I had planned to do this prototype as a kit but put it off for lack of modeler interest. Why didn’t you guys start this thread five years ago? – Al Westerfield

From: Douglas Harding
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:14 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Railway_Bull_Shippers_Group@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Carstens reefer


Forgot to add, the logo painted on the Carstens reefer is the logo they used
on their delivery trucks, visible in a photo taken in the late 20's. It does
not show in photos taken in 1909 of delivery wagons. I have no idea if this
logo was ever used on a reefer, I have no photo or drawing to show.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul Woods asked:
"First project is to be a NYC steel boxcar from the early 20's,
diagram B41, I think it is. If anyone can help with plans or
photos, 'twould be much appreciated."

Paul, welcome aboard!

"B-41" is most the page number from the NYC diagram book.
Unfortunately, it's not much help to the rest of us if you don't have
the date of the diagram book. (There should be a revision date next
to the page number.) NYC diagram books typically use two pages to
illustrate groups of cars - the first has a diagram illustrating the
major dimensions, and a second page listing the applicable lot numbers,
number series, capacity, light weight, general drawing, builders data,
and quanitities. Once you have the lot numbers, you can cross-
reference them against the information at Terry Link's website at
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT.htm
to get you started on getting additional information once you've
identified the car.


Ben Hom

Hi All

I have recently joined, and thought it was only proper that I should post an introduction before I do anything else. My name is Paul, residing in Whangarei, New Zealand. My interest in North American railroading comes from when, as an impressionable eight-year-old, a kindly bookstore owner would give me the 'innards' from Railroad Model Craftsman magazines that she was returning for refund - she only had to return the outer covers, so the rest would only go in the bin anyway. There was often an ad on the 'front' page for a brass NYC J3 at that time, and I suspect that contributed to my passion for all things NYC.

Until now, my modelling has been confined to NZ prototype (3'6" gauge), but for being in 1/34 scale (to run on O-gauge track) the temptation to indulge my liking for the NYC in O-scale has proved too much to resist. I lean towards immediate pre-WW2 era, when there were far more wood-sheathed cars around, K-brakes etc. My preferred method of construction is brass, and happily as a CAD draughtsman by training, I can prepare my own brass etch artwork and 3D CAD models for rapid prototyping. I am very fortunate to have not too far from me, a very capable and model-friendly jewellery casting company that does a nice job of brass casting.

However, the result is only as good as the information I have to work from, and until now it has been difficult to source detailed plans. Luckily I stumbled across this chat group, and am already overjoyed at the wealth of information, plans, pictures etc I find. First project is to be a NYC steel boxcar from the early 20's, diagram B41, I think it is. If anyone can help with plans or photos, 'twould be much appreciated.

Regards
Paul Woods
Maungakaramea, New Zealand

I am jumping in here late and this may have already been mentioned but MEK,
Acetone and
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_206492-34228-CR.LT.M.04_0__?productId=4284127&Ntt=t
hinner&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dthinner&facetInfo=> Lacquer Thinner are all
listed on Lowe's website and are available at least in most stores around
Nashville, TN.



Allen Cain

I was at Lowe's today, and this brand MEK : http://www.packserv.com/products/crown/crown-diy/ is available, at least in New Mexico for about $22.00 a gallon.


Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm ent

On 3/23/2013 9:40 AM, Mark Drake wrote:

I just saw MEK substitute at Home Depot, I wasn't even looking for it.

Reports are this doesn't work, and I think would turn Jack's hair red!
MEK is used for other things on our RR's besides freight cars so really
hope we can find a way around this problem.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Forgot to add, the logo painted on the Carstens reefer is the logo they used
on their delivery trucks, visible in a photo taken in the late 20's. It does
not show in photos taken in 1909 of delivery wagons. I have no idea if this
logo was ever used on a reefer, I have no photo or drawing to show.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

OK I've been doing some more digging regarding the Carstens Company. I have
not found any evidence that the company used the reporting marks CPCX, as
seen on the photo of #109. CPCX was used by Cosden Petroleum beginning in
1937, known for Diamond, DX & Mid-Continent Oil products. Near as I can tell
Carstens used TCRL, and perhaps TCRX.



As for the photo itself, it looks like the car has been repainted, except
for the logo, as if someone was attempting to preserve it. And there are no
other markings or lettering, which makes me wonder if someone, not knowing
the proper lettering just guessed as to the reporting marks.



Reporting Marks, from ORER and other sources.

1901 ORER no listing.

1907 document for Asso of Transportation & Car Accounting Officers p 976
shows Carstens Packing Co (see Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line - TCRX)

1908, March, ORER listed as Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line - shows reefers
listed 100-110 - TCRL

1909, March listed as Carstens Packing Co.

