Date   

Re: covered Hoppers

Ken O'Brien
 

The weights, car and hatch dimensions are similar to Lacakawanna covered hoppers purchased from AC&F in 1950-53. And they were cement haulers. F&C has kits for these cars.

Ken

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Cain" <allencain@...> wrote:

I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one) and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long but had
70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for carrying
high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that most, if
not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am NOT a
Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am offering this
for consideration only and I yield to the experts.



Allen Cain





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: covered Hoppers

John
 

Bill:

Yes, I knew that when I was writing my reply. Point is, before the 1960's covered hoppers were almost always used for dense, bulk products such as cement, lime, fertilizers, kaolin, carbon black and locomotive sand (dried).

In fact most boxcars had markings on the inside walls showing how deep different grains or other agricultural products (flour) could be loaded without exceeding the weight limit of the car. Since railroads had so many boxcars (in some cases, over 50% of their freight car fleets) and the need for agricultural use was usually limited to the autumn, there was no big impetus to develop special purpose cars for this service. Instead, you had things like Signode grain doors and hatches in the roofs added to standard box cars.

It was the increase in load limits and the demise in the standard house cars of the late 1960's due to containerization that led to development of special-purpose covered hoppers, although experimentation with such cars started as early as the 1940's at least.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. 


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daniels <billinsf@> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael








Re: covered Hoppers

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

While researching for the CGW Color Guide I was handed a list of covered hopper assignments. The CGW covered hoppers are of the same type and same age as those in Bill Michaels original question.

While the cars in a given series were identical, they were assigned to a specific service AND a specific loading point by car number. The cars would have been loaded at the same point repeatedly and unloaded wherever they were sent. Weathering would eventually become the only clue to the assigned service if there was any clue at all. For those cars painted black and assigned to cement service the weathering pattern should be obvious.

These short, 70-ton capacity, 2-bay covered hoppers were assigned to service hauling the aforementioned cement, fertilizer, lime and meal. The lime weathering might resemble the cement weathering.

The M&StL received its first (and only) grain hoppers in 1958 from Pullman-Standard. Imagine taking your Kato car and stretching it to a 3-bay configuration and you have the M&StL's grain hoppers. These were certainly very small cars by today's standards. The M&StL was rarely an innovator so I imagine some other railroads also had these grain hoppers before the M&StL

In the M&StL's case, cement hoppers were stenciled for cement service and the grain hoppers for grain service but this was for advertising, not to instruct crews doing the switching.

Gene Green


2nd Qtr. 2013 NYCentral Modeler Uploaded on NYCSHS Website

Noel Widdifield <NYCBigFour@...>
 

The latest edition of the NYCentral Modeler has just been uploaded on the NYCSHS website. www.nycshs.org Be sure to check this one out.

NYCSHS member Charlie Crawford's layout models the NYC Adirondack Division of the NYCS. He has vacationed in the Adirondack Mountains for many years starting in 1976 and he loves being there. Since he can't be there all of the time, he created a model railroad to take him there when he is away. Join us as he tells us about his railroad and the interesting things he has included on his layout.

This edition features articles from Alan Bell on "A Busy Day at Albany Station", Charlie Crawford's "NYC's Adirondack Division", another in the series from Ron Parisi on " Manhattan's Greatest Train Yard - NYC's 60th Street Yard", the continuation of "Modeling the NYC in TT-Scale" by Paul Pickard, and the final in series on "Kitbashing Steam Locomotives" by Tom Bailey.

We have included a great set of drawings and modeling instructions on the NYC&HRRR standard stockyards. This in another in the series of professional drawings from the "NYC Engineering Department" done by Mauel Duran-Duran developed from one of our NYCSHS Drawing DVD's. Of course, like his past drawings, Mauel had added considerable detail and precision to the final product. He also gives us a little history about a fairly unknown aspect of NYCS freight operations, livestock transport.

In this issue we offer a new feature for the NYCentral Modeler. For the first time we have two excellent layout drawings of Alan Bell's layout done by recent NYCSHS member and layout drawing artist, Frank Knight. Frank's layout drawings will be a regular offering in future editions.

This is the largest NYCentral Modeler to date with almost 100 pages packed with NYCS modeling information and photos. This is our eighth edition and includes several pages of new products, new book and magazine highlights, and letters to the editor.
Our president, Rich Stoving, in his regular column, asks us, "Who Are You". In it, he talks about how he likes to "Model Railroad" and reminds us of the many ways to enjoy our great hobby of modeling the NYCS.

To enjoy this edition and all of the other seven follow the instructions below and let us know what you think.

