Date   

Re: Digest Number 8040

Jim Betz
 

Tony,

I think you misunderstood me. It wasn't well said either. I
wasn't saying "acrylic washes don't work". I use acrylic washes
(and acrylic dry brush techniques) for almost all of my weathering
and have been doing so for several years now (I used to do most
of my weathering using Floquil lacquer weathering colors and an
air brush and have pretty much abandoned that ...).

What I was talking about was using acrylic washes to achieve
that "faded paint" look (not the dirt but the overall color).

If you have techniques for getting that effect ... I am -very-
interested and will definitely schedule a visit.
- Jim


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Mikebrock
 

To add a few more observations, my modeling period of 1953/1954 features the introduction of a relatively large amount of new frt cars into the US fleet. This was the time during which the frt cars of WWII were being replaced by new cars. For example, the PS-1. I try to weather cars built after 1950 in a less "dirty" mode compared to earlier cars, particularly those not recently painted. In essence, the older the car, the more weathered the car. Add ten if the car spent time in Pittsburgh.

Richard is correct, I think, with regard to coal fired engines. Having been drenched by coal cinders produced by 3985, 1218, 611, and others, and having observed Steve Lee's newly acquired blackened face after running 3985 when coal fired, coal is indeed dirty. And, the coal fired industries of the northeast [ east of the Sierras of course ] helped.

I think Tony has it right. A mixture based on location and age.

Mike Brock


Re: Weathering freight cars

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:
Some guys seem to have done "fairly well" with thin acrylic washes that are "just a few shades off of the color of the paint they are trying to fade" ... I have not been able to do that. And those guys I'm talking about - don't do it on "lots of models" ... one or two and then they go back to "regular" weathering.
Gee, Jim, I've done exactly that on several hundred freight cars, including a lot of Otis McGee's fleet. Give me a call and you can come over for a demo. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Weathering freight cars

Jim Betz
 

Gene,

When I got into model railroading (in the 80's, what I did as
a child was "play with trains") one of my first projects was to
try to create some GN FAs. I started with an HO shell and
was going to super detail it ... but wanted "see thru" fan
grills in the rear. I spent a couple of days opening up the
space between each of the blades grill - by first cutting thru
and then using the back of an Xacto to scrape them and
finally sanding to 'perfection'.
I was really proud of, and happy with the results ... so I
took them to work to show them to a model railroading
buddy of mine. I took it in and showed him and got the
praise I expected ... then took it back out to the car and
set it on the floor of the car where they wouldn't get
any sun (dash and doors keeping them in shade - and in
an Athearn blue box.
Came back out at noon to go to lunch. Opened the box
to discover that the shell had "wilted" due to the heat in
the car (this was in San Jose in November and was not a
hot day).

It was years before I finally was able to do an FA project.

One of the LHS had some Athearn Daylight cars in the
window for -years- and the boxes they were sitting on and
the models themselves did fade (morning sun only and
the window display was 'protected' by the air conditioning
in the store ... and the models still 'melted'.

****

Sunlight may be the same "fading agent" as what causes
those colors on the prototype ... but it just isn't feasible for
our models. It takes too long - and almost always attacks
the plastic and deforming the shapes before the fading is
even noticeable.
Furthermore - the result isn't really "right".

****

I have experimented with many, many different "weathering
agents" over the years - trying to get that "faded paint" look
that I think your son wants to do.
Vinegar, commercial stuff, acetic acid, lacquer thinner, bleach,
very thin acrylic washes, detergents, thinned out battery acid,
even some of my wife's hair products. I have never even
gotten close to the look of "paint that has oxidized due to
time". I have also discovered that "what works for one
model" (attacks the paint in any way similar to fading) does
not work for the next one (different paint formulas!).

When I say "never even gotten close" I'm talking about
not even usable. Most of my experiments have been done
on box cars and other such "expendable" models ... and I'm
really, REALLY glad I didn't use a model that I'd have to
strip and start over.

****

Some guys seem to have done "fairly well" with thin
acrylic washes that are "just a few shades off of the
color of the paint they are trying to fade" ... I have not
been able to do that. And those guys I'm talking about -
don't do it on "lots of models" ... one or two and then
they go back to "regular" weathering.

