Date   

Re: P&LE

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Larry,

Thanks for the "Little Giant "issue. I was intrigued by the Fogg painting that I was sure was a photo. It reminded me that I have an original bound set of Fogg P&LE paintings about postcard size. Could you use them?

I could scan and pass them on.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Per Diem

Tony Thompson
 

Howard Garner wrote:
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay per diem.
As Dennis pointed out, the customer charge is not per diem, but demurrage. There was not a fixed time for this, and customers could negotiate with the railroad as what this period would be. But typical numbers were 24 hours for loading, 48 hours for unloading, rather than in days. The customer would "stop the clock" by calling the agent (or yardmaster) and telling him the car was ready for pickup.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Tom,
You mentioned shrinkage in the RTV rubber mold and resin casting processes. Others have mentioned shrinkage as well. It must be significant if it is mentioned so often.

Is there a given size or volume above which shrinkage matters?

Does the rubber mold shrink?

Do resin castings shrink a predictable amount or are we talking trial and error?

Is shrinkage expressed as a per cent?

Do various resin concoctions shrink at different rates or all the same?

Gene Green


Re: end of kits

geodyssey <riverob@...>
 

I consider this subject to be a subset of the "The End of the hobby in near" argument. I've been hearing variations of that since I started doing serious modeling in the early 70s. Yet today the variety of hobby products (including steam era freight cars) is greater than ever, and inflation-adjusted prices are not out of line with those of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

Robert Simpson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Caboose sighting

navyfan696 <michaelcalo3403@...>
 

Today at 12:39 p.m. EDT, I saw a deedhead move of a NS diesel and a red NS center-cupola caboose on RoanokeRailCam.com. They're also assembling two sections of track panel within the camera's view.

Cool beans!!
Mike Calo


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Dennis,
Is it possible your firm could do (or want to do) one of these in plastic? Not sure how injection molds are done now-days.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Tom Madden
 

Dennis wrote:

So, why use Archer rivets? It would seem that the advantage of 3D printing is being able to add the fiddly bits at the computer, rather than having to tease them in place after paying big bucks to create the basic shell. I realize using Archer rivets is pretty easy, my question is really aimed at including surface detail other than rivets; sheathing bolts on side framing, fillet gussets on castings and the like.
Also, what is the layer thickness and pixel resolution in the "high fidelity slicing mode", and what did it do to build time?
Time for another of Madden's Infamous Treatises on 3D Printing That Aren't The Least Bit Interesting Now But Might Be Later....

Some background - I came into the rapid prototyping (RP) field with expertise in mold making and resin casting but none in the actual printing processes, so all I know about them comes from observation and a growing body of experience. Slicing is the data processing step by which a 3D CAD file is sliced into individual layers, with the resulting slices of data sent, one at a time, to the 3D printer. 3D Systems introduced high fidelity slicing in 2005 but our managers chose not to implement it. (It would only work on one of our six stereolithography [SLA] machines, the high resolution Viper, and it slows things down because slicing is done in real time and the machine would have to wait between layers for the data processing to catch up.) I wasn't even aware of it, nor were any of the shop supervisors. Basically, Hi-Fi slicing greatly reduces the jitter between layers so you get much smoother side walls - both vertical and contoured. It's an add-on to give better results with a machine's existing build modes, not a new build mode. By last fall our stable of SLA machines had grown to 14, eight of them Vipers. All of them have faster computers, so we upgraded the software and all the Vipers now run Hi-Fi slicing.

To be honest, Dennis, I was so blown away by the smooth surfaces that I when the SLA supervisor walked in with a flash drive and asked for one of my "miniature" designs for a demo run, I just went with those upper & lower tank shell files. The amazing thing is, those parts were built using the Viper's standard mode (.010" beam diameter, .004" layers) and not in high resolution mode (.003" beam diameter, .002" layers). Probably a good thing, because those tank bands are .006" thick and the SLA process won't build overhangs if the layer to layer offset is greater than about 75% of the beam diameter. (There has to be something underneath to build on. You can't create a .006" offset with a .003" beam.)

I don't know if a side wall with rivets etc. would build. I tried building the underframe that way, but it failed. For that, Shapeways and multi-jet modeling was the answer. There is no single RP process that does everything well, you still need lots of tools in your kit.

Care to give us a realistic cost number for someone who walks in off the street with usable STL files?
I'll check when I go in today.

Tom Madden


Re: Per Diem

Larry Kline
 

Thanks for the link to the history talk.

The change from daily to hourly per diem had a big negative impact on the finances of the WM. With daily per diem the WM was able to avoid per diem on most cars and had a significant net per diem income from per diem on WM cars on other RRs.

When hourly car hire started that income went away.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis


Re: end of kits

Paul Doggett <paul.doggett2472@...>
 

We have the same problem in the UK, younger modellers when you can actually find them and a lot of older ones (the majority) cannot be bothered to build kits let alone scratch build something. Another thing is the amount of good quality ready to run stock in todays colourful liveries, this leads to a lot of modellers running the same stock. Train shows over here are very boring now because of this. Also like yourselves in the states less and less modellers actually remember/model the steam era. We have a lot of preserved railways over this side of the pond which run a lot of steam but only occasionally run a token goods (freight)train which does not even resemble a typical steam era train, or the working of one with picking up and setting out of wagons (cars). This one of the main reasons I model SP circa 1950.
regards to you all Paul Doggett (England)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: end of kits

Marty McGuirk
 

I was going through the MR DVDs looking for something the other day and stumbled across an editorial written by ACK himself - he mentions several modelers were distressed that all these newfangled "kits" - you know, where you could get all the parts in a box - that were even coming with "printed" sides would be the ruination of the hobby.
I didn't note the exact date of the issue, but it was sometime in the mid-1930s.

