Date   

Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

O Fenton Wells
 

Pretty awsome Tom! I tip my hat to you. Well done.
Fenton Wells

On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 12:23 PM, pullmanboss <pullmanboss@yahoo.com> wrote:

**


Many thanks for all the kind words, both on list and via private email.
I'll try a catch-all response to clarify a few things and answer the
questions.

The parts in the photos before the prototype shot of the running board
supports are all 3D printed masters with Archer rivets added. The parts in
the last two photos (the one showing all five parts and the one showing
them dry-fitted) are first generation resin castings made from those
masters. Those first generation castings will become production masters
after I add a few more details and make sure everything fits properly.

From my standpoint as a resin caster the original 3D printed part only
needs to get me through the Archer rivet application stage. At that point
I'll make a mold and work with resin castings from then on. There are two
reasons for this. First, the 3D printing processes that are capable of
rendering the level of detail shown in my photos use materials that are
much too brittle or unstable for end-product use, and the processes that do
use suitable materials can't render the required level of detail. Second,
Archer rivets are wonderful, but they *will* chip off with careless
handling and, in my view, aren't trustworthy on a master from which 15 or
20 molds might be made. So my designs allow for at least two generations of
mold and casting shrinkage, and I use first generation resin castings
rather than printed originals as production masters.

Yes, the idea is to market two resin kits, one of which will make a Tk-G
or Tk-H, and the other to make either a Tk-I or Tk-J. Each kit will have a
tank with appropriate details and two domes. I intend to do the later
versions of the Tk-G and -H, with center tank anchors, rather than
as-delivered with head blocks and diagonal tank hold-down straps. The
diagonal strap anchor castings on the top of the tank will be there, of
course. A few things have to be worked out - the running board supports,
which in this design are cosmetic rather than structural, and the running
board steps might best be made of brass, but whether from formed strip or
photo-etching remains to be determined.

As Kent Hurley indicated, these parts were not made on $1600 machines. Or
on $16,000 machines. As many of you know, in my post-retirement career I
consult part time for a local rapid prototyping company and have access
(but not free access) to some pretty amazing technology. We can make parts
using stereolithography (SLA), selective laser sintering (SLS) and PolyJet.
We don't yet have any MultiJet machines (like PolyJet but with higher
resolution), so I use Shapeways for that technology. At this stage of their
development I wouldn't consider buying any consumer-grade 3D printer. They
do have a lot of gee whiz appeal and are great for making decent 1:1
objects and shapes, but in this hobby we make miniatures, not full-size
objects. (In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called "computer
controlled hot glue guns".) Pay attention to the jewelers who use 3D
printing. Their needs are similar to ours, so follow their lead.

Now if you will indulge a bit of philosophy. I am a competent modeler,
have become passably competent in 3D CAD, and have expertise in resin
casting and mold making. When it comes to casting I can look at a part,
visualize how the resin will flow, where the parting line needs to be,
where the gate and vents should be located, and how the part should be
oriented in the mold. I've also been intimately involved in the design of a
very complex product line, the Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits. So I
have a pretty good view of the whole process, from concept through
manufacturing and final assembly. My gripe with resin kits in general is
that the patterns are created but not designed, and the kits themselves,
the aggregate collections of parts needed to create models, are seldom
engineered with any consideration for ease of assembly. That's
understandable because, traditionally, patterns for resin casting have been
created by expert scratch builders. And scratchbuilding involves a lot of
"make it up as I go along". Also, even with one-piece bodies, many parts
are still made by flat casting and you can't include mounting bosses or
alignment keys on the backs of flat cast parts.

Tank cars are considered very difficult resin kits to assemble. I've tried
to break a complex model into parts that are straightforward to cast, and
include registration and alignment features. All those notches, grooves,
posts and apertures in the parts have a purpose. Drill and tap the bottom
of the dome mounting boss and the subassembly of upper & lower tank shells,
running board and dome can be held together in perfect alignment with a
single 1-72 machine screw. The tank supports that mount on top of the
underframe ("fiddly bits" awaiting application of Archer rivets) are keyed
to it, and the underframe is keyed to the lower tank shell. Holes will be
spotted for grab irons and handrail posts, and a forming jig provided for
making the offset bends in the end handrails. You'll still have to remove
flash from the parts, but once that's done the assembly should go quickly.

Might be a Prototype Rails clinic in all this - Designing for 3D Printing,
including an overview of the 3D printing processes appropriate to our
hobby....