1910, listing in Wyoming Auditor report as Thos Carstens Refrigerator Line

1913 ORER shown as Carstens Packing Co. - TCRL w/ 5 reefers 101-108, 4 tanks
101, 104-6



Lettering

c. 1900 Art Griffin decal with the following lettering:

Carstens Packing Co. Beef & Pork Packers CRL 103, P.S.E. Ry (Puget Sound
Electric Railway?)



Clover House #8883-01 dry transfer lettered as:

White Swan Shortening, TCRL 108





The Carstens Packing Company was a Meat Packer based in Tacoma WA. Here is a
Company Time Line I have created.



1890 Organized as Carstens Brothers, a small butcher shop with three
employees in Seattle

1897 The Carstens Packing Company was founded, opening a packing house near
the Grant St. Bridge

1903 relocated to Tacoma, on the Tacoma tideflats, 1623 East J St.; site of
the old Pacific Meat Co. ruins relocated in Tacoma in 1903 under the name
of Carstens Bros. Packing Co.

1904 Incorporated by Thomas Carstens

1905 it was reincorporated as Carstens Packing Co. Known as one of the
largest slaughtering and packing houses on the west coast.

1908 A new sausage kitchen was constructed, doubling the capacity of the
department. A modern three-story boarding house for the accommodation of
their employees was built with workers only being charged a nominal fee for
room and board. It is not clear whether the company also had separate dining
facilities elsewhere on plant grounds.

1909 150 cattle, 400 sheep and 300 hogs were slaughtered daily By the
decade's end, Carstens handled 1,800 cars of cattle, 600 cars of sheep and
1200 cars of hogs yearly.

1914 Purchased Empire Packing Co of Spokane WA

1914 had a fire

1916 had a fire, built new concrete structures to replace wood buildings.

1926 Oct 21, Advertised bonds for company expansion, built a new 4 story
unit to hold the sausage factory, sausage coolers, lard refinery and smoke
houses, beef coolers and beef sales coolers. Had 652 employees with packing
plants in Tacoma and Spokane, and 50 distributing branches and markets in 24
cities and towns throughout the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho and
Alaska.

1931 build a new office building

1947 put a new Kartridg-Pack machine into use in mid-May for packing wieners
side-by-side, bound together by paper loops instead of the usual method of
stringing them tail-to-tail. The Kartridge-Pack had the ability to pack
3,200 pounds of wieners per 8 hour shift.

1947 June Carstens added refrigerated trucks to their fleet. The new trucks
are the first of their kind in Tacoma. They were built on Chevrolet chassis
and designed by Right of Way Auto Works of Tacoma. Designed by Carstens
personal, the trucks are called "mobile sales units".

1954 sold to Hygrade Food Products Inc.

1954 built new fertilizer production facility to replace an outmoded part of
the plant

1990 plant closed





Carstens had a lard, tallow and oleo refinery on part of its 15-acre
property. Along with a glue factory, tannery, and fertilizer plant.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

Tim,
Methinks former Wabash 8000-8299. N&W apparently added a 30 prefix to the
Wabash numbers, 308000-308299.
Check the N&W Historical Society pages,
http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/rollingstock.php?RRSelect=N%26W+Rwy&CatSel
ect=Freight&Directions=True

There's also a good side shot of 308128 from the same source.
Later,
Bill Kelly

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 17:08:01 -0400 Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net>
writes:

Anyone know the original owner & number series of this box car,
a welded, 40 foot double door car? I have no information on it.
It is stenciled built in 1950.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111035960674

Tim O'Connor

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

Tim: The car is riveted and not welded, look at the rivets in the lettering.
It's pretty late for new a 40 ft DD. It does have reinforcement gussets at
the doors and a full length side sill so this may have been a rebuild. Could
also be from one of the RR N&W bought in 1964, Wabash,P&WV, NKP. It doesn't
match anything in my NKP diagram book.



Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 5:08 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] origin of this N&W box car?





Anyone know the original owner & number series of this box car,
a welded, 40 foot double door car? I have no information on it.
It is stenciled built in 1950.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111035960674

Tim O'Connor

Anyone know the original owner & number series of this box car,
a welded, 40 foot double door car? I have no information on it.
It is stenciled built in 1950.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111035960674

Tim O'Connor

< To Jack Burgess:
<I'm sure you are aware of the illustration of their tank car for
<Yosemity Lumber # 1 with the dome at the very end of the tank, page #
<54. Was that because needed on the Incline ?
<
<Joe Bower

Yes, they had three of these tank cars and used them to transport Bunker C
up the incline to the logging camps for the Shays. I built a model of one of
these cars last year. The Seattle Car and Foundry Co. also built all of the
log cars for the YV (Page 36-37 of the catalog) and 6 box cars for the line.

