I think the greying of model railroaders in general fueled the shift from kits to RTR.

Many modelers end up with a closet full of kits; they then progress to buying less and spending more for each item. RTR is preferable to kits which may never get built or can't be built in the first place.You can put RTR on your layout or on a shelf. Kits stay in the box forever.

Together, this group has enough unbuilt kits to stock several hobby shops.

Kits have always been slow movers - if the buffs don't buy them all up they can stick around hobby shops for years.

Hobbies for men never sold anything more complicated than blue box screw driver kits. The owner knew how to make money.

We are lame ducks for (1) being interested in the steam era & (2) liking to build models. Both interests seem to be dying out.

Great! I've been waiting for the "original scheme" WM gondola, so ordered one right away! Thanks.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Rossiter, Mark W wrote:

The cars were essentially a Pullman Green color and by the late 40's the cars the lettering would have been 'Deluxe Gold', which is a yellow color, not gold as in 'gold leaf'.

Common misconception, that "Dulux Gold" (correct spelling) is the name of a shade of gold color. It's just a DuPont paint line. There was Dulux Black, Dulux Socony Red, etc. etc. Yes, Dulux Gold is a specific shade of gold color, but no, it doesn't describe anything other than a particular DuPont paint.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Gene there is a precedent. Intermountain produced EMD Blomberg trucks
for their F units with separate journal boxes. However, since most of
the models are RTR, they don't bother to use the correct journals for
each prototype! (Even though both journal styles are on the sprue.)
Athearn didn't bother about it for their Highliner/Genesis chassis.

My guess is it's not that expensive, but 99.8% of modelers simply do
not care.

Tim O'Connor

We can ride out hobby horse in many directions, I believe.

Go to eBay. There are kits galore. My personal favorites are those composed of wood, cardboard, pot metal and so on but other stuff is listed as well. I buy them to build them for the fun of it although many will never be run.

My main interest is switching problems. I cut my teeth on John Allen's Timesavers in the mid-1970s. (I literally had the two that survived the fire and took them to PCR conventions and ran the switching contest.) I'm pretty sure I could be happy with blocks of wood that have trucks and couplers attached to the bottom and reporting marks on top written with a felt tip pen as long as I could do some switching - with a light blue Thomas locomotive.

I buy both kits (to the extent they are available) and RTR without regard to whether or not they are kits. What I am buying is a representation a prototype I feel fits my layout.

I catch myself deploring the amount of time and resources some manufacturers "waste" on post-1950 models. Then I remind myself that the purchasers of the modern stuff are most likely also buying track and scenery items which helps keep the price of these items down for me or, if not that, at least more readily available for me.

How many manufacturers were producing injection molded plastic models in 1954 when I entered the hobby? How many now?

When I entered the hobby it took me more than 3 hours to earn the price of an Athearn or Varney rattle-the-box kit. It now takes me an hour to earn the price of a nice RTR freight car kit. Continuing the cost analogy, look at the prices of the electronic apparatus teens have and carry around today. They could afford trains if they wanted to.

All the foregoing is merely my opinion. YMMV. But I'm having fun!

Gene Green

I don't think cost is that much of a concern/more a priority for younger people/kids.I have a 6th grader and its amazing how all his friends get 1 or 3 video games a month ($20-$45 ea.)plus the $80 - $600 system that is obsolete at least once a year.Reno is by no means a high paying area.
 They have more money than I do to spend on a hobby.
 Alan
                


________________________________
From: Dan L. Merkel <danmerkel@...>
To: STMFC@...
My fear is that fewer and fewer people will take up the hobby. It used to be that one could get a few good, simple Blue Box kits, a decent locomotive and some track for well under the price of some of today's higher end RTR offerings. Where does a younger person get that kind of money? If I had to start out today, I'd probably not be able to afford the hobby either.  
---------------------------------
Dan L. Merkel
http://thecourier.typepad.com/alongtherightofway/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dan, I think it is the wants and needs of the purchaser. Taking the
stance that it's all "instant gratification" misses the point. Many people are
not interested in the building aspect of the hobby. They want trains to
run, not hours spent building kits. That is a perfectly valid and legitimate
point. Their satisfaction does not come from building of models, but
running them. That seems the way the hobby is trending. If the hobby was rife
with kit builders, the manufacturers would respond in kind, but that is not
the case.

