Date   

CWSX 4401 -- what is it? a refrigerated tank car?

Tim O'Connor
 

Soo Line, leased to Chippewa Springs?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/111117423633

Tim O'


Re: Spotting features

Greg Martin
 

Keith,

In context:
-
-
In a message Keith Kempster writes:


"Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand
there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock
(I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door, etc)."
-
-
Let's stop for just a moment and remind us what era you are planning to
model that allows us to help you. I think I saw that you like the Santa Fe and
what era do you favor, if like Richard Hendrickson and his 1947 era it
put the dos and don'ts into perspective. Later and some doors open while
others close. Think in terms of availability and your personal skill level,
you haven't shared that either. I am not knocking you but just trying to help
us help you. Region make a difference as well, Santa Fe ~ Chicago vs.
Santa Fe ~ San Diego things change as California was growing rapidly and many
if not most products were produced in the east and shipped west and this
would change in the eras beyond this list.
-
-
"I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors."
-
-
Subtle changes in freight car appliances change/improved over the years so
your era may never have experienced a Santa Fe Pullman Standard PS-1
40-foot boxcar or 50-foot for that mater so some of the differences in roof
panels and side sheathing, underframes and door may be less of a concern. If so
you choice of ready to run kits might just be more limiting and thus you
may have to buy more resin kits or scratch-bash more Styrene kits. The Santa
Fe had a class of cars with 4/4 dreadnaught ends on with diagonal panel
roof that were on the property much later than one would expect in the 1940's
a rather rare combination, but I photographed a sample of the car in work
service in the 1990's just because it was so rare. You might consider
scratch-bashing a Santa Fe BX-28 or BX-31 class cars, I am considering these
for a future SHAKE_N_TAKE project in Cocoa Beach, it shouldn't be much of a
challenge for my skill level.
-
-
" I even have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of
information."
-
-
I always say FEED YOUR HEAD!
-
-
"Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to discriminate
whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL"

Unfortunately no, but there is always this list to ask before you jump in.
Another good source is Train Life and a few well placed evenings with your
laptop or your tablet on your lap in the family room on the couch with
your shoes off and your feet up with a note pad and plenty of sharp pencils,
perhaps this winter... wait, what was I thinking you live in Florida... 3^)
No cold nights.

Research then Model and research more then model twice as much but never
stop modeling.

Greg Martin


Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean


Re: Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

WaltGCox@...
 

I don't know why yahoo keeps trimming the link but you could type the whole
link or just canadianbranchline.com then select topics, then US Boxcars.

In a message dated 7/16/2013 10:31:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
WaltGCox@... writes:




It got trimmed again. Try using this.

http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm
____________________________________
From: _WaltGCox@... (mailto:WaltGCox@...)
Reply-to: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Sent: 7/16/2013 10:18:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Fwd: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Here's the whole link
_http://www.canadianbranchline.com._ (http://www.canadianbranchline.com./)
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm
____________________________________
From: __WaltGCox@... (mailto:_WaltGCox@...) _
(mailto:_WaltGCox@... (mailto:WaltGCox@...) )
Reply-to: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
To: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
Sent: 7/16/2013 10:04:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Keith,
Here is a link to a topic on the canadianbranchline.com web site which got
me started on my off-line cars. The numbers wouldn't work for Jacksonville
but the underlying method may help you get started. To a lesser extent I
had to make changes for the Montreal area. Once I got Ted Culotta's Steam
era
box car reference manual I was able to start matching car types to
roadnames.( I'm not quite finished.)
Walt Cox
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm

In a message dated 7/16/2013 1:29:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
___elden.j.gatwood@...
(mailto:__elden.j.gatwood@...) _ (mailto:__elden.j.gatwood@...
(mailto:_elden.j.gatwood@...) )
_ (mailto:__elden.j.gatwood@...
(mailto:_elden.j.gatwood@...) _
(mailto:_elden.j.gatwood@...
(mailto:elden.j.gatwood@...) ) )
writes:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You brought up another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and that
is "how many of those other guys' cars..." do I need?