Jack Burgess

Doug Harding, Yahoo Group, and attn. Jack Burgess.



Thanks Doug for the lead to the Seattle Car and Foundry Catalog, I was able
to down load it and select and print certain pages. The car specifications
are particularly detailed and complete. To Jack Burgess: I'm sure you are
aware of the illustration of their tank car for Yosemity Lumber # 1 with the
dome at the very end of the tank, page # 54. Was that because needed on the
Incline ?

Joe Bower

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Douglas Harding
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 9:13 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Carstens reefer





Here is a link to the 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog. You can download
a pdf in the menu box to the left. Go to page 47 to see Carstens reefer 108
in their White Swan Shortening paint scheme. The description states ice
bunkers in the ends. On page 48 is what appears to be an identical car for
Frye & Company (an early meat packer in Seattle), which states the doors are
located at diagonal corners with ice bunker in the ends.

http://archive.org/details/catalogueno300seatrich

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

I did a google search for "reporting marks" "carstens packing" and turned up a page in the February 1919 ORER.

Carstens showed a series 101-108 (5 cars) as refrigerator cars with an internal length of 34'. There were no other dimensions mentioned. There is no car listed as 109 (the one in the photo). THAT one sure doesn't look to me like it has an IL of 34'. Assuming a truck wheelbase of 5', I get an external length of 33'. 109 looks to be an orphan.

There were also 4 tank cars: 100 and 104-106


Ed

Edward Sutorik

I just saw MEK substitute at Home Depot, I wasn't even looking for it.


Mark L. Drake
eBay ID member1108


________________________________
From: jimbetz <jimbetz@jimbetz.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 12:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: MEK...


 

Hmmmmmm ...

The first time I met Jack Burgess was during a visit to his layout way
back in the late 80's. I remember being impressed by 2 things at the
time ... his incredible modeling and his white hair.

Now I find out he uses MEK ..................

Could there be a connection? ;-) How many times can you scratch your
head with some MEK on your fingers before it starts to show?

My other question is - is it the MEK that makes/defines a great model
railroad?
*VBG* .............. Jim




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmmmmm ...

The first time I met Jack Burgess was during a visit to his layout way
back in the late 80's. I remember being impressed by 2 things at the
time ... his incredible modeling and his white hair.

Now I find out he uses MEK ..................

Could there be a connection? ;-) How many times can you scratch your
head with some MEK on your fingers before it starts to show?

My other question is - is it the MEK that makes/defines a great model
railroad?
*VBG* .............. Jim

<I spent last night cutting a hatch into the floor of my car's truck,
<dropping in a bigger engine and equipping it with heavier springs....
<going to load up on MEK and run it to California ... hear tell some
<modelers there will be paying good money for the real stuff.....I have
<to stop in Connecticut and get Schneider to ride shotgun....

Marty...

Let me know when you two are going to arrive so that I can meet you at the
California/Nevada border and make sure I get 5-10 gallons of the stuff! By
then, the street price will probably be over $200 a gallon!

Jack Burgess

<Youz guiz had me scared, so I stopped at Lowes tonight here in
<Tallahassee and picked up a gallon of MEK. They were out of toluene,
<but I think that is just a temporary situation. Testors tube cement use
<to contain toluene, but the liquid is definitely MEK.
<
<I also picked up some xylenes, Japan drier, denatured alcohol and boiled
<linseed oil, just to be sure. The checkout girl musta thought I was
<building a bomb or a rocket ship.
<
<-- John

I hear you John. The other day (true story) when I was looking at
Klean-Strip's website, I thought that they had also discontinued lacquer
thinner which I use a lot of to clean my air brush. Later the same day, I
realized that they had discontinued "Premium Lacquer Thinner" but not the
regular one. But I still stopped by my Ace hardware the next day and bought
2 gallons of lacquer thinner.

Just couldn't help myself...

Jack Burgess

I spent last night cutting a hatch into the floor of my car's truck, dropping in a bigger engine and equipping it with heavier springs.... going to load up on MEK and run it to California ... hear tell some modelers there will be paying good money for the real stuff.....I have to stop in Connecticut and get Schneider to ride shotgun....

Here is a link to the 1913 Seattle Car and Foundry catalog. You can download
a pdf in the menu box to the left. Go to page 47 to see Carstens reefer 108
in their White Swan Shortening paint scheme. The description states ice
bunkers in the ends. On page 48 is what appears to be an identical car for
Frye & Company (an early meat packer in Seattle), which states the doors are
located at diagonal corners with ice bunker in the ends.



http://archive.org/details/catalogueno300seatrich







Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org