****

BTW - a guy I used to hang out with tried starting
out with a "faded" color ... actually painting the model
in "faded" paint. His color was acceptable ... but the
model wasn't "successful" ... and he didn't do any
others. He also said that guys who should know - would
tell him that he "hadn't painted the model the "correct"
color" ... *G*
- Jim Betz


new book on SP standard depots

Tony Thompson
 

Signature Press is proud to announce publication of a new book about Southern Pacific Standard-Design depots, by Henry Bender. This 320-page book provides photographs of a great many depots, not only the numbered designs (from 1 to 26) but many others besides, such as the colonnade style, and the standard designs of several predecessor railroads. You can find out more about the book, including its table of contents, at our web site:

www.signaturepress.com

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 12, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Jack Burgess <jack@yosemitevalleyrr.com> wrote:

Richard mentioned
<There is abundant photographic evidence that (1) steam era freight cars
<were dirty and weathered roughly proportional to how long it had been
<since they were repainted, (2) repainting was infrequent - seldom more
<than every ten years or so and often much longer than that, and (3) cars
<that had not been repainted for a long time were seriously faded and
<filthy owing not only to weathering but to the grime continually
<deposited on them from steam locomotive stacks and the mills and
<factories adjacent to rail lines and freight yards. I think only those
<who experienced it first hand can imagine how dirty railroads were in
<the '30s-'40s-early '50s. Heavy weathering on at least some cars is far
<from "a grievous error," as Armand claims; in fact it's an essential
<element of realism. Sorry, but this fact is so well documented that it
<simply is not open to discussion.
<
<Richard Hendrickson

I seem to recall that you previously stated the same general idea during a
clinic I attended but qualified it to the demands on the railroad industry
by WWII which makes sense. But I model 1939 and the few color photos that I
have of mixed trains (circa 1943) don't show heavy weathering. It is
important to note that foreign freight cars on the YV tended to be western
roads...SP, ATSF, GN, NP, etc. So, was this heavy weathering a more
pronounced with eastern roads (likely in my mind) and also more pronounced
as the war dragged on for a couple more years?
Yes, and yes. Weathering and dirt on freight cars were subject to numerous variables I didn't take the time to discuss in detail, but location and era were certainly among them. Western RR cars that were confined mostly to the western states (e.g. stock cars) tended to be more faded by sun and cleaning chemicals and less grimy. The opposite was true of eastern RR cars that stayed mostly in the east (e.g., coal hoppers). It's also worth noting that, in general, the stack exhaust from the oil burning steam locomotives used out west was relatively less dirty than was the case with coal burners. And, of course, deferred maintenance during World War II left the North American freight car fleet much dirtier in the late '40s than it had been in the prewar period. As always in prototype modeling, one has to focus on the conditions at the location being modeled and at the exact point in time one's modeling represents.


Richard Hendrickson


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 6/12/2013 5:14 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
who experienced it first hand can imagine how dirty railroads were in the '30s-'40s-early '50s
While I am slightly younger than the era I model I do remember
that, in the small town I was born in, wash was only done onthe days the
peddlerfreight didn't go through town. This was so the sheets didn't
come in black and we lived at least a couple of blocks from the rails.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: : Weathering freight cars

tbarney2004
 

On 6/12/2013 8:59 PM, Jack Burgess wrote:
Richard mentioned
<There is abundant photographic evidence that (1) steam era freight cars
<were dirty and weathered roughly proportional to how long it had been
<since they were repainted, (2) repainting was infrequent - seldom more
<than every ten years or so and often much longer than that, and (3) cars
<that had not been repainted for a long time were seriously faded and
<filthy owing not only to weathering but to the grime continually
<deposited on them from steam locomotive stacks and the mills and
<factories adjacent to rail lines and freight yards. I think only those
<who experienced it first hand can imagine how dirty railroads were in
<the '30s-'40s-early '50s. Heavy weathering on at least some cars is far
<from "a grievous error," as Armand claims; in fact it's an essential
<element of realism. Sorry, but this fact is so well documented that it
<simply is not open to discussion.
<
<Richard Hendrickson

I seem to recall that you previously stated the same general idea during a
clinic I attended but qualified it to the demands on the railroad industry
by WWII which makes sense. But I model 1939 and the few color photos that I
have of mixed trains (circa 1943) don't show heavy weathering. It is
important to note that foreign freight cars on the YV tended to be western
roads...SP, ATSF, GN, NP, etc. So, was this heavy weathering a more
pronounced with eastern roads (likely in my mind) and also more pronounced
as the war dragged on for a couple more years?