I sat down several years ago, with all the photo books, yard photos, and
other resources I could find, and counted whose cars I saw, what classes,
what schemes, and other things like condition, and made a big list. I then
boiled that down to a "I need what" list, which I used to populate a
database. Since that time I have received some more photos, which pretty
much
supported what I came up with earlier. So, I didn't really need ratios or
"rules", as it turned out. I am lucky; a lot of guys I know don't have
enough
info for the road they model.

Thank goodness for all these great resources we have to do research with!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: ____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
[mailto:____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) ) ] On Behalf Of
Armand
Premo
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:58 PM
To: ____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far
as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have
about
all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a
proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those
roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these
railroads
,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put
my
personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: ____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to
what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors,
roof,
running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR,
manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the
classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone
else's, too,
so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider
are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype
literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements,
etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: ____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:____STMFC@...
(mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: ____STMFC@... (mailto:___STMFC@...) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) ) _
(mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand
there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock
(I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door,
etc).
I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I
even
have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of
information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to
discriminate
whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a
picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

WaltGCox@...
 

It got trimmed again. Try using this.

http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm
____________________________________
From: WaltGCox@...
Reply-to: STMFC@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/16/2013 10:18:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Fwd: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)





Here's the whole link
http://www.canadianbranchline.com.
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm
____________________________________
From: _WaltGCox@... (mailto:WaltGCox@...)
Reply-to: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Sent: 7/16/2013 10:04:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Keith,
Here is a link to a topic on the canadianbranchline.com web site which got
me started on my off-line cars. The numbers wouldn't work for Jacksonville
but the underlying method may help you get started. To a lesser extent I
had to make changes for the Montreal area. Once I got Ted Culotta's Steam
era
box car reference manual I was able to start matching car types to
roadnames.( I'm not quite finished.)
Walt Cox
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm

In a message dated 7/16/2013 1:29:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
__elden.j.gatwood@... (mailto:_elden.j.gatwood@...)
_ (mailto:_elden.j.gatwood@...
(mailto:elden.j.gatwood@...) )
writes:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You brought up another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and that
is "how many of those other guys' cars..." do I need?

I sat down several years ago, with all the photo books, yard photos, and
other resources I could find, and counted whose cars I saw, what classes,
what schemes, and other things like condition, and made a big list. I then
boiled that down to a "I need what" list, which I used to populate a
database. Since that time I have received some more photos, which pretty
much
supported what I came up with earlier. So, I didn't really need ratios or
"rules", as it turned out. I am lucky; a lot of guys I know don't have
enough
info for the road they model.

Thank goodness for all these great resources we have to do research with!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: ___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
[mailto:___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ) ] On Behalf Of
Armand
Premo
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:58 PM
To: ___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far
as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have
about
all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a
proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those
roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these
railroads
,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put
my
personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: ___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to
what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors,
roof,
running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR,
manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the
classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone
else's, too,
so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider
are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype
literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements,
etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: ___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:___STMFC@...
(mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: ___STMFC@... (mailto:__STMFC@...) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) ) _
(mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand
there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock
(I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door,
etc).
I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I
even
have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of
information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to
discriminate
whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a
picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

WaltGCox@...
 

Here's the whole link
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm


____________________________________
From: WaltGCox@...
Reply-to: STMFC@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: 7/16/2013 10:04:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)





Keith,
Here is a link to a topic on the canadianbranchline.com web site which got
me started on my off-line cars. The numbers wouldn't work for Jacksonville
but the underlying method may help you get started. To a lesser extent I
had to make changes for the Montreal area. Once I got Ted Culotta's Steam
era
box car reference manual I was able to start matching car types to
roadnames.( I'm not quite finished.)
Walt Cox
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm


In a message dated 7/16/2013 1:29:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_elden.j.gatwood@... (mailto:elden.j.gatwood@...)
writes:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You brought up another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and that
is "how many of those other guys' cars..." do I need?

I sat down several years ago, with all the photo books, yard photos, and
other resources I could find, and counted whose cars I saw, what classes,
what schemes, and other things like condition, and made a big list. I then
boiled that down to a "I need what" list, which I used to populate a
database. Since that time I have received some more photos, which pretty
much
supported what I came up with earlier. So, I didn't really need ratios or
"rules", as it turned out. I am lucky; a lot of guys I know don't have
enough
info for the road they model.

