Re: Freight Car Measurements

Charles Hostetler

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ed" <lehighman@...> wrote:

I have been researching older ORER's with idea of scratch building some cars that are not available commercially. Most of the measurements are self evident except for the outside length. What are the reference points for this measurement? Is it the end of the bulkheads, the end of the coupler boxes, the end of the couplers, something else? If it is not the end of the bulkheads, how does one use the ORER data to build a car?

Ed Robinson

Ed,

Coincidentally, I spent part of the day trying to figure this out myself. I started the hard (but rather enjoyable) way by looking at a "Plan and Sections" diagram of a UP B-50-24 box car (Car Builder's Cyc, 1946, page 399, Figure 3.24) which indicates that the length over end sills is 40' 8 1/4", while the length over strikers is 41' 8 1/2". The Jan. 1958 ORER lists 41' 9" , which appears to correspond to the length over strikers. I looked at several other diagrams and compared them to the ORER listing with similar results.

Then I did what I should have done in the first place and looked at the ORER Section called "Key Pages for Standard Headings In Registration Pages" (its in the back, in the Editorial Section). This is what it says:

"Dimensions - Outside - Length.

In columns 7 or h, under this heading, will be inserted outside length of car in feet and inches, in even inches (fraction of an inch to be added when an even inch is exceeded, making figure reported next higher even inch). Measurement should be taken between coupler striking castings (see Diagrams, Figures 5a, 5b, and 5c.)"

So the measurement is over the strikers.

I found in order to get things working correctly you need more than just info from the ORER. I think you also need a photograph you can work with, a knowledge of some standard car building practices, an idea of what materials you are going to work with, and some details about the coupler box you will be mounting. I found this an extremely interesting process and am preparing a blog post about it which I will share shortly when its finished. It took me several iterations, but I finally produced a side drawing of an EJ&E gon that looked in proportion, had the coupler height correct, room for the floor and weight, and the height of the top of the car and the IH correct. The bolster center was 5'6" from the striker, and the ribs and rivet patterns matched up with the bolster and the angles of the fishbelly.

Excuse me for running on, but I really was impressed with the amount of consideration that manufacturers must give to a host of details to get a car that looks right, runs right, and can be built out of real-world materials...

Regards,

Charles Hostetler

Handcock Hand Brake Availability Question

Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>

Does anyone make a Handcock hand brake in HO scale? A search of Walthers and
a Google search both came up empty.

Nelson Moyer

Freight Car Measurements

Ed

I have been researching older ORER's with idea of scratch building some cars that are not available commercially. Most of the measurements are self evident except for the outside length. What are the reference points for this measurement? Is it the end of the bulkheads, the end of the coupler boxes, the end of the couplers, something else? If it is not the end of the bulkheads, how does one use the ORER data to build a car?

Ed Robinson

Re: Railroad colors and the demise of Floquil

RandyH <hees@...>

Pantone (PMS) and Munsel systems are commonly used by those of us doing restoration feasibility studies, but there are issues.

Pantone was developed for printer's ink... and until recently when extended to paint (and fabric) was too limited for what we do... It has gotten better recently... but the best match for "pullman color" is still a version of black.

Munsel, developed for architects covered a bigger range of color, but is not common, so while it may accurately describe a color, it is difficult to make it useful in the real world.

Alternately, we can preserve samples of materiel, either "drift cards", Samples of original material with paint, or match cards made using modern artist paints, on a stable media... this preserves accurate information, but is hard to disseminate (you need to have access to the physical sample).

So, in any case, there are two issues, 1) accurately recording the color, and 2) making that information available.

A color formula is not a good way of describing a color... it will always be subject to changes or abandonment of the paint system in question.