Although the costs have definitely changed, note that many of the new
plastic steam locomotives are now equivalent in price to what the same
locomotive in brass was 25 years ago. We can't look at past prices and determine
that today's prices run people off. What older modelers think when they see
a model listed at $35-40 is different than what a younger modeler sees.
We long for gasoline at 25 cents a gallon, but a 30 something has never seen
that.

When I look at the hobby magazines, I see a huge hobby with a multitude of
manufacturers, and models we could only dream about 25 years ago. Compare
the time it took Athearn to get an SD40 on the market (20+years?) compared
to the time it has taken to get an ES44AC on the market (less than five?),
and what about the detail and performance differences? Sorry for the modern
diesel references, but it makes the point. There is probably no doubt that
the number of model railroaders has shrunk, but what we can get now to
what was available in the past is astounding.

Jerry Michels

Sorry, I forgot about Yahoo stripping off photos. Anyone who wants to see them can contact me off list. – Andy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank Richard (and Dave, who contacted me off list),
I should have been more clear in my original post. (I knew what I was thinking and figured you guys would all know, too. We're all clairvoyant, right?)

Using ASF A-3s and Barber S-2s as examples, would it be true that the only bolster that would fit the sideframe would have to come from the same manufacturer?

Although I didn't mention it, I was thinking in terms of the manufacturing of scale model trucks for freight cars. No doubt we have all experienced instances wherein the best available scale model truck in terms of sideframe for a particular car has the end of a truck bolster that doesn't match what we see in our prototype photo.

The same would be true of journal box lids but let's not go there now.

In later years the scale model truck manufacturer could most like be reasonably assured that a given sideframe would have only one truck bolster end visible on both prototype and model.

I'd like to see, in HO at least, scale model trucks where the bolster end and journal box lids are separate parts applied by the modeler to match what he or she sees in the photo of their prototype.

Wow! Wouldn't those be expensive!

Gene Green

Hi Rob,

I'm attaching photos of my painted and lettered Sunshine model, lettered with the kit decals. The lettering scheme is from photos in the kit instructions, and matches photos in Roger Hinman's book on MDT, the builder of the cars.

Good luck,

Andy

Mark

Dulux, not Deluxe. Dulux was a trademark name of Dupont.

Tim O'



The cars were essentially a Pullman Green color and by the late 40's the cars the lettering would have been 'Deluxe Gold', which is a yellow color, not gold as in 'gold leaf'. Champ used to make decals that would work pretty good for this car. I don't have the number for the decal set in front of me, but if no one else chimes in I can supply it when I get home.
Mark Rossiter

Hi Andy,

I agree completely. The Amarillo Railroad Museum used to routinely stock
kits and RTR models of the production runs we did, but after we discovered
that RTR sold about four to one over kits, and we had kits coming out our
ears compared to RTR, we stopped kits completely. It does reflect a New
Reality based on many factors. If nothing else, I suppose it may give the
resin kit manufacturers a larger market for their smaller runs.

Jerry Michels

[Forwarded from John Canfield. Photos pending approval. Please direct
inquiries to jcan2x @ hotmail.com]

Bob McGlone and I are pleased to announce our latest HO limited
edition kit offering - a 34' 4 side vent ventilated boxcar built by
the Ohio Falls Car Company and used by mostly southern railroads. We
have prototype photos for this basic car from Ohio Falls being used
by the Central of Georgia, Louisville Southern, and the Savannah
Americus & Montgomery. Railroads using virtually identical cars by
other builders were the St. Louis & San Francisco, Atlanta & West
Point, and the East Tennessee, Virginia & Georgia. We have also found
several other prototypes but, to our knowledge, no lettering is
available.

