Date   

Re: Partly About Tangent Underframes, but More about weathering the deck

Jack Burgess
 

<Good Evening,
<
<I've posted a few shots of the Tangent underframes because my models
<just arrived, I was curious about the thread, and I wanted to try some
<close-up photography. Those interested can see the results here, and
<perhaps this will help some folks make their own judgments...
<
<http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/12/tangent-underframes.html
<
<
<I'm really interested in weathering the deck. My weathering efforts to
<date have mostly been on replacement level models, and I'm a bit daunted
<by the thought of not doing justice to the model. So far I've been
<working with acrylic washes and trying to gain experience and control.
<I've also spent some time looking at photos of flat car decks. These
<decks would only be a little over a year old in October 1957, so I want
<something a bit subtle.
<
<I am thinking of a very light shading with a variety of prisma color
<pencils before an acrylic wash. I'd appreciate any words of
<encouragement or suggestions.
<
<Regards,
<
<Charles Hostetler

Charles...

Stan Rydarowicz had a good article on painting styrene wooded freight car
floors in the February 2006 issue of RMC...


Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


The Burlington Waycar Drawing Book Previews Up

qmp211
 

Hi,

For those of you waiting for the The Burlington Waycar Drawing Book Previews to
be posted on our website, they're up.

http://theburlingtonwaycars.com/The_Burlington_Waycar_Drawing_Book_Preview.html

Please contact me off list. Thank you.

Regards,
Randy Danniel

www.TheBurlingtonWaycars.com
www.MilePost206.com
www.CBQCalendar.com

Phone: 319-754-1408

Mile Post 206 Publishing, Inc
Post Office Box 543
West Burlington, Iowa 52655-0543


Partly About Tangent Underframes, but More about weathering the deck

Charles Hostetler <cesicjh@...>
 

Good Evening,

I've posted a few shots of the Tangent underframes because my models just arrived, I was curious about the thread, and I wanted to try some close-up photography. Those interested can see the results here, and perhaps this will help some folks make their own judgments...

http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2012/12/tangent-underframes.html


I'm really interested in weathering the deck. My weathering efforts to date have mostly been on replacement level models, and I'm a bit daunted by the thought of not doing justice to the model. So far I've been working with acrylic washes and trying to gain experience and control. I've also spent some time looking at photos of flat car decks. These decks would only be a little over a year old in October 1957, so I want something a bit subtle.

I am thinking of a very light shading with a variety of prisma color pencils before an acrylic wash. I'd appreciate any words of encouragement or suggestions.

Regards,

Charles Hostetler


Hemp Carpet and Rope

np328
 

Yes that title is not a typo.

I have a question that I am looking for straightforward answers.

On the stretch of railroad I would like to model are two industries in different towns. I would believe these are owned by the same company. The product is hemp carpets, as the buildings are plainly listed as such.

Photos and written data providing this information are dated to the late 1920's and 1940's respectively.

I know in 1970, the Controlled Substance Act outlawed hemp and growing hemp in the US.

The date of my modeling is fall of 1953. I would like to get the date down tighter however I have to do further research regarding crop harvesting and weather reports of that time frame. (OK, three questions if you can provide research sources for that last sentence.)

My main question is with hemp and hemp carpets - Was it a going if marginal concern in 1953, or an already collapsed industry?

I have talked with former Navy personnel who spoke highly of hemp rope on Navy ships and am aware of the hemp rope industry.

I guess I'll add a fourth question and ask: When did (the commercial use of) hemp rope fall out of favor.

Thank you - Jim Dick - St. Paul


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 12/3/2012 1:18 PM, pullmanboss wrote:
but the cast bottom tank sector is represented by etched brass, and the relief is very shallow
This car had a very complex casting. I believe one of the CBCs had
pictures and/or drawings. A piece of etched brass wouldn't do. I
thought about a resin master once but gave up. Maybe one of the new
resin machines with a 3D drawing would do it.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Drilling template for grab irons on Accurail and Mantua/Tyco gons?

