Date   

Re: Per Diem

drgwrail
 

Francis:
 
As you say this is off-topic but if you want more detail contact me at rmailto:raildata@comcast.net.
 
Briefly, on the Lackawanna and most major railroads "car accounting" was done by IBM punch card systems. Car yard clerk reports, interchange reports, train consists, per diem charges, etc. were sent to Scranton by train mail, teletype, etc.
 
All reports of car movements were sent to Scranton where cards were punch from the input data. then collated by owner railroad, etc. and collated into reports by railraod. These reports were collated monthly by railroad and then sent toa  region clearing house. There the plus and minus charges for each two railroads was calculated and each railroad billed or paid to the clearing hose. Which in turn made total charges / or payments and sent a check or bills to each railroad for the clearing house.
 
The Lackawanna's car accounting / IBM processing dept occupied an entire in the Scranton office/ depot building.
 
In the '30s and 40's the railroads were one of IBM's largest customers.
 
Chuck Yungkurth
Boulder CO


________________________________
From: "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@yahoo.com>
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem

 
This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
 
Francis A. Pehowic, Jr.
Sunbury, Pa.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: end of kits

mrprksr <mrprksr@...>
 

Hey Guys,  Hobbies....especially Model Railroading and all that goes along with it is suppose to be Fun.......Bitchin'  and Moanin' ain 't  fun in my book.....Get a Life and enjoy the Hobby......Larry Mennie




________________________________
From: "asychis@aol.com" <asychis@aol.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: end of kits



 
But Brian, how many of us who live miles and miles from hobby stores now
have almost unlimited access to everything a person could want or need in
model railroading. I can browse anytime day or night, if one internet store
doesn't have what I want, the rest of the world is open to me to search. I
don't have to travel another 30 miles or place a backorder that may take a
month to fill when the store owner gets enough orders to send them to
Walthers.

I find it much better than the old way when I'd go to a hobby store and
find the Floquil rack half empty, or a stock of one bridge pier. Everyone has
their opinion, but I am truly optimistic that we're living in the best time
ever in the history of model railroading. The sky is not falling and
Timmy isn't in the well. :^),

Jerry Michels

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


End of kits

Matthew Hurst
 

Group,

I will have to completely agree with Elden Gatwood...all this doom and gloom?!?!?!?

I was just at a recent show and ran into a younger modeler than I, he was 18 (I am 32 by the way), and I spent some time talking to him, asking him of his interests and modeling prospects. He informed me that his interest lie in (cue dramatic music) the 1920's!!!! Right smack dab in the steam era.

As we conversed, we strolled over the Stephen Funaro's table and he proceeded to purchase some resin cars, the first ones in his collection. Since then we have been conversing over modeling tips and tricks to assembling resin cars.

I think this is probably were we as "Steam Era Modelers" should go...help the educate the younger modelers appreciate the satisfaction in building something...anything.

By the way, I am one of those thirty somethings Elden was talking about at the PRRT&HS convention. I love the steam era.

Matthew Hurst
Modeling the PRR and a little forgotten shortline in Pennsylvania...the Huntingdon and Broad Top in the late 1940's.


Re: Digest Number 8102

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

On 7/23/2013 3:39 PM, Jedalberg@aol.com wrote:
The question/joke each month was "What have you
added new to the store?"
Something to be said about RTR is that in most cases the cars are
probably on the layout instead of in the closet.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: end of kits

asychis@...
 

But Brian, how many of us who live miles and miles from hobby stores now
have almost unlimited access to everything a person could want or need in
model railroading. I can browse anytime day or night, if one internet store
doesn't have what I want, the rest of the world is open to me to search. I
don't have to travel another 30 miles or place a backorder that may take a
month to fill when the store owner gets enough orders to send them to
Walthers.