Noel Widdifield
Editor, NYCentral Modeler
NYCBigFour@comcast.net


Re: covered Hoppers

Allen Cain <allencain@...>
 

I just checked the January 1954 ORER (do not have an earlier one) and all of
the covered hoppers owned by the Milwaukee Road were 29 ft 3 in long but had
70 Ton capacity. This would support that they were intended for carrying
high density loads such as cement. And the notes indicated that most, if
not all had eight 3 ft by 3 ft square doors on the roof. Now I am NOT a
Milwaukee road expert by any stretch of the imagination and am offering this
for consideration only and I yield to the experts.



Allen Cain


Re: Milwaukee Road stock car CMSTP&P. 104637

Douglas Harding
 

Gene, after looking at photos again, I agree with you. And I have forwarded
that information to Gene Green. The photo that prompted his question is one
I gave him a few weeks ago, which I took at Naperville in 2010.
Unfortunately Dave Hussey did not take any photos of the stockcar Gene Green
asked about.



I have created a photo album "MILW Stockcar" and am awaiting approval of a
couple of photos of the model in question.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: covered Hoppers

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Sorry, John, but while what you are talking about was true for covered hoppers from the mid 60's and later, Bill's question refers to cars that had a date of 1949 and in particular they are Kato two-bay ACF 70 ton hoppers. Four and five bay covered hoppers (with a few exceptions like PRR's H31 and 32 classes) were relatively unknown. Grain was universally carried in 40' boxcars (and would continue to be carried in boxcars until the late 1960's). Likewise, trough hatches, pneumatic outlet gates and other modern features (such as (gasp!) roller bearing trucks) were decades in the future. My comments refer to cars of that long-gone era. 


 
Bill Daniels
San Francisco, CA



________________________________
From: John Sykes <John.Sykes@us.army.mil>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: covered Hoppers


 
Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@...> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Milwaukee Road stock car CMSTP&P. 104637

Gene Deimling
 

Doug
I don't think that car was done by Robert Leners. I think the car
was built from a kit offered by Rails Unlimited.

Gene Deimling

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...> wrote:

Gene I believe that model was built by Robert Leners. Here are Dave Hussy's
photos of that meet. There is no photo of the MILW car, but photos of a
couple other cars he displayed. http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/naperville10
<http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/naperville10&page=all> &page=all



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC 41' FLAT CAR

Tim O'Connor
 

They were never in revenue service as far as I know. The number
series 200000 and above was for company service cars, and lists
several thousand cars without specifying what any of them are in
the ORER's.

Tim O'Connor

When were these in revenue service, and what was their number series?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:


A question that I have been unsuccessfully seeking an answer for a number of years might be
more revalent now. Central Valley has recently released a model of a Northern Pacific 41'
flat car. There is a photo of the model on CV's website. It is finished with a late lettering scheme.
This is as per a photo that Jack Parker was kind enough to share with me some years back. I
believe that earlier in its career this car was lettered with NORTHERN PACIFIC spelled out and
with Andrews trucks. I would like to find a photographic evidence of this so that i can properly
letter my car with the correct data placement.

Hopefully now that this car is on the market I can finally get an answer.

Bill Pardie


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC 41' FLAT CAR

al_brown03
 

When were these in revenue service, and what was their number series?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@...> wrote:


A question that I have been unsuccessfully seeking an answer for a number of years might be
more revalent now. Central Valley has recently released a model of a Northern Pacific 41'
flat car. There is a photo of the model on CV's website. It is finished with a late lettering scheme.
This is as per a photo that Jack Parker was kind enough to share with me some years back. I
believe that earlier in its career this car was lettered with NORTHERN PACIFIC spelled out and
with Andrews trucks. I would like to find a photographic evidence of this so that i can properly
letter my car with the correct data placement.

Hopefully now that this car is on the market I can finally get an answer.

Bill Pardie


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC 41' FLAT CAR

Andy Carlson
 

Bill,
were you aware that these company built (from box cars) were built for
non-revenue purposes?

Near absolute lack of evidence that these were ever sent off-line with an
interchanged load.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA





________________________________
From: WILLIAM PARDIE <PARDIEW001@HAWAII.RR.COM>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, March 16, 2013 3:07:42 PM
Subject: [STMFC] NORTHERN PACIFIC 41' FLAT CAR



A question that I have been unsuccessfully seeking an answer for a number of
years might be
more revalent now. Central Valley has recently released a model of a Northern
Pacific 41'
flat car. There is a photo of the model on CV's website. It is finished with
a late lettering scheme.
This is as per a photo that Jack Parker was kind enough to share with me some
years back. I
believe that earlier in its career this car was lettered with NORTHERN PACIFIC
spelled out and
with Andrews trucks. I would like to find a photographic evidence of this so
that i can properly
letter my car with the correct data placement.

Hopefully now that this car is on the market I can finally get an answer.