Thank goodness for all these great resources we have to do research with!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
[mailto:__STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ) ] On Behalf Of
Armand
Premo
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:58 PM
To: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far
as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have
about
all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a
proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those
roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these
railroads
,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put
my
personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to
what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors,
roof,
running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR,
manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the
classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone
else's, too,
so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider
are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype
literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements,
etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:__STMFC@...
(mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: __STMFC@... (mailto:_STMFC@...) _
(mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) )
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand
there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock
(I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door,
etc).
I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I
even
have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of
information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to
discriminate
whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a
picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

WaltGCox@...
 

Keith,
Here is a link to a topic on the canadianbranchline.com web site which got
me started on my off-line cars. The numbers wouldn't work for Jacksonville
but the underlying method may help you get started. To a lesser extent I
had to make changes for the Montreal area. Once I got Ted Culotta's Steam era
box car reference manual I was able to start matching car types to
roadnames.( I'm not quite finished.)
Walt Cox
http://www.canadianbranchline.com/US%2040'%20Boxcars.htm

In a message dated 7/16/2013 1:29:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
elden.j.gatwood@... writes:




Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You brought up another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and that
is "how many of those other guys' cars..." do I need?

I sat down several years ago, with all the photo books, yard photos, and
other resources I could find, and counted whose cars I saw, what classes,
what schemes, and other things like condition, and made a big list. I then
boiled that down to a "I need what" list, which I used to populate a
database. Since that time I have received some more photos, which pretty much
supported what I came up with earlier. So, I didn't really need ratios or
"rules", as it turned out. I am lucky; a lot of guys I know don't have enough
info for the road they model.

Thank goodness for all these great resources we have to do research with!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
[mailto:_STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...) ] On Behalf Of Armand
Premo
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:58 PM
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far
as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have about
all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a
proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those
roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these railroads
,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put my
personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to
what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors, roof,
running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR,
manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the
classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone else's, too,
so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider
are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype
literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements, etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:_STMFC@...
(mailto:STMFC@...) <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: _STMFC@... (mailto:STMFC@...)
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand
there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock
(I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door, etc).
I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I even
have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of
information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to discriminate
whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Tony Thompson
 

Ben Hom wrote:
Tony Thompson wrote:
(back in late 1943, the Liberty ship program was renamed Victory ships)

Not quite true - they were two different ship programs. The Liberty Ships owed much to legacy technology, particularly the use of 2500 HP triple expansion reciprocating engines for reliability as well as to free production of turbines and reduction gears for warships. Production of Liberty Ships continued through the end of the war. The Victory Ships were an evolutionary design of the Liberty with structural improvements, a finer hull form, and most importantly, 6000 or 8500 HP steam turbines, resulting in a faster ship.
Yes, I know the ships were different. We have an operating Liberty ship here in the Bay Area, the Jeremiah O'Brien, and a Victory ship mostly restored at the shipyard National Monument in Richmond, the Red Oak Victory. I have been on board both, and they are fairly different, not only in size. I only meant that the name of the crash program of shipbuilding was changed in a revealing way, but obviously did not say so clearly.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Benjamin Hom
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
(back in late 1943, the Liberty ship program was renamed Victory ships)
 
Not quite true - they were two different ship programs.  The Liberty Ships owed much to legacy technology, particularly the use of 2500 HP triple expansion reciprocating engines for reliability as well as to free production of turbines and reduction gears for warships.  Production of Liberty Ships continued through the end of the war.  The Victory Ships were an evolutionary design of the Liberty with structural improvements, a finer hull form, and most importantly, 6000 or 8500 HP steam turbines, resulting in a faster ship.
 
 
Ben Hom  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: amazing freight house

Brian <cornbeltroute@...>
 

I'm a misanthrope, but even so, I'm often awed by the achievements of our species. These photos, the construction of monstrous structures, rammed that emotion home, for me. Much enjoyed the photos, the feeling of a city flowering, reaching upward (unlike today, when new growth replaces old).

And, the freight house was nifty, too!

-Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa


Re: Sinclair billboard tank cars

switchengines <jrs060@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Jonathan Pansius <jonpanxyz@...> wrote:

I have a photo copy of a page of photos from the Oil and Gas Journal from the late 1920s showing a string of Sinclair insulated tank cars at a natural gasoline loading rack.  The jackets of the cars are in aluminum paint with dark lettering, probably black but I have seen green, blue or red  lettering register similarly in these somewhat murky trade journal photos.  As Richard said, this did not last long as far as I can tell, I have only seen this in photos and ads from the 1920s.  

Jonathan, I can tell you for sure that the Insulated Sinclair 10k cars with the light colored
jacketing and dark lettering did last into the 1940s. I have seen a photo of a C&NW way-
freight north of Chicago taken in the year 1940 that has one of the cars present in the
train close to the engine, and it's in the light colored scheme, so it did last much long than
you think.

Jerry Stewart


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
 

For the GN I understand it was more of a question of buying wood, sometimes from railroad owned lands and shipping the wood products from the West to car builders in central USA cost less than buying steel and paying eastern roads for shipping the steel to the car builders.

Staffan Ehnbom

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 8:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years




I can't disagree with you Dennis, but I do know that NP and GN both
ordered wood sheathed, modern AAR box cars in the late 1930's when there
was no shortage of steel. Also both roads ordered new cars with wood
running boards until the rules compelled them to change. When your
largest and most profitable customers are sawmills and other forest
product manufacturers, it has a certain influence...

Tim O'Connor

>I'm going to come down on the exact opposite side of this issue from Tim; I doubt there was a significant price difference between a AAR standard steel boxcar and a war emergency car; perhaps Ed Hawkins has some figures. And, I doubt that any of the roads actually wanted war emergency cars as their first choice. Remember, the last dozen or so years had been an exceedingly depressed economy, where the railroads had purchased very little in the way of new equipment. Now that revenue was flowing in again, the managers knew they needed to modernize their fleets; if the economy went soft after the war ended, they knew they had many, many old worn out cars that were candidates for retirement. None of the new cars were going to be sitting idle, so why would they want to purchase more of the same junk they wanted to get rid of?
>
>I suspect, without actually having any data to look at, that most every order placed early in the war was for all steel cars. As the limited production caught up with each order, the road was notified that while production time was available, steel wasn't, so they were going to have to take the war emergency version. I suspect each road them made a decision; those without dire need for equipment decided to pass and canceled the order, opening production time for the next order in line. Those who were in dire need of more cars accepted them, even thought they weren't what they wanted; all were mindful not to allow conditions to deteriorate to the point they had during the last war, where the industry was nationalized and had a lot of equipment they didn't want and couldn't pay for forced on them.
>
>Dennis Storzek


Sunshine - 2 more added to list

Jim Hayes
 

I just tagged 2 more as NOT AVAILABLE. I've now tagged 101 that way.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

Sunshinekits.com


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Tim O'Connor
 

I can't disagree with you Dennis, but I do know that NP and GN both
ordered wood sheathed, modern AAR box cars in the late 1930's when there
was no shortage of steel. Also both roads ordered new cars with wood
running boards until the rules compelled them to change. When your
largest and most profitable customers are sawmills and other forest
product manufacturers, it has a certain influence...

Tim O'Connor

I'm going to come down on the exact opposite side of this issue from Tim; I doubt there was a significant price difference between a AAR standard steel boxcar and a war emergency car; perhaps Ed Hawkins has some figures. And, I doubt that any of the roads actually wanted war emergency cars as their first choice. Remember, the last dozen or so years had been an exceedingly depressed economy, where the railroads had purchased very little in the way of new equipment. Now that revenue was flowing in again, the managers knew they needed to modernize their fleets; if the economy went soft after the war ended, they knew they had many, many old worn out cars that were candidates for retirement. None of the new cars were going to be sitting idle, so why would they want to purchase more of the same junk they wanted to get rid of?