Jack Burgess
I've seen many winter-time pictures of my hometown, Altoona, where the snow between the tracks and near the rail lines was so dirty and black that you could barely tell that there WAS snow on the ground, so it really wouldn't surprise me. Also, the house I grew up in as a kid in the 70s and 80s contained, in the garage out back as part of it's construction, boards from old box cars that probably easily would have dated to the 30s and 40s that had so much dirt and grime on them from the years, that we never knew they were in there until we had torn down the garage and were dismantling the framing.

Tim Barney


Wartime Traffic

Bill Welch
 

The 1944 Fruit Growers Express Annual Report noted that the year had
witnessed still larger quantities of ice necessary and the
commensurate rising dollar figure for purchasing ice and
recapitulated the past five years.

1940 $2,070,211
1941 $2,798,521
1942 $4,076,034
1943 $7,796,760
1944 $11,406,047

Bill Welch


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Jack Burgess
 

Richard mentioned
<There is abundant photographic evidence that (1) steam era freight cars
<were dirty and weathered roughly proportional to how long it had been
<since they were repainted, (2) repainting was infrequent - seldom more
<than every ten years or so and often much longer than that, and (3) cars
<that had not been repainted for a long time were seriously faded and
<filthy owing not only to weathering but to the grime continually
<deposited on them from steam locomotive stacks and the mills and
<factories adjacent to rail lines and freight yards. I think only those
<who experienced it first hand can imagine how dirty railroads were in
<the '30s-'40s-early '50s. Heavy weathering on at least some cars is far
<from "a grievous error," as Armand claims; in fact it's an essential
<element of realism. Sorry, but this fact is so well documented that it
<simply is not open to discussion.
<
<Richard Hendrickson

I seem to recall that you previously stated the same general idea during a
clinic I attended but qualified it to the demands on the railroad industry
by WWII which makes sense. But I model 1939 and the few color photos that I
have of mixed trains (circa 1943) don't show heavy weathering. It is
important to note that foreign freight cars on the YV tended to be western
roads...SP, ATSF, GN, NP, etc. So, was this heavy weathering a more
pronounced with eastern roads (likely in my mind) and also more pronounced
as the war dragged on for a couple more years?

Jack Burgess


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 12, 2013, at 2:16 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@signaturepress.com> wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:
For what it's worth,I believe the most grievous error a modeler can make is to over do weathering.My taste lean more to subtle weathering.An overly weathered car will stand out as much as a brightly colored car.Visitors will remember it.A technique that I favor is to star with the basic color and go from there.Others might favor mixing a diluted tone.I do not profess to be an expert on weathering ,but feel strongly that it is a matter of individual taste.After all it is Your model and as long as you are satisfied with it that's really all that matters.
Richard Hendrickson may chime in here, as he believes, on considerable photographic evidence, that it is difficult to over-weather steam era freight cars. But I would disagree with the idea that as long as YOU like it, it's okay. Um, no. On this topic I like to quote Tony Koester's comment, that if you are really interested in model RAILROADING, you try to duplicate aspects of real world railroads. (Otherwise you are just having fun with train models.) Certainly an entire steam-era freight car fleet which is uniformly and lightly weathered cannot be said to duplicate reality.
As Armand says, it's true that ONE severely weathered car will stand out among lightly weathered or unweathered ones. I believe that instead, there should be a gradation, from almost new cars to ones on which it is hard to read the lettering, with a range of cars weathered everywhere in between.
Of course I agree with Armand that weathering, like so much else, is a matter of individual taste, and that we all satisfy primarily ourselves, at the end of the day. But to me, that does NOT mean that whatever you choose to do is equally realistic.
No argument that Armand (and others) are entitled to please themselves in this regard. That is, as long as they don't claim to be prototype modelers.

