Date   

MIssing instructions

roblmclear <rob.mclear3@...>
 

Hi to all

I recently purchased a Sunshine UP A-50-16 Autocar kit on e-bay, and whilst the kit appears complete, and all the major parts are there and even if there are some missing minor ones I can deal with that, the intructions are missing and are what I need to make sure that I have all the bits. I have obtained the information sheet from a website but the instructions are still not available. If anyone has a set out there can they assist me off list please.

Rob McLear
Australia


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

WaltGCox@...
 

It sure will be / is. Thank you for making this available Richard.
Walt

In a message dated 12/18/2012 3:41:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
wakeene@... writes:

Tony,

Thanks. That worked.

This is one fantastic bit of info. It will be / is already quite useful.

Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

brianleppert@att.net
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Actually it was more than that -- the "plank" spanned the space between the sideframes, and ran underneath
the bolster. No one has ever modeled this in an HO truck (commercially) but it has been done in O scale (P:48)

Tim O'Connor

Actually, there IS an HO truck with that detail spanning the side frames. It's the arch bar truck done for the Gould ore car, tooled about 30 years ago. Now Tichy part #3002.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

davesnyder59
 

OK, maybe I need to take another look at your handout. Apparently I misconstrued Mr. O'Connors statement about there is no planked truck produced in HO scale. So I suppose I need to be looking for the "U" section below the springs on the sideframe face despite there not being an actual plank. And I guess I need to develop a more discriminating eye in my modeling. Bear with me, I'm trying to understand this.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Dec 18, 2012, at 3:45 PM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Thank you Mr. Hendrickson. So I gather that the plankless truck
would be appearing with greater frequency from the mid 30's on.

Yes. Most (though not all) new freight cars were delivered with self-
aligning spring-plankless trucks by the late 1940s
And in HO scale would be virtually indistinguishable from planked
trucks.

Um, well, I don't agree there, though I suppose it depends on what
you mean by "indistingushable." I can certainly tell the difference,
both when the car is on the workbench and when it's on the track, and
that's why I prepared that web document. If I'm going to the trouble
to model free-standing ladders and grabs and make sure my model has
the correct type of steel running board, for example, then I think
it's worth making an effort to model the same trucks that were on the
prototype. YMMV, of course.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 18, 2012, at 3:45 PM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Thank you Mr. Hendrickson. So I gather that the plankless truck
would be appearing with greater frequency from the mid 30's on.
Yes. Most (though not all) new freight cars were delivered with self-
aligning spring-plankless trucks by the late 1940s
And in HO scale would be virtually indistinguishable from planked
trucks.
Um, well, I don't agree there, though I suppose it depends on what
you mean by "indistingushable." I can certainly tell the difference,
both when the car is on the workbench and when it's on the track, and
that's why I prepared that web document. If I'm going to the trouble
to model free-standing ladders and grabs and make sure my model has
the correct type of steel running board, for example, then I think
it's worth making an effort to model the same trucks that were on the
prototype. YMMV, of course.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

davesnyder59
 

Thank you Mr. Hendrickson. So I gather that the plankless truck would be appearing with greater frequency from the mid 30's on. And in HO scale would be virtually indistinguishable from planked trucks. Thank you as well for page 14 link of your handout (which I believe is the same as you provided a week or so ago)that partially began my quest to learn more. Although Mr. Leppert contributed to it as well.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 AM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks
and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs
plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between
them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler,
Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar
I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like
"Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.


Dave, the spring plank was originally, literally, a wood plank,
replaced in the 20th century (as Bruce Smith posted) with a shallow
steel channel with each end fitting between the springs and the side
frames. On prototype trucks, it extended all the way across the car
( as noted by Tim O'Connor). Between them, the spring plank and
bolster kept the truck more or less in alignment. On trucks with
spring planks, the end of the plank was just visible below the
springs at the bottom of the side frames. In the early 1930s, a
consortium of truck manufacturers developed self-aligning spring-
plankless trucks in which the joints between the bolsters and
sideframes were interlocking and precision-machined. Since those
joints kept the truck in alignment, it was possible to eliminate the
spring plank and reduce the unsprung weight of the truck.