Rich C
 

Good idea Steve. I know I used that method years back, don't know why I forgot about it. I have used dividers that lock. I adjust them to my HO ruler or car side and simply press the sharp ends into the plastic/resin. Of course I use a square to keep things aligned.
 
Rich Christie

--- On Sun, 12/2/12, Steve Sandifer <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:


From: Steve Sandifer <steve.sandifer@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Drilling template for grab irons on Accurail and Mantua/Tyco gons?
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, December 2, 2012, 9:51 PM



 



I have some dial calipers (Harbor Freight). I set the opening to match the centerline of the grabs to be installed. Then I use the thumb screw to tighten the caliper down so it won't move. One side of the caliper is for measuring the outside dimension of something, the other side for the inside dimension, and the inside anvils are very sharp. I simply line them up where I think the grabs should go and push them into the plastic, or in some cases scratch a line. That method works great for me.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven D Johnson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 3:34 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Drilling template for grab irons on Accurail and Mantua/Tyco gons?

James' post prompted me to ask if there is a commercially-available drilling
template for installing the five side grab irons on Accurail and
Mantua/Tyco gons, after shaving off the cast-on ones.

Thanks,

Steve Johnson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Pierre
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 1:07 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kadee bracket grab irons

James,
I will have one commercially available soon. Probably by the new year.
Price TBA.
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "James"
<jkcummings@...> wrote:

Has anyone yet etched a drilling template for installing Kadee bracket
grabirons ?
Regards, James Cummings
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Tangent Scale Models
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Tangent essentially has ignored the underframes of its gondola models, so my guess
is that the flat car will be nearly the same.
On our 2 gondolas and our new GSC 60' flatcar, we have painstakingly modeled the underframe details in order to replicate the prototype as accurately as possible. Trust me when I say I have climbed underneath the prototype cars and photographed and measured them to get them right. Additionally I have worked with members of this list to get these and other essential details right as well.

In terms of PLASTIC model car design, let's assume that coming close to NMRA weight is important (which is another can of worms but something that a majority of the market demands). As a modeler just like you and others here, I don't want the interior of my gondola decks to ride high. So that leaves the underframe as the only place to squirrel weight, just like if you are building a resin gondola model. The flatcar - from a model design perspective - has the same issue... under the deck is the only place to add weight.

In the case of all three models, Tangent has added weight in the underframe structure of the car. Regardless of that, we still include all brake detail in the correct places and the support structure accurately placed and replicated as well. During the design process we have thought long and hard about how to add the necessary weight without impacting prototypical accuracy. This means that the weight structure underneath the car hangs within the frame support structure, but we still build an accurate support structure around the weight. And most importantly, we have designed it so that you only know it is "wrong" if the car is lifted off the track.

Again, the goal is for Tangent Scale Models to come "layout ready" and therefore the weight needs to go in the best compromise place. In your other message you said you accept that compromises are made in all models," so I am unsure why you made your statement above. Tangent, just like the other guys, had to compromise to bring the models to 5 ounces!

Finally, comparing the IRC 2 bay hopper to the Tangent model is unfair for 2 reasons. First, the IRC model is not available yet. But more importantly, at less than 35 feet it requires far less weight to meet NMRA specs than the 3 Tangent products at 52-6 and 60'. When you hold a TSM flatcar, you will smile at how substantive it feels. At least, that is the feedback I have been getting from our customers.

Jon is correct - a photo of the model underframe is missing from the website. I will correct that soon. We have included the "open" support structure underneath the car just like a prototypical GSC frame.

