray ends and one has blue ends. I'd also guess that one of them (MP46894) has a grey running board and another (MP16267) has a non-gray running board.


This is just my personal opinion - not expert in any way, but to me these fancy multicolor schemes suggest some sort of special LCL or merchandise service, and they seem sort of out of place with their box car red compatriots. If I wanted to break up a sea of box car red I might consider a solid green (e.g. TP&W) or yellow (e.g. MWR) scheme as a change of pace. And there's a lot you can do with shades of red and weathering. I've posted a photo here:

http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/09/too-much-box-car-red.html

that has 7 box cars, all in red and no two alike, and one in green. This is sort of the look I'm trying to achieve, but I'm modeling main line freight in October of 1957 and everyone's mileage will vary. And anyway that MP scheme is pretty cool :)

Regards,

Charles Hostetler

I had always assumed that the poling cars were gone from the PRR by WWII only to find photos of them in use, in yards such as Enola, well into the 1950s!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
________________________________________
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of soolinehistory [destorzek@mchsi.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2012 9:27 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Poling Pockets

From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...>

In an effort to deal with at least one of these, the PRR as well as several others including the Reading, actually created "poling cars", with poles hinged to the car sideframe.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Scott H. Haycock " <shhaycock@...> wrote:

I seem to recall another dangerous practice where cars on adjacent tracks were 'towed' using chains. Can anyone comment on this?
Scott Haycock

The poling cars Bruce speaks of were built for use in specially designed yards that had a second track parallel to the ladder on which to run them. In the days of link and pin couplers, there was no good way to cut a car off on the fly... kicking cars as we know it couldn't be easily done. The poling yard was an attempt to increase yard throughput by allowing the switchman to make the cuts in a standing string of cars, the switch engine would with the poling car would run along next to them and deliver the cuts to the proper tracks. When the use of knuckle couplers became universal, there was really no advantage to the poling yard, and they were phased out.

The chains and push poles carried on the local freight locomotives had a different purpose. The were occasionally used to pull a car out of a facing point spur to save the time of a run-around move, but most often used to clear up the mess left when a drop went bad and the car failed to roll clear, thus trapping the locomotive. Even after push poles were no longer provided the need remained, which is why one occasionally sees a crew poling with a makeshift pole.

Most railroads had in their safety rules a prohibition against using anything but an "approved" pole for poling. These were straight grained hardwood, fitted with a steel band around each end to prevent splitting. W@hen the railroad removed the approved poles from the locomotives, there was no longer any way to pole a car without violating the carriers rules.

If the cable on a car puller can be considered a chain, the the practice of chaining cars continues to this day.

Dennis



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