Next month I'll be offering a clinic on plain journal trucks at
Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach which includes many illustrations of
prototype trucks, and the 14 page "handout" for that clinic is on a
web site which anyone can access. It includes images of the various
HO scale trucks currently on the market and identifies the prototype
trucks they represent, and it should help to overcome your
confusion. The web address is: https://docs.google.com/file/d/
0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Web Address for Truck Clinic "Handout"

Richard Hendrickson
 

To those who have had difficulty opening this file, I can only say
that I've never had a problem. There is one little - and rather
obvious - quirk, however. What opens first is a file named
HERE-Google Docs. If you click on that, it takes you immediately to
the truck document.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Tony,

Thanks. That worked.

This is one fantastic bit of info. It will be / is already quite useful.

Happy Modeling,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Dec 18, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Bill Keene wrote:
I have tried several times to access your referenced document without success. Attempts have included clicking on and also cut and paste, both without success. Do you have any suggestions to aid in accessing this document?
Try pasting just this much address into Google: docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill Keene wrote:
I have tried several times to access your referenced document without success. Attempts have included clicking on and also cut and paste, both without success. Do you have any suggestions to aid in accessing this document?
Try pasting just this much address into Google: docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Steve SANDIFER
 

I got it and it is a wonderful addition to the library - Thank you Richard, your usual excellence.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Keene" <wakeene@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Planked vs plankless trucks.


Hello Richard,

I have tried several times to access your referenced document without success. Attempts have included clicking on and also cut and paste, both without success. Do you have any suggestions to aid in accessing this document?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Dec 18, 2012, at 12:04 PM, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 AM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks
and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs
plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between
them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler,
Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar
I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like
"Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.
Dave, the spring plank was originally, literally, a wood plank,
replaced in the 20th century (as Bruce Smith posted) with a shallow
steel channel with each end fitting between the springs and the side
frames. On prototype trucks, it extended all the way across the car
( as noted by Tim O'Connor). Between them, the spring plank and
bolster kept the truck more or less in alignment. On trucks with
spring planks, the end of the plank was just visible below the
springs at the bottom of the side frames. In the early 1930s, a
consortium of truck manufacturers developed self-aligning spring-
plankless trucks in which the joints between the bolsters and
sideframes were interlocking and precision-machined. Since those
joints kept the truck in alignment, it was possible to eliminate the
spring plank and reduce the unsprung weight of the truck.

Next month I'll be offering a clinic on plain journal trucks at
Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach which includes many illustrations of
prototype trucks, and the 14 page "handout" for that clinic is on a
web site which anyone can access. It includes images of the various
HO scale trucks currently on the market and identifies the prototype
trucks they represent, and it should help to overcome your
confusion. The web address is: https://docs.google.com/file/d/
0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Richard Hendrickson







------------------------------------

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Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello Richard,

I have tried several times to access your referenced document without success. Attempts have included clicking on and also cut and paste, both without success. Do you have any suggestions to aid in accessing this document?

Cheers,
Bill Keene
Irvine, CA


On Dec 18, 2012, at 12:04 PM, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 AM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks
and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs
plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between
them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler,
Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar
I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like
"Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.
Dave, the spring plank was originally, literally, a wood plank,
replaced in the 20th century (as Bruce Smith posted) with a shallow
steel channel with each end fitting between the springs and the side
frames. On prototype trucks, it extended all the way across the car
( as noted by Tim O'Connor). Between them, the spring plank and
bolster kept the truck more or less in alignment. On trucks with
spring planks, the end of the plank was just visible below the
springs at the bottom of the side frames. In the early 1930s, a
consortium of truck manufacturers developed self-aligning spring-
plankless trucks in which the joints between the bolsters and
sideframes were interlocking and precision-machined. Since those
joints kept the truck in alignment, it was possible to eliminate the
spring plank and reduce the unsprung weight of the truck.