Tom Madden




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Tom Madden
 

Many thanks for all the kind words, both on list and via private email. I'll try a catch-all response to clarify a few things and answer the questions.

The parts in the photos before the prototype shot of the running board supports are all 3D printed masters with Archer rivets added. The parts in the last two photos (the one showing all five parts and the one showing them dry-fitted) are first generation resin castings made from those masters. Those first generation castings will become production masters after I add a few more details and make sure everything fits properly.

From my standpoint as a resin caster the original 3D printed part only needs to get me through the Archer rivet application stage. At that point I'll make a mold and work with resin castings from then on. There are two reasons for this. First, the 3D printing processes that are capable of rendering the level of detail shown in my photos use materials that are much too brittle or unstable for end-product use, and the processes that do use suitable materials can't render the required level of detail. Second, Archer rivets are wonderful, but they *will* chip off with careless handling and, in my view, aren't trustworthy on a master from which 15 or 20 molds might be made. So my designs allow for at least two generations of mold and casting shrinkage, and I use first generation resin castings rather than printed originals as production masters.

Yes, the idea is to market two resin kits, one of which will make a Tk-G or Tk-H, and the other to make either a Tk-I or Tk-J. Each kit will have a tank with appropriate details and two domes. I intend to do the later versions of the Tk-G and -H, with center tank anchors, rather than as-delivered with head blocks and diagonal tank hold-down straps. The diagonal strap anchor castings on the top of the tank will be there, of course. A few things have to be worked out - the running board supports, which in this design are cosmetic rather than structural, and the running board steps might best be made of brass, but whether from formed strip or photo-etching remains to be determined.

As Kent Hurley indicated, these parts were not made on $1600 machines. Or on $16,000 machines. As many of you know, in my post-retirement career I consult part time for a local rapid prototyping company and have access (but not free access) to some pretty amazing technology. We can make parts using stereolithography (SLA), selective laser sintering (SLS) and PolyJet. We don't yet have any MultiJet machines (like PolyJet but with higher resolution), so I use Shapeways for that technology. At this stage of their development I wouldn't consider buying any consumer-grade 3D printer. They do have a lot of gee whiz appeal and are great for making decent 1:1 objects and shapes, but in this hobby we make miniatures, not full-size objects. (In the trade, the consumer-grade 3D printers are called "computer controlled hot glue guns".) Pay attention to the jewelers who use 3D printing. Their needs are similar to ours, so follow their lead.

Now if you will indulge a bit of philosophy…. I am a competent modeler, have become passably competent in 3D CAD, and have expertise in resin casting and mold making. When it comes to casting I can look at a part, visualize how the resin will flow, where the parting line needs to be, where the gate and vents should be located, and how the part should be oriented in the mold. I've also been intimately involved in the design of a very complex product line, the Branchline heavyweight Pullman kits. So I have a pretty good view of the whole process, from concept through manufacturing and final assembly. My gripe with resin kits in general is that the patterns are created but not designed, and the kits themselves, the aggregate collections of parts needed to create models, are seldom engineered with any consideration for ease of assembly. That's understandable because, traditionally, patterns for resin casting have been created by expert scratch builders. And scratchbuilding involves a lot of "make it up as I go along". Also, even with one-piece bodies, many parts are still made by flat casting and you can't include mounting bosses or alignment keys on the backs of flat cast parts.

Tank cars are considered very difficult resin kits to assemble. I've tried to break a complex model into parts that are straightforward to cast, and include registration and alignment features. All those notches, grooves, posts and apertures in the parts have a purpose. Drill and tap the bottom of the dome mounting boss and the subassembly of upper & lower tank shells, running board and dome can be held together in perfect alignment with a single 1-72 machine screw. The tank supports that mount on top of the underframe ("fiddly bits" awaiting application of Archer rivets) are keyed to it, and the underframe is keyed to the lower tank shell. Holes will be spotted for grab irons and handrail posts, and a forming jig provided for making the offset bends in the end handrails. You'll still have to remove flash from the parts, but once that's done the assembly should go quickly.

Might be a Prototype Rails clinic in all this - Designing for 3D Printing, including an overview of the 3D printing processes appropriate to our hobby....

Tom Madden


Re: end of kits

Don <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "EdwardM" <ed_mines@...> wrote: In part:


Together, this group has enough unbuilt kits to stock several hobby
shops.
Probably quite true.

Kits have always been slow movers - if the buffs don't buy them all
up they can stick around hobby shops for years.
But this is true of many things in any type of store.