Bill Pardie


covered Hoppers

gary laakso
 

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol 16 at page 62 reprints an ad from General American Transportation Corp and in the last paragraph it claims leadership in “the new insulated hopper cars from bulk sugar transportation”. The ad is undated but likely run in early 1935. Is it safe to assume that the ad referenced as experimental car and would it have been a covered insulated hopper?

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


NORTHERN PACIFIC 41' FLAT CAR

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

A question that I have been unsuccessfully seeking an answer for a number of years might be
more revalent now. Central Valley has recently released a model of a Northern Pacific 41'
flat car. There is a photo of the model on CV's website. It is finished with a late lettering scheme.
This is as per a photo that Jack Parker was kind enough to share with me some years back. I
believe that earlier in its career this car was lettered with NORTHERN PACIFIC spelled out and
with Andrews trucks. I would like to find a photographic evidence of this so that i can properly
letter my car with the correct data placement.

Hopefully now that this car is on the market I can finally get an answer.

Bill Pardie


Re: covered Hoppers

John
 

Au contraire.

First of all the size of the car. Two or three bay covered hoppers carry high density products such as cement, kaolin or lime (or in the good old days, carbon black). Four and five bay covered hoppers carry lighter materials such as plastic pellets, grain or flour. The cars carrying powdery or plastic products usually have circular loading hatches and either pneumatic or gravity outlet gates (more often, pneumatic). Grain cars have long loading hatches and have gravity outlets. Rule of thumb if you are modeling - substance that are powdery or blown into the car = circular hatches, grain(which doesn't flow that well) = long trouths. By the same token - substances that are unloaded pneumatically (again, powdery or light weight materials) = obviously, pneumatic outlets. Things that flow into underground hoppers when unloading(wheat, corn) = sliding outlet gates.

Now, what is in what car? If you buy a decorated car, usually RR owned cars (e.g., UPRR)or cars labeled for some agricultural owner (e.g., Wagner Mills, ADM, Cargill) are grain (some exceptions), if labeled for something like Dow, or duPont, probably plastic (although duPont also made titanium dioxide for paint & paper making - which is a high density powder material). I think most GATX, UTLX and other leased cars are used for plastic pellets, but some may be used for grain. If it is labeled Lone Star or CEMEX it is for cement.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@...> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: covered Hoppers

BillM
 

Bill
Thank you for the information. That helps.
Blessings
Bill

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bill Daniels <billinsf@...> wrote:

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@...> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael




Re: covered Hoppers

Bill Daniels <billinsf@...>
 

Bill,

Dring that era, covered hoppers were not used for grain... In fact that didn't happen until the "Big John" covered hoppers of the Southern in the early 60's. lading like flour wasn't shipped in covered hoppers until the advent of Airslide technology about 10 years after the date of your cars. It was most likely that these cars carried cement.

As for specific hardware, I don't know that any specific hardware could be viewed that would allow you to determine what lading was carried.

Bill Daniels
On Mar 16, 2013, at 1:21 PM, "BillM" <fecbill@gmail.com> wrote:

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


covered Hoppers

BillM
 

How do you tell (or can you tell) if a covered hopper is used for cement, or grain, or other loading. I am asking concerning physical/mechanical devices on the car such as top hatches and hopper unloading equipment as opposed to lettering, stencils or weathering.

Specifically I have three Kato HO scale 2 bay covered hoppers lettered for Milwaukee Road. The lettering indicates blt date of 1949.

Thank you
Bill Michael


Re: 1937 UP boxcar #ing help #ing

Dick Harley
 

On Thu Mar 14, 2013 George Courtney asked about lettering an S scale
40-ft double-door steel boxcar as an OSL (UP) car and possibly using
slogan letters for the reporting marks.

FWIW, the SAW slogan is done in 10-inch lettering, and the reporting
marks are done in 9-inch letters.

Maybe more importantly, I don't know of any double-door steel boxcars
lettered for OSL or any other UP subsidiary.
And the B-50-27 is the only class of single-door steel boxcars
lettered for OSL.

Please let me know if I have forgotten something.


Cheers,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA


Re: Milwaukee Road stock car CMSTP&P. 104637

Douglas Harding
 

Gene I believe that model was built by Robert Leners. Here are Dave Hussy's
photos of that meet. There is no photo of the MILW car, but photos of a
couple other cars he displayed. http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/naperville10
<http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/naperville10&page=all> &page=all



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Milwaukee Road stock car CMSTP&P. 104637

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

At Naperville in October of 2010 someone displayed a Milwaukee Road stock car lettered "C.M.STP.&P. 104637." I suspect this car was built in O Scale. I would like to contact the builder or owner of this stock car. Please email me at bierglaeser at yahoo dot com.
Gene Green

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