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Michael Gross wrote:
Thank you for the timely information concerning the Tangent GSC flat car. Tangent's website mentions they have the ATSF version in the original 1956 paint scheme, while you say the cars were built in Topeka in 4-54. I appreciate the clarification, as 1954 is the year I model.
Actually, Richard's book says that the Class Ft-7 cars were built in the Topeka Shops in 4-56. Not sure why he now says 4-54.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Tangent Scale Models
 

--- In STMFC@..., "atsfnut" <michaelEGross@...> wrote:

Richard,

Thank you for the timely information concerning the Tangent GSC flat car. Tangent's website mentions they have the ATSF version in the original 1956 paint scheme, while you say the cars were built in Topeka in 4-54. I appreciate the clarification, as 1954 is the year I model.

Again, my thanks!

Michael Gross
Michael,

Please see my previous post, where I included a prototype photo (click on it to enlarge). You will see 4-56 as the build stencil.

Quicklink here: http://tangentscalemodels.com/gsc60flatprototype.aspx

David Lehlbach
Tangent Scale Models


Re: Possible new project (UNCLASSIFIED)

SamClarke
 

Elden,

I can't really say we have plans but we have the desire to do the earlier 40 foot PS-1s along with the 8 foot door 50' PS-1s and perhaps these will become plans then reality.

Unlike most other model railroad manufacturers our primary products are couplers and our freight car line is one of our secondary product lines.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden SAW" <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Sam;

Do you have any plans to do the early PS-1?

Elden Gatwood


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Sam
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 2:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Possible new project



Hello Group,

There's a bit of information that hasn't been mentioned yet about the riveted 40" PS-1 ends. We have found that cars built at the Michigan City Plant did not have rivets on the ribs and the cars built at the Bessemer, Alabama Plant had the rivets. After we introduced our 40 foot PS-1 we did not do any cars built in Bessemer, AL until we made an end with the proper rivet pattern. Cars built prior to 1954 have riveted seam lines and afterward the seam is welded.

Hope this helps and if any body finds different or additional information we'd sure appreciate knowing.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "tedander2000" <tedander@> wrote:









FYI, at the IRM Pullman Library we are in the process of completing the filing by lot number of the P-S freight cars from late 5800's toward end of production over the next two months, currently at lot 8700. Occasionally there may be a photo, general drawing, and certainly a specification. Give a reply if you know what you are looking for to complete your model, and the lot number or numbers (more means a better chance of finding the info). Note that we are talking about a baggage car filled with archived cartons by lot number, so please be specific. Our charges are designed to be reasonable yet cover the cost of restoration, all volunteer assistance. Earlier lots back to the teens, including Haskell & Barker and Standard Steel Car, are in separate, filed collections of extensive linen drawings, licensed copies available. Perhaps the information you seek might be there in one of the collections. Check also ericsrailcarhistory for the P-S freight car listings on CD.
Ted Anderson, IRM Pullman Library curator

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Benjamin Hom <b.hom@> wrote:

Mark Stamm asked:
"What spread sheet are you referring to?"

Pullman Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List, compiled by Ed Hawkins (MS Excel file):
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html


Ben Hom




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Tim O'Connor
 

Elden

I'm not being harsh at all... I accept that compromises are made in all models. The
Proto 2000 gondolas, the Eastern Car Works gondolas, the Tangent gondolas -- they
all basically fake the underframes compared to the real thing. I've acquired many of
the Tangent gondolas and a @#$load of the P2k gons. But calling a thing what it is
isn't harsh -- It is what it is, or isn't, in this case. Many have said you can't build a
properly weighted 2 bay open hopper either, but Intermountain has managed from
what has been reported on the new AMC hoppers.

Tim O'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elden SAW Gatwood" <elden.j.gatwood@...>

I think the words "essentially has ignored" are rather harsh ... [snip] ...


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Tom Madden
 

Jon Miller wrote:

Some of the GSC casting were really neat from the model visual
point. I especially like that ATSF tank car (that Richard says will be
done when hell freezes over) but then I can always hope (grin)! Doing a
search it appears that DP actually did one TK-L?, is that correct.
Yes. I was able to pick up a company service version (water car) on the secondary market. Nice model, but the cast bottom tank sector is represented by etched brass, and the relief is very shallow.