I suspect, without actually having any data to look at, that most every order placed early in the war was for all steel cars. As the limited production caught up with each order, the road was notified that while production time was available, steel wasn't, so they were going to have to take the war emergency version. I suspect each road them made a decision; those without dire need for equipment decided to pass and canceled the order, opening production time for the next order in line. Those who were in dire need of more cars accepted them, even thought they weren't what they wanted; all were mindful not to allow conditions to deteriorate to the point they had during the last war, where the industry was nationalized and had a lot of equipment they didn't want and couldn't pay for forced on them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

soolinehistory <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Ray

War production had a steep "ramp up" -- it took several years to
reach peak production capacity, and that was in 1944-1945. No doubt
that steel that may not have been available in early 1944, could
have been available in sufficient quantities by later 1944.

Also I think wood was actually less expensive -- Railroads must have
suspected that traffic would drop steeply after the end of the war so
why spend the extra money for cars that would soon be surplus?

Tim O'Connor
I'm going to come down on the exact opposite side of this issue from Tim; I doubt there was a significant price difference between a AAR standard steel boxcar and a war emergency car; perhaps Ed Hawkins has some figures. And, I doubt that any of the roads actually wanted war emergency cars as their first choice. Remember, the last dozen or so years had been an exceedingly depressed economy, where the railroads had purchased very little in the way of new equipment. Now that revenue was flowing in again, the managers knew they needed to modernize their fleets; if the economy went soft after the war ended, they knew they had many, many old worn out cars that were candidates for retirement. None of the new cars were going to be sitting idle, so why would they want to purchase more of the same junk they wanted to get rid of?

I suspect, without actually having any data to look at, that most every order placed early in the war was for all steel cars. As the limited production caught up with each order, the road was notified that while production time was available, steel wasn't, so they were going to have to take the war emergency version. I suspect each road them made a decision; those without dire need for equipment decided to pass and canceled the order, opening production time for the next order in line. Those who were in dire need of more cars accepted them, even thought they weren't what they wanted; all were mindful not to allow conditions to deteriorate to the point they had during the last war, where the industry was nationalized and had a lot of equipment they didn't want and couldn't pay for forced on them.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Tony Thompson
 

Todd Horton wrote:
I ran across something that caught my interest. During the WWII era there were boxcars produced using both steel and wood siding. The "war emergency" boxcars that I was interested in were single sheathed 40' cars built in 1944. It had never dawned on me that there were steel side cars being produced during this same year. What was the reason for the "war emergency" cars being built with wood sides vs. steel cars being built the same year? I would have assumed the war production board (WPB) would have had a say so in the construction techniques during this era. The WPD wasn't dissolved until Nov 1945.
There is no question that steel supplies were considerably better in the course of 1944, as a number of things (not only railroads) point that way. But remember the WPB would okay orders even in the shortage for anything regarded as a critical need, such as steam and diesel locomotives for impacted roads. They approved an order of all-steel reefers for PFE at a time when a steel boxcar order for SP was turned down (actually, "put on hold," which at the time usually meant, "don't call us, we'll call you"). By late 1944, all kinds of car orders were being approved, and of course it was no secret the war was on the way to being won (back in late 1943, the Liberty ship program was renamed Victory ships), so the sense of crisis was definitely past. Military activity continued at a high level (Normandy was in June), but both in Europe and the Pacific, the Allies were on the offensive and their opponents definitely in retreat.

PFE designed its R-40-20 class in late 1943 with WPB approval, and drawings were completed in January 1944. Paperwork needed for authority to place the order held up placement until May, but WPB approval was granted, subject to steel availability. It took the carbuilder awhile to assemble materials, and construction began in the fall.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Armand;

You brought up another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and that is "how many of those other guys' cars..." do I need?

I sat down several years ago, with all the photo books, yard photos, and other resources I could find, and counted whose cars I saw, what classes, what schemes, and other things like condition, and made a big list. I then boiled that down to a "I need what" list, which I used to populate a database. Since that time I have received some more photos, which pretty much supported what I came up with earlier. So, I didn't really need ratios or "rules", as it turned out. I am lucky; a lot of guys I know don't have enough info for the road they model.