Randy Hees
www.pacificng.com
www.rypn.org
www.spcrr.org

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Don Burn <burn@...> wrote:
With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering has
anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint independent
way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have lost a paint
line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we may be barred more
options in the future. Even before Floquil's demise the concerns about
color drift of the product have been expressed on this forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other
independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking of
folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of the
prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all the way to
the type of lighting on a layout impact our color perception but having a
basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a
particular car, or someone's published mix for a particular railroads
color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been
invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring something
not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn

--
*Thomas j Cataldo*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

O Fenton Wells

John, I have a pair of Tayolr trucks. COntact me off list if you are
interested.
Fenton Wells
<srrfan1401@gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 8:37 PM, John Degnan <Scaler164@comcast.net> wrote:

**

Ok... assuming the photos get approved by the group owner... they should
be viewable via the following link :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/374241816/pic/list

If the link doesn't work, go into the Photos section and look for the
folder entitled "RDG / S&A Caboose Trucks"

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: John Degnan
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 08:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

OK, nevermind... I had forgotten that this group does not allow
attachments! How inconvenient.

I'll post the photos to my site and re-post the links later.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: John Degnan
To: POST : STMFC Group
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 08:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

I am in in the market for ONE set of Taylor Flexible caboose trucks (as
seen in the attached photo - S&A256Truck.jpg) and one other type of
leaf-springed truck, which I cannot identify, for my S&A (ex-Reading)
caboose projects. Thanks to the help of Justin May, I managed to locate a
few photos of the two S&A cabs on the http://archive.nmra.org site - #s
255 and 256. These photos show # 256 with the Taylor truck and # 255 with a
different type of leaf truck (S&A255Truck00.jpg). Can anyone identify this
type truck? Are these type available in HO scale?

I'm building these two cabs in both HO and S scale.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@gmail.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice images

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)

Re: RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>

Ok... assuming the photos get approved by the group owner... they should be viewable via the following link :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/album/374241816/pic/list

If the link doesn't work, go into the Photos section and look for the folder entitled "RDG / S&A Caboose Trucks"

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: John Degnan
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 08:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

OK, nevermind... I had forgotten that this group does not allow attachments! How inconvenient.

I'll post the photos to my site and re-post the links later.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: John Degnan
To: POST : STMFC Group
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 08:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

I am in in the market for ONE set of Taylor Flexible caboose trucks (as seen in the attached photo - S&A256Truck.jpg) and one other type of leaf-springed truck, which I cannot identify, for my S&A (ex-Reading) caboose projects. Thanks to the help of Justin May, I managed to locate a few photos of the two S&A cabs on the http://archive.nmra.org site - #s 255 and 256. These photos show # 256 with the Taylor truck and # 255 with a different type of leaf truck (S&A255Truck00.jpg). Can anyone identify this type truck? Are these type available in HO scale?

I'm building these two cabs in both HO and S scale.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Re: RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>

OK, nevermind... I had forgotten that this group does not allow attachments! How inconvenient.

I'll post the photos to my site and re-post the links later.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: John Degnan
To: POST : STMFC Group
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 08:19 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

I am in in the market for ONE set of Taylor Flexible caboose trucks (as seen in the attached photo - S&A256Truck.jpg) and one other type of leaf-springed truck, which I cannot identify, for my S&A (ex-Reading) caboose projects. Thanks to the help of Justin May, I managed to locate a few photos of the two S&A cabs on the http://archive.nmra.org site - #s 255 and 256. These photos show # 256 with the Taylor truck and # 255 with a different type of leaf truck (S&A255Truck00.jpg). Can anyone identify this type truck? Are these type available in HO scale?

I'm building these two cabs in both HO and S scale.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

------------------------------------

RDG / S&A Caboose Truck Type?

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>

I am in in the market for ONE set of Taylor Flexible caboose trucks (as seen in the attached photo - S&A256Truck.jpg) and one other type of leaf-springed truck, which I cannot identify, for my S&A (ex-Reading) caboose projects. Thanks to the help of Justin May, I managed to locate a few photos of the two S&A cabs on the http://archive.nmra.org site - #s 255 and 256. These photos show # 256 with the Taylor truck and # 255 with a different type of leaf truck (S&A255Truck00.jpg). Can anyone identify this type truck? Are these type available in HO scale?