This kit was designed from plans for 1000 cars built for the Central
of Georgia RR around 1892. The plans were originally published in the
Railroad Gazette and later redrawn for Model Railroader. A ventilated
boxcar was a multi-purpose car designed to be used in place of
refrigerator cars to transport mainly produce requiring circulating
air to keep the contents cool while not requiring the use of ice for
very cold temperatures. To accomplish this, there are large barred
doors on the sides, 4 small slatted side vents [closable from inside
the car] on each side, and high barred end doors. However, when used
as a normal boxcar, the alternate solid side doors were closed, the
side vents closed from the inside, and the alternate solid doors slid
over the end openings. And, because of the end doors, the cars were
also suitable for lumber and rail lading.

Here are some specifics for the above mentioned railroads, thanks to
info from Cyril Durrenberger. As mentioned above, there are certainly
other railroads that used these cars but lettering is not available
for them:

O CofGa cars numbered 2001 – 3000 air brakes lettering numbered 2873
O SA&M cars numbered 3201 – 3500 air brakes lettering numbered
3500
O LS cars numbered 1020 - 1525 air brakes lettering numbered 1257
O Frisco cars numbered 7844 – 7943 air brakes lettering numbered 7853
O A&WP cars numbered 3100 – 3200 air brakes lettering numbered 3130
O ETV&G cars numbered 7101 – 8201 no air brakes lettering numbered
7186

We have very little information about the history of these cars
during their lifetime on the various railroads. In some cases this is
because several of the above railroads were quickly absorbed into
other larger systems: SA&M into the Seaboard in 1900; LS to Southern
in 1894; ETV&G to Southern in 1894. Being what these cars were
underneath, that is a basic 4 truss rod all wood boxcar, they likely
had a useful life through about 1910 or so. With the exception of the
ETV&G cars, all of them had air brakes when built.

Additionally, with a little extra work by the kit purchaser in the
area between the small side vents, this kit could also be used to
make a passable representation of Mobile & Ohio ventilated car #6909.

In the "Photos" section of this site under "1892 34' ventilated
boxcar HO scale kit", Pictures of this car are shown. The first bar
includes a C of GA car that Bob had built (but not from this kit); an
S&AM car Bob built from this kit; and an LS car that I made, also
from this kit. The second bar are of the other three sets of
lettering also available: Frisco, A&WP, and ETV&G. (For more about
lettering availability, read on.)

The kit is composed or resin castings from masters made by our
exacting modeler Bob McGlone including a one-piece body (with door
openings so the ventilated door can actually be "see through" and all
doors slide))and separate floor, solid doors, roofwalk, and end
doors; Bitter Creek ventilated doors and pedestal bars, Tahoe trucks,
Walthers Proto couplers, and detail parts by Wiseman, Tichy, Grandt
Line, and PSC along with wire, styrene, illustrated instructions, and
everything you need except glue and paint to complete this kit. For
the whimsical, we've also included a few watermelons and some
excelsior "straw" in case you want junk inside with your doors open
as show in the pic of my car.

As always, our kits come with lettering. In this case, we fortunately
had made arrangements with Art Griffin to purchase a quantity of
lettering decals for each of railroads listed above before he closed
his business through next fall. However, because of his hiatus, we
had to make some assumptions about how many decals of each of the
RR's to purchase. This also means that there are no number
variations available on the lettering - it is what it is.
Additionally, we can provide Clover House dry transfer lettering sets
for the CofGa and SA&M cars, plus the M&O car #6909. Note that once
the AG lettering sells out, it's gone until he re-opens in October
2014. So when you make your reservation, please indicate your first
choice of lettering and an alternate. When I reply to confirm your
reservation I'll be able to let you know if you've gotten your first
lettering preference - and if you're not then you can always cancel
the reservation. You can see illustrations of all this lettering on
Art Griffin's and Clover House's websites.

Kits are priced at $42 each plus postage and are sold by advance
reservation ONLY. Make a reservation by emailing me offline at
jcan2x@.... I will acknowledge your reservation (and be sure
to include your lettering choices..........for the dry transfers ,you
don't need an alternative second choice) but no payment is needed
until I let you know your kit is ready……normally within about a four
week timeframe depending on parts availability. Satisfaction
guaranteed and as always thanks for your continued interest in giving
us the opportunity to produce kits of these rare and unusual cars
that are not available anyplace else!