Next month I'll be offering a clinic on plain journal trucks at
Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach which includes many illustrations of
prototype trucks, and the 14 page "handout" for that clinic is on a
web site which anyone can access. It includes images of the various
HO scale trucks currently on the market and identifies the prototype
trucks they represent, and it should help to overcome your
confusion. The web address is: https://docs.google.com/file/d/
0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Richard Hendrickson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 AM, davesnyder59 wrote:
Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks
and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs
plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between
them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler,
Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar
I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like
"Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.
Dave, the spring plank was originally, literally, a wood plank,
replaced in the 20th century (as Bruce Smith posted) with a shallow
steel channel with each end fitting between the springs and the side
frames. On prototype trucks, it extended all the way across the car
( as noted by Tim O'Connor). Between them, the spring plank and
bolster kept the truck more or less in alignment. On trucks with
spring planks, the end of the plank was just visible below the
springs at the bottom of the side frames. In the early 1930s, a
consortium of truck manufacturers developed self-aligning spring-
plankless trucks in which the joints between the bolsters and
sideframes were interlocking and precision-machined. Since those
joints kept the truck in alignment, it was possible to eliminate the
spring plank and reduce the unsprung weight of the truck.

Next month I'll be offering a clinic on plain journal trucks at
Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach which includes many illustrations of
prototype trucks, and the 14 page "handout" for that clinic is on a
web site which anyone can access. It includes images of the various
HO scale trucks currently on the market and identifies the prototype
trucks they represent, and it should help to overcome your
confusion. The web address is: https://docs.google.com/file/d/
0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill Daniels wrote:
The strangest thing is that after the Barber-Bettendorf merger in 1942, there was no such thing as a "Bettendorf" truck. Kinda like "friction" bearings.
Right, and this is a point Richard Hendrickson has been making for years. But there IS one sense in which the term "Bettendorf" remained appropriate -- they were the originators of the one-piece cast steel sideframe, and in that sense (and only in that sense), all such trucks are indeed "Bettendorf" trucks, just as all prime movers built to a particular principle are "diesel" engines. But of course if the term "Bettendorf" is used that way, it becomes meaningless to describe any specific truck, let alone to differentiate among trucks. On balance, we are better off without it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: pros and cons of brass bearings?

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Rob Kirkham" wrote:

Thanks for this note Alan.

I note your observation that rolling resistance is greatly reduced with
pinpoints and brass bearings has the appearance of running contrary to
Denny's observation about the coefficient of friction of brass bearings and
metal wheel-sets. Not trying to get anyone worked up, but I am wanting to
understand this well.

Rob,

I think if you re-read Doc's post, you will see he was commenting on brass CYLINDRICAL bearing inserts, since that is the only style of brass inserts we commonly see on this side of the pond. Fitting any truck that already has cone shaped bearings for needle point axles with cylindrical bearings of any material is a step backwards, and I think is the basis for his comments.

The reason the coefficient of friction is still a factor is model trucks are not true needle point bearings. First off, neither the cones or axle ends are sufficiently sharp, Secondly the axle length typically doesn't perfectly match the distance between the bearing cones, and third, the 1 deg. of clearance the NMRA specifies between the axle end and cone bearing typically gets used up accommodating misalignment in the truck. So, what we really end up with is a line of contact, rather than a point, at least in some of the bearings, that constantly shifts from one bearing to the other as the truck tries to accommodate itself to the track.

Dennis


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Tim O'Connor
 

Actually it was more than that -- the "plank" spanned the space between the sideframes, and ran underneath
the bolster. No one has ever modeled this in an HO truck (commercially) but it has been done in O scale (P:48)

Tim O'Connor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@...>
To: "<STMFC@...>" <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 2:32:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Planked vs plankless trucks.

Dave,

The spring plank was a device that held the base of the springs. It was a "U" section something like |____| in the center of the truck. Spring plankless trucks do not have one.
See http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/lip/lip23399.jpg for and Andrews truck with a spring plank.


Regards

Bruce


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

The spring plank was a device that held the base of the springs. It was a "U" section something like |____| in the center of the truck. Spring plankless trucks do not have one.
See http://web4.hobbylinc.com/gr/lip/lip23399.jpg for and Andrews truck with a spring plank.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Dec 18, 2012, at 1:04 PM, davesnyder59 wrote:

Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler, Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like "Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: NWX and WRX

Mark Mathu
 

In STMFC@..., Bill Welch wrote:
I have a vague recollection reading somewhere that North Western
Refrigerator Line and Western Refrigerator Line were linked
operationally and the addresses for billing for both are the same
231 S. La Salle St. in Chicago. They also shared for a time at
least the very same reefer gray paint scheme and used cars
designed by AC&F.
This arrangement appears the same sort collaborative and
cooperative arrangement the FGE/WFE/BRE System. Is there anyone out
there can anymore about the two companies and how their combined
operations played out. For example, were their cars pooled?