I'm building these two cabs in both HO and S scale.

John Degnan
Scaler164@comcast.net
Scaler187@comcast.net

Re: Airbrushing Resin Kits

Malcolm H. Houck

Gents,

I have used a very simple method for holding cars when airbrushing,
both resin cars and others as well. I take a length of plastic pipe hanger
material and bend one end sharply at the right angle. Using one of
the punched holes I screw the piece to the car bolster using the truck
mounting screw through the bolster kingpin hole.

Making a gentle arc I cut the pipe hanger to length while giving me
enough material to make a hand hold. Bending the loose end again at
a right angle I screw down the other end firmly. This makes a large
loop by which I can hold the car, rotate it to all angles and spray as I
go. The loop can then be hung on a hook for drying without ever touching
another surface.

When dry I remove the pipe hanger and save for the next job. I have
accumulated a number of these pipe hangers handles, of varying
lengths from different jobs painting cars of varying lengths as well.

I add this to my personal catalog of workshop tricks, along with using
cheap Dollar Store shot glasses for mixing paints or as parts holders
on the bench.

Mal Houck

Re: Airbrushing Resin Kits

Pierre <pierre.oliver@...>

RJ et all,
I've just blogged about I solve this problem for myself.
http://www.elgincarshops.com/mylayout.php
Enjoy,
Pierre Oliver

While the spring loaded "expander" handle works fine for car bodies with removable shells, what does one use to hold assembled Westerfield and Sunshine models for spray-painting? Any tips?
Thx,
RJ Dial
Pleasanton, CA

Re: SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

Steve SANDIFER

I have a photo of a SK-T 60289 marked A.T.S.F. that must be mid 50s or later. It is beside a FT in Cigar paint with lifting lugs and a Firecracker antennae. Photo at Perry Oklahoma.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

On May 27, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Steve Sandifer <steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> The change from A.T.& S.F to A.T.S.F. took place in 1938
> The change from A.T. S. F. to ATSF took place in 1944
> Just because the lettering changed does not mean they swapped to shorter boards. I have seen photos of ATSF on long boards.
> Trucks: "Bettendorf" type cast steel
>
Steve is, as usual, correct, though it is worth noting that these changes were usually not made until a car was repainted, which was often several years (and sometimes many years) after the change went into effect.

Trtucks on all of the stock cars built by the Pennsylvania Car Co. in the late '20s were ARA cast steel with spring planks and Barber lateral motion devices. An exact HO scale reproduction is Tahoe Model Works' TMW109 (110wheels) or TMW 209 (88 wheels). See my model truck presentation at <https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1>.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: Railroad colors and the demise of Floquil

Thomas Birkett

DTM

Direct to metal freight car enamel. DuPont. Also Mobil and others.
Tom Birkett
Bartlesville

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Cataldo
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 9:33 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Railroad colors and the demise of Floquil

Railroad color chip like from dupont paint give you a display look of a
railroad color dupont like most paints today are *Acrylic back in the 1930
to 60's was ** Enamel
*
*base paints

*
* tom
*

On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Don Burn <burn@windrvr.com> wrote:

**

With all the discussion of the demise of Floquil it got me wondering
has anyone ever considered recording railroad colors in a paint
independent way? The latest announcement is not the first time we have
lost a paint line, and with concerns about lacquers in some places we
may be barred more options in the future. Even before Floquil's demise
the concerns about color drift of the product have been expressed on this
forum.

So the question is has anyone ever considered Pantone or some other
independent scheme for denoting the colors. I am particularly thinking
of folks with paint chips or other data that represents the real color.

I realize that a large number of factors from fading and weathering of
the prototype, the type of film that was used to take the photo, all
the way to the type of lighting on a layout impact our color
perception but having a basis to start would help.