Our best regards,
John Canfield

According to Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #19, NP #28375-28749 had ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

Armand, you are indeed belaboring Andy's point. Bowser has decided
to quit making steam locos because they are too expensive and far too
difficult to build from kits for most modelers -- and because of the
great abundance of fine running steam loco models from China! Many of
the younger men at the train club buy RTR steam. I don't think steam
is less popular -- By unit sales it's probably far greater now than
it was 20 or 30 years ago. Your prediction of extinction is premature.

Tim O'Connor

Rob, Microscale makes a set in HO scale for NYC head end passenger cars (1937-1968). Catalogue # is 87-933. I'm guessing from you're description that you're model may be a former milk car converted to handle baggage/mail. This decal set should be what you need.

Paul De Luca
NYCSHS member
Hudson Division modeler circa 1951

It would be nice to know which cars had which. I have photos of
28151, 28198, 28318, 28757, 28762 and all of them are riding on
the Barber trucks. The NP equipment diagram is no help at all. :-)

http://research.nprha.org/NP%20Box%20Cars/Box%20Cars%2040%20Ft.%20Single%20Sheathed%2028000-999.jpg

Tim O'Connor

Rob, I think your question might be better directed to the New York Central System Historical Society:

http://nycshs.org/. I know they have official painting and lettering diagrams for milk cars, refrigerator cars and express cars that will answer many of your questions.

There is also a NYC Modelers Yahoo Group that you may find of benefit:

NYC-Modeler@...<mailto:NYC-Modeler@...>

Having said that and assuming that you are talking about an HO scale model, the car you are describing sounds like one of the express cars imported back in the 80's or early 90's by NJCB (Custom Brass). I believe Precision Scale imported some NYC express cars also.

The cars were essentially a Pullman Green color and by the late 40's the cars the lettering would have been 'Deluxe Gold', which is a yellow color, not gold as in 'gold leaf'. Champ used to make decals that would work pretty good for this car. I don't have the number for the decal set in front of me, but if no one else chimes in I can supply it when I get home.

Mark Rossiter



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



4. Help with decals for NYC

Posted by: "roblmclear" rob.mclear3@...<mailto:rob.mclear3@...> roblmclear

Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:32 am ((PDT))



Hello again



Need some more help if you can give it I am in the process of painting a New York Central wooden express reefer. Crikey I hope this is appropriate for this list, I hear it is very cold in moderator jail here....



The car is an undecorated brass model so consequently has not come with any decals. I am unsure of the lettering style and colour that was used in my period (1947) I am trying to get some custom decals made to fit the car but need to know firstly the colour, then they style and then the height of the various parts of the lettering.



For instance I have seen these cars with the letters NYC above both the numbers on both ends of the sides low down and I have seen pictures of them with just the numbers. I know that New York Central was spelled out on the sides but again don't know the size and style and colour. I know that it should be either Gold or Yellow but can't seem to identify it.



I don't know the class of the car but is wooden sides, no belt rail, round roof, with recessed ladder places on the sides and deep side sills in the middle tapering towards each end.



Any help would be appreciated.



Regards

Rob McLear

Kingaroy Australia

From the floor of the 2013 National Train Show in Atlanta GA:

Tangent Scale Models is pleased to announce the availability today of new paint schemes the Bethlehem Steel Company 52'6" 70-ton drop-end riveted gondola car in HO scale. Our HO scale precision models cater to steam, steam-transition, and diesel-era modelers with original delivery schemes from Bethlehem Steel, as well as repaint offerings. All of our schemes are customized to be prototypically accurate for each roadname!

Our new gondola is available now at www.tangentscalemodels.com in these 3 NEW schemes:

- Baltimore & Ohio (B&O) Class O-59A in the 1956 repaint scheme with the "Large B&O" white stenciling on the car sides! This is the most requested scheme we have had for this car, and Tangent is proud to have these available NOW in 12 road numbers.
- Lehigh Valley (LV) in the "Original 1952" oxide red paint scheme, complete with black diamond logo on the side of the car. These original paint scheme cars are now available in 6 road numbers.
- Western Maryland (WM) painted in the "Original 1951" red scheme, which features the "Fast Freight Line" logo on the side of the car. This car is available in 6 road numbers.