We are lame ducks for (1) being interested in the steam era &
(2) liking to build models. Both interests seem to be dying out.
Not so sure aboout the fisrt part of this. Have been quite surprised in the last couple of years to find a few fellows in their 20's who
much prefer the late steam era. As one put it to me, the current scene is like the old Pete Seeger song with everything being built out of ticky-tacky and all looking just the same. With what I see on the old Southern mainline these days it is hard to disagree with that. All the box cars, all the covered hoppers, all the open hoppers and all the tank cars look the same except for the pattern of graffiti on them. What a dull hobby it would be without the late steam and early diesel era! If a tank car is over 11,000 gal., a box car or reefer is over 50 ft. or a hopper is over 40 ft. long it won't be seen on my roster. One needs to make room for more 36 footers! VBG

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Jim Barnes
 

WOW!  I'm starting to think these tank cars as a kit will become a reality.  Fantastic Tom
Jim Barnes

Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC BOXCAR TRUCKS

Tom Vanwormer
 

Gene,
In HO Scale look at Thielsen Trucks from Trout Creek Engineering and
journal lids from Silver Crash Car Works.
Tom VanWormer

moonmuln wrote:





Gene Green wrote:

I'd like to see, in HO at least, scale model trucks where the
bolster end and journal box lids are separate parts applied by the
modeler to match what he or she sees in the photo of their prototype.
We've seen this in O scale. Intermountain's trucks had two styles of
journal box lids, also a spring plank vs plankless option, and a
choice of two (dummy)spring packages. Just one bolster, though.

Jack Mullen



Re: Intermountain 8K tank cars / new releases

michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
 

I much appreciate this update, Richard. Very helpful, as always!

Yours,

Michael

Michael Gross
La Cañada, CA






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
 

Wow, that is extraordinary work. Well done!

Michael Gross
La Canada, CA


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC BOXCAR TRUCKS

Jack Mullen
 

Gene Green wrote:

I'd like to see, in HO at least, scale model trucks where the bolster end and journal box lids are separate parts applied by the modeler to match what he or she sees in the photo of their prototype.

We've seen this in O scale. Intermountain's trucks had two styles of journal box lids, also a spring plank vs plankless option, and a choice of two (dummy)spring packages. Just one bolster, though.

Jack Mullen


Re: end of kits

bflynnd1
 

Sorry, forgot to sign my name.

Brian Flynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Bflynn562 <bflynn562@aol.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 19, 2013 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] end of kits


Um, while I can not probably be classified as young anymore, (42) I have come to
njoy the challenge of building freight car kits. I have learned a lot from this
roup, and I would much rather spend the time building a prototypically correct
ar, then buying an RTR car. I do not have a layout at this time, but the
revious one also had all hand laid track and over 50 hand laid switches. So
lease don't generalize all of us!

-----Original Message-----
rom: EdwardM <ed_mines@yahoo.com>
o: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
ent: Fri, Jul 19, 2013 2:19 pm
ubject: [STMFC] end of kits

think the greying of model railroaders in general fueled the shift from kits
RTR.
any modelers end up with a closet full of kits; they then progress to buying
ss and spending more for each item. RTR is preferable to kits which may never
t built or can't be built in the first place.You can put RTR on your layout or
a shelf. Kits stay in the box forever.
ogether, this group has enough unbuilt kits to stock several hobby shops.
its have always been slow movers - if the buffs don't buy them all up they can
ick around hobby shops for years.
obbies for men never sold anything more complicated than blue box screw driver
ts. The owner knew how to make money.
e are lame ducks for (1) being interested in the steam era & (2) liking to
ild models. Both interests seem to be dying out.
------------------------------------
ahoo! Groups Links
Individual Email | Traditional
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Individual Email | Traditional
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC BOXCAR TRUCKS

Jack Mullen
 

Gene Green wrote:

Thank Richard (and Dave, who contacted me off list),
I should have been more clear in my original post. (I knew what I was thinking and figured you guys would all know, too. We're all clairvoyant, right?)

Using ASF A-3s and Barber S-2s as examples, would it be true that the only bolster that would fit the sideframe would have to come from the same manufacturer?
Gene,
I'm not a mechanical guy, but from what I've learned on the job and in derailment cause-finding training, it's true that each of the major "stabilized" truck designs (the above plus National C-1) has a different, proprietary arrangement of wedges that requires a match between bolster and sideframe. That said, both ASF and Barber designs were licensed to other truck manufacturers, eg. Scullin or Symington. The licensed products may well have been interchangeable with the "parent" design. But I suspect that the advent of "Ride Control" or "Stabilized" trucks pretty much ended the practice of ordering truck sideframes and bolsters piecemeal.