As Tony aptly says, "an entire steam-era freight car fleet which is uniformly and lightly weathered cannot be said to duplicate reality."

There is abundant photographic evidence that (1) steam era freight cars were dirty and weathered roughly proportional to how long it had been since they were repainted, (2) repainting was infrequent - seldom more than every ten years or so and often much longer than that, and (3) cars that had not been repainted for a long time were seriously faded and filthy owing not only to weathering but to the grime continually deposited on them from steam locomotive stacks and the mills and factories adjacent to rail lines and freight yards. I think only those who experienced it first hand can imagine how dirty railroads were in the '30s-'40s-early '50s. Heavy weathering on at least some cars is far from "a grievous error," as Armand claims; in fact it's an essential element of realism. Sorry, but this fact is so well documented that it simply is not open to discussion.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Weathering freight cars

John
 

I've melted the roofs of a couple of PRR passenger cars out in the sun here in Florida (I just wanted to dry them) after painting them flat black. The Florida sun does wonders for drying brass after painting, however.

-- John

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gene" <bierglaeser@...> wrote:

My son (who models the DM&IR but I love him anyway) is considering testing whether leaving freight cars out in the sun will "weather" them. Has anyone tried this?
Gene Green


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Douglas Harding
 

Gene, I'm not sure your son will get the results he seeks. Winter's north of
Duluth are far different from your location in Belen NM. Not near as much
sun fade in Duluth either.



Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Armand Premo
 

Not to belabor the point ,the key phrase is that you are satisfied.Most of us do not have access to photos of every car we build.First hand information of steam era freight cars appear in various publications but this not readily available to all.As said, I_ prefer subtle weathering as opposed to heavy weathering.Do I have any heavily weathered cars?I do,however they represent a small percentage of my roster as do unweathered or like new cars.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: :[STMFC] Weathering freight cars



Armand Premo wrote:
> For what it's worth,I believe the most grievous error a modeler can make is to over do weathering.My taste lean more to subtle weathering.An overly weathered car will stand out as much as a brightly colored car.Visitors will remember it.A technique that I favor is to star with the basic color and go from there.Others might favor mixing a diluted tone.I do not profess to be an expert on weathering ,but feel strongly that it is a matter of individual taste.After all it is Your model and as long as you are satisfied with it that's really all that matters.
>

Richard Hendrickson may chime in here, as he believes, on considerable photographic evidence, that it is difficult to over-weather steam era freight cars. But I would disagree with the idea that as long as YOU like it, it's okay. Um, no. On this topic I like to quote Tony Koester's comment, that if you are really interested in model RAILROADING, you try to duplicate aspects of real world railroads. (Otherwise you are just having fun with train models.) Certainly an entire steam-era freight car fleet which is uniformly and lightly weathered cannot be said to duplicate reality.
As Armand says, it's true that ONE severely weathered car will stand out among lightly weathered or unweathered ones. I believe that instead, there should be a gradation, from almost new cars to ones on which it is hard to read the lettering, with a range of cars weathered everywhere in between.
Of course I agree with Armand that weathering, like so much else, is a matter of individual taste, and that we all satisfy primarily ourselves, at the end of the day. But to me, that does NOT mean that whatever you choose to do is equally realistic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Tony Thompson
 

Armand Premo wrote:
For what it's worth,I believe the most grievous error a modeler can make is to over do weathering.My taste lean more to subtle weathering.An overly weathered car will stand out as much as a brightly colored car.Visitors will remember it.A technique that I favor is to star with the basic color and go from there.Others might favor mixing a diluted tone.I do not profess to be an expert on weathering ,but feel strongly that it is a matter of individual taste.After all it is Your model and as long as you are satisfied with it that's really all that matters.