A lot of us base our formula on an article about building a model of a
particular car, or someone's published mix for a particular railroads
color. With the loss of Floquil a lot of these sources have been
invalidated, and as we build up new approaches perhaps figuring
something not dependant on a paint manufacturer should be considered.

Don Burn

--
*Thomas j Cataldo*

------------------------------------

Re: SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

Richard Hendrickson

On May 27, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Steve Sandifer <steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The change from A.T.& S.F to A.T.S.F. took place in 1938
The change from A.T. S. F. to ATSF took place in 1944
Just because the lettering changed does not mean they swapped to shorter boards. I have seen photos of ATSF on long boards.
Trucks: "Bettendorf" type cast steel
Steve is, as usual, correct, though it is worth noting that these changes were usually not made until a car was repainted, which was often several years (and sometimes many years) after the change went into effect.

Trtucks on all of the stock cars built by the Pennsylvania Car Co. in the late '20s were ARA cast steel with spring planks and Barber lateral motion devices. An exact HO scale reproduction is Tahoe Model Works' TMW109 (110wheels) or TMW 209 (88 wheels). See my model truck presentation at <https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz_ctrHrDz4wMkpBYUw1RjhmRkE/edit?pli=1>.

Richard Hendrickson

Re: SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

Tony Thompson

Steve Sandifer wrote:
The change from A.T.& S.F to A.T.S.F. took place in 1938
The change from A.T. S. F. to ATSF took place in 1944
As Richard Hendrickson pointed out in the Santa Fe Painting and Lettering Guide, the first cars delivered to Santa Fe without periods were in June of 1943, presumably reflecting a change by the railroad. But cars delivered as late as February 1944 still had periods, likely builders who didn't get (or acted as if they didn't get) the message. This kind of observation can be made for lots of railroads, including cases with the Southern Pacific where builders were not following the railroad's own lettering spec seven years after a change. But for the present case, evidently the Santa Fe internally decided in 1943 to drop the periods.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

Steve SANDIFER

The change from A.T.& S.F to A.T.S.F. took place in 1938
The change from A.T. S. F. to ATSF took place in 1944
Just because the lettering changed does not mean they swapped to shorter boards. I have seen photos of ATSF on long boards.
Trucks: "Bettendorf" type cast steel

http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Paint/index.htm
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: WILLIAM PARDIE
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 1:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

I would like to determine when the Santa Fe changed from the long
lettering boards with A.T.& S.F. To the shorter boards without the
periods.

Also would like a recommendation for the best trucks for the SK-Q
and SK-S series.

Thankd in davance:

Bill Pardie

Re: SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

Tony Thompson

Bill Pardie wrote:
I would like to determine when the Santa Fe changed from the long lettering boards with A.T.& S.F. To the shorter boards without the periods.
Bill, the ampersand was dropped in 1938 and the periods in A.T.S.F. were dropped in 1943.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

SANTA FE STOCK CAR LETTERING

WILLIAM PARDIE

I would like to determine when the Santa Fe changed from the long
lettering boards with A.T.& S.F. To the shorter boards without the
periods.

Also would like a recommendation for the best trucks for the SK-Q
and SK-S series.

Thankd in davance:

Bill Pardie

Re: Scratching my head over Speedwitch's SP/T&NO A-50-4 auto car--Kit K118

Tony Thompson

Bill Welch wrote:
I am also doing the origami necessary for the little brackets for the end placard boards. As I look at the prototype photos in the instructions however it appears the metal straps or tabs extend from the bottom edge of the placard board in the conventional method but the top the straps appear to extend from the top vertical edges, which is not conventional but a very interesting detail I would like to model if true. Can anyone speak to this?
Bill, I have looked at a number of photos of SP cars in this era and cannot see anything strange or different about the end placard board attachments.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

a few shots with steam era freight cars . . .

Schuyler Larrabee

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