Thank goodness for all these great resources we have to do research with!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Armand Premo
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 12:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)



Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have about all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these railroads ,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put my personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors, roof, running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR, manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone else's, too, so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements, etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock (I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door, etc). I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I even have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to discriminate whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)

Armand Premo
 

Elden,We can really get deeply involved into modeling any one road as far as car selection is concerned.Then there is that word,"ratios".I have about all the cars I need for the roads that I model.My problem right now is a proper representation of other roads that were commonly seen on those roads.I might add that I may not be especially fond of some of these railroads ,or for that matter their cars,but for the sake of realism I have to put my personal biases aside to achieve some semblance of realism.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Spotting features (UNCLASSIFIED)



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Keith;

I am not totally sure what you are getting at here, but my own reply to what I think you want is: Everything counts - ends, side panels, doors, roof, running board, brake manufacturer and arrangement, trucks, RR, manufacturer, color, lettering pattern, era, materials used...

As a modeler of a specific RR, I also had to get educated on all the classes appropriate for my era, and learn a good bit about everyone else's, too, so as to model a fairly accurate fleet.

The Railroad Prototype Cyclopedia(s) put out by Ed Hawkins and Pat Wider are also a fantastic source of information, as are ORERs, prototype literature, and RR-produced correspondence and plans/general arrangements, etc.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of hvyweight41
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 10:35 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Spotting features

Hi all-
I have seen numerous posts which discuss spotting features. I understand there are the basic differences between types and sizes of rolling stock (I.E. box versus hopper, 40 versus 50 foot, single versus double door, etc). I've read various discussions on ends, roofs, underframes and doors. I even have two of Ted Culotta's freight car handbooks with a wealth of information. Is there a consensus on the best spotting features to discriminate whether a model is correct for a given prototype or even to identify a picture?
Thanks,
Keith Kempster
Jacksonville, FL

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Boxcar Production During the WWII Years

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jul 16, 2013, at 5:58 AM, Todd Horton wrote:

I ran across something that caught my interest. During the WWII era
there were boxcars produced using both steel and wood siding. The "war
emergency" boxcars that I was interested in were single sheathed 40'
cars built in 1944. It had never dawned on me that there were steel
side cars being produced during this same year. What was the reason
for the "war emergency" cars being built with wood sides vs. steel
cars being built the same year? I would have assumed the war
production board (WPB) would have had a say so in the construction
techniques during this era. The WPD wasn't dissolved until Nov 1945.
Todd,
Each order of composite or steel cars built during this period of 1942,
1943, and into 1944 likely has it's own story depending on the overall
timing, the builder's capabilities at the time, the availability of
steel, and the actions & decisions of the WPB. One factor was during
this time a substantial portion of some car builder's facilities were
revamped to produce military equipment, so freight car production was
affected. During this time, numerous freight car orders were simply
cancelled.

An example for which I have some data is the CG order for 100 steel box
cars placed Feb. 13, 1942, with ACF and assigned lot 2491. Yet we know
that lot 2491 was built as emergency composite box cars. The builder's
photo of 41056 (41000-41099) was dated 2-44, a full two years after the
order was placed.

The cars were intended to be all-steel 1937 AAR box cars. An ACF
general arrangement drawing number 61-3114, dated April 1942, was
generated fairly quickly for lot 2491 and shows an all-steel car.
However, the drawing wasn't used as production of all-steel cars wasn't
approved. It wasn't until 1-1/2 years later when a new general
arrangement drawing number 61-5414 was generated on 10/20/43 along with
a number of other drawings dated in October 1943 for the side
construction and various other steel parts for emergency composite box
cars. A lettering drawing was dated 11/18/43. Construction of the cars
was completed a few months later with delivery in early 1944.

The exact reasons for the delay isn't known, however, correspondence
between ACF and CG would help to define the specific dates and reasons
why decisions were made if that correspondence could be retrieved.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Sunshine - a couple more

Jim Hayes
 

I have just marked 21.29 & 21.30 as UNAVAILABLE 2013 on my Alltime list.
Thanks Cass.

Jim Hayes
Portland Oregon

sunshinekits.com


Pierce Petroleum tank car

Jonathan Pansius
 

Richard, thank you very much for the photo you posted.  Here is a scan of what I have, from the Frisco employees magazine collection of the Springfield library (another good place to waste your time, um, doing research; well there is a lot of good info there).  As I said, the lack of data makes me suspicious, but I post it for what it's worth.

Jon Pansius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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