From a modeling viewpoint, in looking at the various mfrs pages in the Cycs, I have not noticed significant differences in the appearance of the bolster end that would distinguish, say a Symington Ride Control truck bolster from an ASF one. You and others have probably paid more attention to this, however.

Jack Mullen


Re: end of kits

bflynnd1
 

Um, while I can not probably be classified as young anymore, (42) I have come to enjoy the challenge of building freight car kits. I have learned a lot from this group, and I would much rather spend the time building a prototypically correct car, then buying an RTR car. I do not have a layout at this time, but the previous one also had all hand laid track and over 50 hand laid switches. So please don't generalize all of us!

-----Original Message-----
From: EdwardM <ed_mines@yahoo.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jul 19, 2013 2:19 pm
Subject: [STMFC] end of kits


I think the greying of model railroaders in general fueled the shift from kits
o RTR.
Many modelers end up with a closet full of kits; they then progress to buying
ess and spending more for each item. RTR is preferable to kits which may never
et built or can't be built in the first place.You can put RTR on your layout or
n a shelf. Kits stay in the box forever.
Together, this group has enough unbuilt kits to stock several hobby shops.
Kits have always been slow movers - if the buffs don't buy them all up they can
tick around hobby shops for years.
Hobbies for men never sold anything more complicated than blue box screw driver
its. The owner knew how to make money.
We are lame ducks for (1) being interested in the steam era & (2) liking to
uild models. Both interests seem to be dying out.

------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Individual Email | Traditional
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: NORTHERN PACIFIC BOXCAR TRUCKS

railsnw@frontier.com <railsnw@...>
 

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia 19 does list the trucks, see the caption on the top photo of page 28. Cars 28000 to 28374 were equipped with Barber S-2 and 28375 to 28749 used ASF A-3. NP 28757 and 28762 must have had trucks changed out. The Northwest Railway Museum has NP 28129 and 28417 and both have their correct trucks.

Richard Wilkens

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


It would be nice to know which cars had which. I have photos of
28151, 28198, 28318, 28757, 28762 and all of them are riding on
the Barber trucks. The NP equipment diagram is no help at all. :-)

http://research.nprha.org/NP%20Box%20Cars/Box%20Cars%2040%20Ft.%20Single%20Sheathed%2028000-999.jpg

Tim O'Connor



> Some of these cars also had ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks. See the builder's photo
> of NP #28464 in the September 1994 issue of Mainline Modeler.
> Brian Leppert


>> Bill, the NP War Emergency box cars were delivered with Barber Stabilized S-2 trucks.
>> Branchline offered those trucks in HO, and though they are now out of production you
>> may be able to find some. Currently in production are the Exactrail ET-114 Barber S-2s.
>> Richard Hendrickson


The End of the Line for Kits?

Rossiter, Mark W <Mark.Rossiter@...>
 

I'm going to risk going to moderator jail by straying from freight cars for a moment by asking if the day of kit building is over, how does one explain the explosion of laser-cut craftsman kit manufacturers of structures? At the Springfield meet you can't swing a broom in any direction without hitting one. Inquiring minds want to know.

Mark 'Dulux' Rossiter


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Tom

Fantastic! Would the parts shown become masters for conventional
rubber molds, or do you envision 3D printing as a production process?
I only ask because you added Archer rivets and I wonder if that is
something modelers would be willing to do (since the patterns on a
tank car are somewhat esoteric).

Tim O'Connor

Ben Hom wrote:
Too much effort is being expended cursing the darkness
rather than lighting candles. Some folks around here need to spend
time working on their kit stashes and sharing it with everyone
instead of sitting at the computer bemoaning the fate of the hobby.
OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden


Report from Atlanta

Bill Welch
 

There were not many freight car types in Atlanta this week for the NMRA Nat'l that I knew; Bruce Smith, Frank Peacock, Johnny Johnson and Mont Switzer are among those I spoke to.

Among the new models I saw at the Train Show were The Wright Trak's V10 version of the SAL's ventilated boxcar that I purchased to go w/the V9 I already have. Steve Funaro has a new 3-bay Pullman built covered hopper circa 1947-48 for the Southern and KCS to name two that I remember--gorgeous one piece cast superstructure with an U/F that snaps into place. Decals are not completed yet so he was only showing the castings. InterMountain forgot to bring their 2-bay offset twin hopper.