Richard Hendrickson may chime in here, as he believes, on considerable photographic evidence, that it is difficult to over-weather steam era freight cars. But I would disagree with the idea that as long as YOU like it, it's okay. Um, no. On this topic I like to quote Tony Koester's comment, that if you are really interested in model RAILROADING, you try to duplicate aspects of real world railroads. (Otherwise you are just having fun with train models.) Certainly an entire steam-era freight car fleet which is uniformly and lightly weathered cannot be said to duplicate reality.
As Armand says, it's true that ONE severely weathered car will stand out among lightly weathered or unweathered ones. I believe that instead, there should be a gradation, from almost new cars to ones on which it is hard to read the lettering, with a range of cars weathered everywhere in between.
Of course I agree with Armand that weathering, like so much else, is a matter of individual taste, and that we all satisfy primarily ourselves, at the end of the day. But to me, that does NOT mean that whatever you choose to do is equally realistic.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Weathering freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tony;

Yes, funny that you mention it! Several of the gons and a flat that bowed nicely, were the ONLY ones I could save, and have become some of my favorite models as a result. Other cars were a loss...

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 3:22 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)



Gatwood, Elden wrote:
I did this inadvertently (Taking photos outside on a table...emergency phone call, you get the idea), but expect you may get the same result. Natural sunlight melted or warped every resin kit, and warped a number of the plastic kits. Some were repairable, others not.
Hope some of them were gondolas. Distortion COULD be your friend!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com <mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Weathering freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tony Thompson
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:
I did this inadvertently (Taking photos outside on a table...emergency phone call, you get the idea), but expect you may get the same result. Natural sunlight melted or warped every resin kit, and warped a number of the plastic kits. Some were repairable, others not.
Hope some of them were gondolas. Distortion COULD be your friend!

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Armand Premo
 

For what it's worth,I believe the most grievous error a modeler can make is to over do weathering.My taste lean more to subtle weathering.An overly weathered car will stand out as much as a brightly colored car.Visitors will remember it.A technique that I favor is to star with the basic color and go from there.Others might favor mixing a diluted tone.I do not profess to be an expert on weathering ,but feel strongly that it is a matter of individual taste.After all it is Your model and as long as you are satisfied with it that's really all that matters.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce F. Smith
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 2:08 PM
Subject: Re::[STMFC] Weathering freight cars



Gene,

Um yes, it certainly works to fade paint, if you have the time (several years at least to get a noticable fade). However, there are lots of other issues.

1) Today's model paint and yesteryear's prototype paints are very different beasts, so don't expect them to fade in the same direction as each other.
2) You have to expose all sides to the sun...
3) Weathering effects due to other things (rain, particulates, etc...) are not to scale and may look odd at best
4) The substrate of the model is very different from the prototype car and therefore the overall effect would likely not be the same at all. After all, on that plastic car, the rivets won't start rusting through the paint, now will they <G>?
5) Prototype cars were exposed to motion as well as different environments. A stationary model would not have these effects either.

Regards

Bruce

Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Jun 12, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Gene wrote:

My son (who models the DM&IR but I love him anyway) is considering testing whether leaving freight cars out in the sun will "weather" them. Has anyone tried this?
Gene Green


Re: : Weathering freight cars

Bruce Smith
 

Gene,

Um yes, it certainly works to fade paint, if you have the time (several years at least to get a noticable fade). However, there are lots of other issues.

1) Today's model paint and yesteryear's prototype paints are very different beasts, so don't expect them to fade in the same direction as each other.
2) You have to expose all sides to the sun...
3) Weathering effects due to other things (rain, particulates, etc...) are not to scale and may look odd at best
4) The substrate of the model is very different from the prototype car and therefore the overall effect would likely not be the same at all. After all, on that plastic car, the rivets won't start rusting through the paint, now will they <G>?
5) Prototype cars were exposed to motion as well as different environments. A stationary model would not have these effects either.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

__

/ &#92;

__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________

|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |

| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||

|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|

| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Jun 12, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Gene wrote:

My son (who models the DM&IR but I love him anyway) is considering testing whether leaving freight cars out in the sun will "weather" them. Has anyone tried this?
Gene Green


Re: Weathering freight cars (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gene;

I did this inadvertently (Taking photos outside on a table...emergency phone call, you get the idea), but expect you may get the same result. Natural sunlight melted or warped every resin kit, and warped a number of the plastic kits. Some were repairable, others not.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:56 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Weathering freight cars



My son (who models the DM&IR but I love him anyway) is considering testing whether leaving freight cars out in the sun will "weather" them. Has anyone tried this?
Gene Green





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

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