Marty McGuirk

____________________________________________________________________

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Koehler" <buygone@> wrote:

I got a chuckle out of your E-Mail, but I think that there are only a few of us that are old enough to remember what you are describing.


Re: Per Diem

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Howard R Garner <cascaderail@...> wrote:

Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay
per diem.

Howard Garner
The charge to the customer for holding the cart too long for loading/unloading is called demurrage.


Dennis


Re: Per Diem

earlyrail
 

Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay per diem.

Howard Garner


Re: Per Diem

Phillip Blancher <pblancher@...>
 

To give you an example of what Dennis wrote, the Rutland Railroad
avoided per diem like the plague. During the Steam Era, the Rutland
would receive coal for clients from interchange points in Norwood,
Malone or Rouses Point, New York off the NYC or D&H. These loads were
for clients anywhere along the line and originate from the PRR, B&O,
D&H or DL&W. If the cars were slated for go to say, Malone, they would
be delivered and as soon as empty, retrieved and returned to
interchange. However, if the coal was for railroad use, or they had
time to do this before delivering to the customer, the car would be
routed to the yard at Alburgh, Vermont. There, a coal trestle was
located and the Rutland would run the foreign car up the trestle and
unload the load into the clapped out 10000-series 2-Bay coal hoppers
(modeled using the Bowser GLa2 as a basis in HO for mandatory STMFC
content). Then the empty foreign car would be quickly released and
routed back to the quickest interchange possible. I believe they had
three days of the car being on the road before per diem would start.

Similarly, the Rutland purchased 350 40' PS-1 Box Cars from 1954-57
which roamed the US and Canada earning the company a tidy sum on per
diem. Those cars being modeled with the Kadee releases (for members of
the silver roof club) or Intermountain/Steam Shack releases (for
members of the yellow roof society).

I believe this was common for smaller class-ones.

Phillip

--
Phillip Blancher
http://about.me/phillipblancher

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 11:42 PM, soolinehistory <destorzek@mchsi.com> wrote:


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@...> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group? In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy. Is there still per diem on freight cars?

In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare. How did they keep track of cars and transfer money? How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Per Diem

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@...> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis


Re: end of kits

Carl
 

As one of those who does remember, I just wanted to mention that the last four rolling stock items I picked up were three exquisitely lithographed Athearn metal kits(2 tanks and a reefer) and, just today, a Speedwitch 1932 box direct from Ted via everyone's favorite auction site.

Some may sit on the shelf for a while, but they will always be viable challenges and ultimately assembled.

Best Wishes--Carl

Carl G. Camann
Atlanta, GA

____________________________________________________________________

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Koehler" <buygone@...> wrote:

I got a chuckle out of your E-Mail, but I think that there are only a few of us that are old enough to remember what you are describing.


Re: Andrews trucks for ATSF Bx-6?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 22, 2013, at 12:23 PM, yingstco <flyingy@sunset.net> wrote:

Which Andrews trucks would be appropriate for the above referenced car,Tichy, Accurail, or Tahoe Model Works?

As always thanks for all the information.
All are good, Dave, but I'd go with the Accurail trucks because they have the correct bolster ends.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: end of kits

O Fenton Wells
 

Paul and Tony,
I am another who likes to go back and see the hobby when I started(for me
at least). I was going thru the 1948 through 1956 MR's the other night,
with a nice glass of wine, and it is very interesting just what a hot
button issue it was; the plastic vs. metal or wood for rolling stock and
the problem of not enough craftsmanship in building locomotive kits that
didn't need a lathe or other machine tools. When I first read these I was
young and didn't know how to use a lathe....and now I'm old and still don't
know how to use a lathe. And I'm probably the better for it.
Color me a modeler who will never make a mold and cast a resin part from it
but who really enjoys building "stuff"
Fenton Wells
PS there were several articles in the old MR's about casting cerro parts in
cardboard molds, that didn't excite me then as casting resin now doesn't
move me, thank goodness for the people who do however. Thanks

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Tom VanWormer <robsmom@pcisys.net> wrote:

**


Paul,
Your age and wisdom are showing. But I'm a "me too" in this.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Paul Koehler wrote:



Tony:

I got a chuckle out of your E-Mail, but I think that there are only a
few of
us that are old enough to remember what you are describing.

Paul C. Koehler

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On
Behalf Of Tony
Thompson
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:01 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: end of kits

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of
injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and
cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries
often
heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or
finishing
some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of
building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
<mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
<mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@gmail.com


Re: end of kits

Tom Vanwormer
 

Paul,
Your age and wisdom are showing. But I'm a "me too" in this.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Paul Koehler wrote:



Tony:

I got a chuckle out of your E-Mail, but I think that there are only a
few of
us that are old enough to remember what you are describing.

Paul C. Koehler

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>] On
Behalf Of Tony
Thompson
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:01 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: end of kits

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of
injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and
cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often
heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing
some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of
building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
<mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
<mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history






Re: end of kits

Paul Koehler <buygone@...>
 

Tony:



I got a chuckle out of your E-Mail, but I think that there are only a few of
us that are old enough to remember what you are describing.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony
Thompson
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 12:01 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: end of kits





This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of
injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and
cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often
heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing
some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of
building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
<mailto:tony%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Andrews trucks for ATSF Bx-6?

yingstco <flyingy@...>
 

Which Andrews trucks would be appropriate for the above referenced car,Tichy, Accurail, or Tahoe Model Works?

As always thanks for all the information.

Dave Yingst
Corning,CA

71441 - 71460 of 188720