Clare Gilbert has two different Great Dane trailers he is working on that could go on flat cars--mandatory content. I saw preliminary casting but production is still months away.

I operated on the Civil War O-Scale diorama that Bernie Kempinski and Gerry Fitzgerald brought. Things went flawlessly on this beautiful scene and I did not break anything. Bernie has working brakes on some of his freight cars!

Bill Welch


Re: Model Kits and the evolving New Reality

Tim O'Connor
 

Charlie I agree I think I made that calculation before for Athearn's
"GP9" that originally retailed for around $19 which would be $150 now.
The Genesis GP9 is no bargain, but it's a far better model for the
money.

Tim O'Connor

----------------------------------

Of course, if you compare the Athearn Kit of 1961 at $1.49, your equivalent
$11.64 isn't going to buy you a built-up Kadee car or pay for a resin kit
and supplies necessary to finish it. But if you compare apples with
apples the Hobby gives more bang for the buck in 2013 than it did in prior
years.
Charlie Vlk


Re: NYC Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Dulux colors came in many shades -- Accupaint produced both
"Imitation Gold" and "Light Imitation Gold" -- these captured
two different Dulux colors. I don't know if all railroads used
exactly the same shade that we like to call "Dulux Gold". Just
sayin'.

Tim O'Connor

And technically, "Dulux Gold" is NOT yellow, but imitation gold. Most versions of this are too yellow.
Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

tjcataldo
 

DO THEM IN N Scale too we have cash to buy them

tom cataldo


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 3:07 PM, pullmanboss <pullmanboss@yahoo.com> wrote:

**


Ben Hom wrote:
Too much effort is being expended cursing the darkness
rather than lighting candles. Some folks around here need to spend
time working on their kit stashes and sharing it with everyone
instead of sitting at the computer bemoaning the fate of the hobby.
OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been
working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it
at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden




--
*Thomas j Cataldo*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Sinclair billboard tank cars

Jack Mullen
 

Jerry,

Your remarks caught my interest as I have a need for a couple Sinclair cars (in O scale unfortunately). A couple questions interpolated below.

Jack Mullen

Jerry Stewart wrote:

Allen, my friend, I would be more than happy to work with you on this project also.
The photo in question of the Sinclair AC&F 10k type 21 Insulated car was in a bunch
of shots that the late Bill Raia had acquired. Unfortunately it's was at an acute angle
in the photo, but you could see that it "appeared" to be painted in the same layout as
the all black Sinclair cars, just light colored from the sheathing batten at the bottom
of the tank upwards.
Could you distinguish the car number in the photo?

It looked to me as if they just used the same stencils as the all
black cars, just revising the colors? You are aware that if you do this to your present
Sinclair lettering set you would have to revise the tank data on the left side of the
?? Left side only? Isn't the tank data on both sides?

A set of assorted tank data with various mfrs, tank classes, dates and capacities would be great to have. AFAIK nobody has produced one.

car to reflect the proper AC&F information. I hate to say it, but so many decal sets
for tank car miss this critical point,
And including rptg mks and numbers for the underframe would be nice too.

and modelers screw-up the lettering all the
time.
Guilty as charged, I'm sure.

I personal don't think the lettering is any other color but black on the light tank
color, and I have my doubts if the cars every became all black as the model is before
the Sinclair fleet was sold off to Union Tank Line? There are a bunch of mistakes in
the lettering of the Proto 2k tank cars and this may be just another one of them.You
should have my e-mail if I can be of any further help.


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

nvrr49 <nvrr49@...>
 

I have several question.

Can you give us some idea as to the cost? Everyone please keep in mind he is not using some $1600 printer, but would have to amortize the cost of a very expensive printer in to the cost of goods sold.

I have used shapeways.com for many items, and with great to good results. Orientation is a issue with shapeways, and orientation is VERY important. I have a $1600 3d printer and, at first, it took several attempts to get a good print. With experience comes knowledge, and most of my items print correct the first time now.

You can see many of my 3d printed items at nvrr49.blogspot.com, and I recently put up an adaptation of a clinic I put on at an NMRA regional.

Kent Hurley, KC
nvrr49.blogspot.com

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pullmanboss" <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

OK, I've been plugging away with 3D printing and here's what I've been working on:
http://www.pullmanproject.com/AssemblyX.jpg

I don't blog but have uploaded a PDF file explaining this project. View it at at least 100% to get the full benefit of the images.
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Adventures.pdf

Tom Madden

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