Refer to this 1949 news article-- North American Car Corp. (parent of NWX) owned a 60% stake in the Western Refrigerator Line (WRX) at the time.

Car Corp. Net Dips
Milwaukee Journal - Mar 22, 1949
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sSIaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-iMEAAAAIBAJ&dq=western-refrigerator-line&pg=4358%2C726984

I'm not aware of their assets being pooled. The WRX's repair facility was in Green Bay, and although I've seen pictures of wood WRX reefers lines up on the tracks, I've never seen NWX reefers there.

____
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.


Re: Planked vs plankless trucks.

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

The strangest thing is that after the Barber-Bettendorf merger in 1942, there was no such thing as a "Bettendorf" truck. Kinda like "friction" bearings.


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: davesnyder59 <davesnyder59@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 11:04 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Planked vs plankless trucks.


 
Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler, Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like "Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.


Planked vs plankless trucks.

davesnyder59
 

Group, I have been trying to get my head around freight car trucks and seem to be as lost as ever. What is meant by planked vs plankless trucks and how would you visually discriminate between them. Other than the stand out trucks like Vulcans, Chrysler, Archbar, National B-1's, and a few others, they all are so similar I can't readily identify one from another. They all look like "Bettendorfs" to me. TIA.

Dave Snyder
Louisville, Ky.


Re: pros and cons of brass bearings?

Robert kirkham
 

Thanks for this note Alan.

I note your observation that rolling resistance is greatly reduced with pinpoints and brass bearings has the appearance of running contrary to Denny's observation about the coefficient of friction of brass bearings and metal wheel-sets. Not trying to get anyone worked up, but I am wanting to understand this well. It seems to me a pin-point contact between any bearing material and axle will have considerably lower friction than a cylindrical bearing - and if that was the comparison you were making, I follow. But it isn't immediately obvious to me that the coefficient of friction applicable at a pin point bearing is meaningfully affected by the materials because it is a pint point. Is there some data out there that shows this is not so?

Rob Kirkham
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Monk Alan" <Alan.Monk@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 3:18 AM
To: <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: pros and cons of brass bearings?

Hi Rob,

Y'know... I'm not entirely sure why we use them either!

Okay, on etched brass kits, they do provide a better bearing surface than just a hole in thin etched brass sheet (on our 4-wheel wagon underframes), but we also use them on plastic-chassis'ed kits, though this is a more recent thing - I certainly recall plastic kits without them, back when I started (30+ years ago).

And most of our RTR rolling stock just has the pin-points running in the plastic underframe or trucks/bogies without bearings.

It could be a wear thing, though my oldest UK stock running on pinpoints in its plastic chassis show little obvious signs of wear

Most brass bearings are coned internally to suit a 'standard' pin-point axle, externally they are 'top-hat' or 'waisted' style - the top hat version is cylindrical, approx 2mm diameter and 2-3mm long. They get inset into a 2mm dia hole drilled or moulded into the axlebox. The waisted ones have a much smaller, stepped exterior to allow fitting where there isn't as much 'meat' to drill or mould into.

There are some that are parallel bearings, bored 1mm through to take a 1mm axle (non-pinpoint). More prototypical, but they haven't really taken off.

But... rolling resistance is greatly reduced with pinpoints and brass bearings, so our locos can haul more/we don't have to load our locos (and motors) with so much lead.

And don't forget that we're not as obsessed about car weight as you guys seem to be - I run my finescale UK stock (built to 'EM' standards, though I have dabbled in 'P4' exact scale, our equivalent to P87) weighted to approx 1oz/25g *per axle*, without problems, ultra-fine flanges and all - it's that consistent weight per axle that is the key to good running, I've found. On my O gauge stock, I up that to 2oz per axle.

HTH,
Alan Monk,
London, UK



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