Tom Madden


Re: ATSF Tk-L Tank Car

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 3, 2012, at 11:51 AM, Jon Miller wrote:

On 12/3/2012 11:13 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:
The only attempt to properly model the GSC
cast steel body
Some of the GSC casting were really neat from the model visual
point. I especially like that ATSF tank car (that Richard says will be
done when hell freezes over) but then I can always hope (grin)!
Doing a
search it appears that DP actually did one TK-L?, is that correct.
Yes, and I have one. Frankly it wasn't a very good model, especially
for an expensive brass import, but I got one anyway as I could spend
the rest of my life trying to scratchbuild one and the chances of
getting a plastic or resin model are no better than they ever were,
I.e., perilously close to zero.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Tim O'Connor
 

This probably refers to the opening in the side for the brake release rod. I think
it was only present on one side but I'm not positive.

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian carlson" <prrk41361@...>

Guys, the tangent website said oval cutouts as appropriate so maybe not all prototypes had them.
Brian Carlson


Re: Possible new project

Clark Propst
 

Thanks Sam, I was planning on contacting you soon.
Clark Propst

--- In STMFC@..., "Sam" <mail@...> wrote:

Hello Group,

There's a bit of information that hasn't been mentioned yet about the riveted 40" PS-1 ends. We have found that cars built at the Michigan City Plant did not have rivets on the ribs and the cars built at the Bessemer, Alabama Plant had the rivets. After we introduced our 40 foot PS-1 we did not do any cars built in Bessemer, AL until we made an end with the proper rivet pattern. Cars built prior to 1954 have riveted seam lines and afterward the seam is welded.

Hope this helps and if any body finds different or additional information we'd sure appreciate knowing.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 12/3/2012 11:13 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:
The only attempt to properly model the GSC
cast steel body
Some of the GSC casting were really neat from the model visual
point. I especially like that ATSF tank car (that Richard says will be
done when hell freezes over) but then I can always hope (grin)! Doing a
search it appears that DP actually did one TK-L?, is that correct.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Possible new project (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Sam;

Do you have any plans to do the early PS-1?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Sam
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 2:33 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Possible new project



Hello Group,

There's a bit of information that hasn't been mentioned yet about the riveted 40" PS-1 ends. We have found that cars built at the Michigan City Plant did not have rivets on the ribs and the cars built at the Bessemer, Alabama Plant had the rivets. After we introduced our 40 foot PS-1 we did not do any cars built in Bessemer, AL until we made an end with the proper rivet pattern. Cars built prior to 1954 have riveted seam lines and afterward the seam is welded.

Hope this helps and if any body finds different or additional information we'd sure appreciate knowing.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "tedander2000" <tedander@...> wrote:









FYI, at the IRM Pullman Library we are in the process of completing the filing by lot number of the P-S freight cars from late 5800's toward end of production over the next two months, currently at lot 8700. Occasionally there may be a photo, general drawing, and certainly a specification. Give a reply if you know what you are looking for to complete your model, and the lot number or numbers (more means a better chance of finding the info). Note that we are talking about a baggage car filled with archived cartons by lot number, so please be specific. Our charges are designed to be reasonable yet cover the cost of restoration, all volunteer assistance. Earlier lots back to the teens, including Haskell & Barker and Standard Steel Car, are in separate, filed collections of extensive linen drawings, licensed copies available. Perhaps the information you seek might be there in one of the collections. Check also ericsrailcarhistory for the P-S freight car listings on CD.
Ted Anderson, IRM Pullman Library curator

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Benjamin Hom <b.hom@> wrote:

Mark Stamm asked:
"What spread sheet are you referring to?"

Pullman Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List, compiled by Ed Hawkins (MS Excel file):
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html


Ben Hom




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

The oval hole comment refers to the small oval hole in the sideframe that allowed access to brake eqpt.

The other oval holes are those that GSC crated in the molds to create holes in those locations that did not require structural material, in the interests of lightening the u/f. Those ovals are quite prominent on some GSC u/f as viewed from below, and not so noticeable when viewed from the side.