Also, due to customer demand, Tangent Scale Models is proud to announce the availability of these five popular schemes again, with brand new road numbers for 2013:

- Baltimore & Ohio (B&O) Class O-59 in the "Original 1937" paint scheme with white stencils on a black carbody, available in 4 new road numbers.
- Central Railroad of Pennsylvania (CRP) in the original 1944 paint scheme with white stencils including "Lady Liberty" and "Jersey Central Lines" on a black carbody, available in 4 new road numbers.
- Central Railroad of New Jersey (CNJ) in the same 1944 paint scheme as CRP above but with a 1952 reweigh date. Like our CRP replicas, it includes the white stencils including "Lady Liberty" and "Jersey Central Lines" on a black carbody, available in 4 new road numbers.
- Lehigh Valley (LV) in the gorgeous 1973 repaint "Cornell red", available in 4 new road numbers.
- Western Maryland (WM) painted in the original 1953 red scheme, available in 4 new road numbers.
- Undecorated RTR or Kit

These products will begin shipping on Monday, July 29, 2013.

Want to see photos of our new spectacular replicas? See http://tangentscalemodels.com/bethlehem70tongondolareplicas.aspx for a link to the new models!

First produced in March 1937 for Baltimore & Ohio Railroad as class O-59, B&O alone purchased 4,000 of these drop-end gondolas which served every corner of North America in many services. Five additional railroads purchased these Bethlehem-design gondolas in intervening years until production ceased in 1957. Most of these gondolas were phased from revenue service by the mid-1980s, with many serving additional years in various MOW roles.

The Tangent Scale Models prototype replica of the Bethlehem Steel gondola has never been produced in HO scale as a styrene model, making it a distinctive addition to any freight car fleet. Other brands may offer these schemes on their cars, but they are not correct! As typical of our products, we take the time to focus on execution of all the small details. We studied the prototype to accurately reproduce it with the following features:
- Dimensional accuracy - scaled from Bethlehem Steel plans
- Highly accurate "true to life" colors
- Exact stencils and lettering placement - compare our replicas to the prototype photos on our website!
- Detail variations: Tie downs appropriate for each paint scheme
- Detail variations: Steel or wood deck inside the car
- Detail variations: Duryea and conventional end sill detail appropriate for each paint scheme
- Detail variations: Tack board locations appropriate for each paint scheme
- Detail variations: End door variations (Dreadnaught and Straight Corrugated) appropriate for each paint scheme
- Detail variations: Brake platforms appropriate for each paint scheme
- Detail variations: Road-specific handbrakes applied to match production specifications (Universal, Ajax, or Equipco handbrakes available as separate parts, too!)
- Interior deck sits at the scale height
- Interior detail inside the gondola
- Wire grab irons and coupler lift bars
- Air hoses
- Weighted to NMRA specs for smooth operation
- Kadee® scale metal couplers
- Tangent 70-ton ASF A-3 Ride-Control trucks with free-rolling metal wheels
- Recommended age 14 years and older.

Pricing for our new RTR gondolas is $32.95 each, and we offer discounts for quantities of 6, 12, and 24 models. Feel free to "mix and match" your own multi-scheme order, and you can "mix and match" with our previously released ACF Gondolas – currently available in PRR (2 flavors), ACL, DL&W, Sacramento Northern, SP "Gothic", Wabash, Western Pacific, and Undecorated. Please order online from us today from www.tangentscalemodels.com for fastest, guaranteed shipping. You may also call us at 828-279-6106 to place an order over the phone. Our cars generally sell out quickly – order direct to guarantee your purchase! Or contact your local hobby shop!


Tangent Scale Models will debut and sell these models at the National Train Show in Atlanta GA from July 19-21, 2013. Please stop by and introduce yourself!

Thank you for continuing to support Tangent Scale Models!

David Lehlbach – live from the National Train Show in Atlanta, GA USA
Tangent Scale Models - "Unparalleled scale replicas for discriminating railroad modelers"
www.tangentscalemodels.com
tangentscalemodels@...
PO Box 6514
Asheville NC 28816
828-279-6106