I think the words "essentially has ignored" are rather harsh in light of the trade-offs made between on-the-track accuracy, and on-the-track performance. Sure, if one looks for prototype depth in the u/f, it is not there, due to the need for space for weight. This is always a compromise modelers doing scratchbuilding and resin kit building are wrestling with. I think Tangent did a nice balance between upside-down accuracy and need for weight. The new flats look pretty good to me, and they will stay on the track.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Brian carlson
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 2:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model



Guys, the tangent website said oval cutouts as appropriate so maybe not all prototypes had them.
Brian Carlson
On Dec 3, 2012, at 2:13 PM, timboconnor@... <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> wrote:

Jon

Tangent essentially has ignored the underframes of its gondola models, so my guess
is that the flat car will be nearly the same. The only attempt to properly model the GSC
cast steel body (other than Sunshine) was Overland's GSC bulkhead flats. On the other
hand Overland omitted the double taper on the sides which was present on all of the
early (1950's) GSC flat cars.

Tim O'

P.S. I was surprised by the Tangent announcement since I thought that another vendor
was working on GSC flats.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@... <mailto:atsf%40izap.com> >

I know that Tangent works very hard to get accurate models. That
said, unless I missed it, there were no shots of the underside of the flat?

Jon Miller

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Possible new project

SamClarke
 

Hello Group,

There's a bit of information that hasn't been mentioned yet about the riveted 40" PS-1 ends. We have found that cars built at the Michigan City Plant did not have rivets on the ribs and the cars built at the Bessemer, Alabama Plant had the rivets. After we introduced our 40 foot PS-1 we did not do any cars built in Bessemer, AL until we made an end with the proper rivet pattern. Cars built prior to 1954 have riveted seam lines and afterward the seam is welded.

Hope this helps and if any body finds different or additional information we'd sure appreciate knowing.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

--- In STMFC@..., "tedander2000" <tedander@...> wrote:









FYI, at the IRM Pullman Library we are in the process of completing the filing by lot number of the P-S freight cars from late 5800's toward end of production over the next two months, currently at lot 8700. Occasionally there may be a photo, general drawing, and certainly a specification. Give a reply if you know what you are looking for to complete your model, and the lot number or numbers (more means a better chance of finding the info). Note that we are talking about a baggage car filled with archived cartons by lot number, so please be specific. Our charges are designed to be reasonable yet cover the cost of restoration, all volunteer assistance. Earlier lots back to the teens, including Haskell & Barker and Standard Steel Car, are in separate, filed collections of extensive linen drawings, licensed copies available. Perhaps the information you seek might be there in one of the collections. Check also ericsrailcarhistory for the P-S freight car listings on CD.
Ted Anderson, IRM Pullman Library curator

--- In STMFC@..., Benjamin Hom <b.hom@> wrote:

Mark Stamm asked:
"What spread sheet are you referring to?"

Pullman Standard PS-1 40' Box Car List, compiled by Ed Hawkins (MS Excel file):
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/protofrtcarsmain.html


Ben Hom


Re: Tangent ATSF 60' GSC Flat Car Model

Brian Carlson
 

Guys, the tangent website said oval cutouts as appropriate so maybe not all prototypes had them.
Brian Carlson
On Dec 3, 2012, at 2:13 PM, timboconnor@... wrote:

Jon

Tangent essentially has ignored the underframes of its gondola models, so my guess
is that the flat car will be nearly the same. The only attempt to properly model the GSC
cast steel body (other than Sunshine) was Overland's GSC bulkhead flats. On the other
hand Overland omitted the double taper on the sides which was present on all of the
early (1950's) GSC flat cars.

Tim O'

P.S. I was surprised by the Tangent announcement since I thought that another vendor
was working on GSC flats.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@...>

I know that Tangent works very hard to get accurate models. That
said, unless I missed it, there were no shots of the underside of the flat?

Jon Miller

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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