I find it much better than the old way when I'd go to a hobby store and
find the Floquil rack half empty, or a stock of one bridge pier. Everyone has
their opinion, but I am truly optimistic that we're living in the best time
ever in the history of model railroading. The sky is not falling and
Timmy isn't in the well. :^),

Jerry Michels


Re: Digest Number 8102

Jedalberg
 

In a message dated 7/23/2013 6:33:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
STMFC@yahoogroups.com writes:

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of
injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood
and
cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries
often
heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or
finishing
some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of
building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley

This has been an interesting thread. Maybe 30 years ago as a part
of our Monday night round robin group we were working on one of the layouts
and the owner, a good friend, who still comes to my op sessions, had one
of those "hobby shops in a closet" Full of brass, many craftsman kits, and
plenty of blue box kits. The question/joke each month was "What have you
added new to the store?" Several years ago he had one of those
we-buy-collections guys come in and it all went--and there was a lot more than 30 years
ago. I'd bet that many of those wood and stick craftsman kits of yore
occupied the equivalent spaces then as the resin kits of today.
Nothing wrong with that--most manufacturers wouldn't offer kits if only the
5% or so of us who actually build them were the only purchasers--it is
good for all of us.
I've been in the hobby for way more than the 30 years mentioned above, but
no hobby shop in closet. Built lots of the craftsman stuff, scratchbuilt
cars that weren't available--including some that did arrive.--and have built
about a hundred resin cars. This sounds like a lot, but spread over the
last 20 years it isn't. Most are on the railroad, but currently have seven
built and waiting for space on the layout. Have to take an equal number
off--difficult, because I know them all! Sometimes you cheat a little and take
off two and add four--you know what the eventual result is--.So, instead of
being unbuilt in a box in a closet, they are built an on shelves. I have
maybe a dozen resin kits waiting in line.

Jim Dalberg
Paoli,Pa


Re: end of kits

Tim O'Connor
 

Simon, modeling is modeling. But I'm not sure that I buy the "stages"
of modeling. Many of our finest scratchbuilders, kitbashers and builders
on this list (you know who you are! :-)) have never weathered anything!

Tim O'

One thing I have noticed with RTR is that people who don't build things
now have time to develop weathering and painting skills -- There were some
kids (20's) at the Springfield show with a spectacular collection of
beautifully weathered cars (including many with added open loads). I mean,
if you need a couple dozen cars of one type, would you like to build AND
weather them, or just concentrate on the weathering? There are now many
specialized paints sold specifically for weathering.
Is this not the way in, though? They start with weathering, such that they can make 20 cars in the same paint scheme look different. Then they move onto repaints before the weathering stage, to create more variety, then detail changes/upgrades, and finally onto conversions and kits. Each time they "advance" a stage, they know that they can always finish off the project - a stage many who start by building are reticent about.

Where's the problem, other than in our failure to reach out to interested young modellers?

Simon


Re: end of kits

Simon <simon_dunkley@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


One thing I have noticed with RTR is that people who don't build things
now have time to develop weathering and painting skills -- There were some
kids (20's) at the Springfield show with a spectacular collection of
beautifully weathered cars (including many with added open loads). I mean,
if you need a couple dozen cars of one type, would you like to build AND
weather them, or just concentrate on the weathering? There are now many
specialized paints sold specifically for weathering.
Is this not the way in, though? They start with weathering, such that they can make 20 cars in the same paint scheme look different. Then they move onto repaints before the weathering stage, to create more variety, then detail changes/upgrades, and finally onto conversions and kits.
Each time they "advance" a stage, they know that they can always finish off the project - a stage many who start by building are reticent about.

Where's the problem, other than in our failure to reach out to interested young modellers?

Simon


Signature Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

With so many companies now bringing out "signature" freight cars
(Exactrail just announced a model of a car with only one owner and
only 300 cars ever built), I'm left wondering why we can't get a
really good HO scale model of the PRR X31's and X32's. I mean, what
the heck? We have ribbed MILW box cars from what, four different
vendors, and three of those are models with stand-off details etc.
But for the X31 and X32 there is just the truly mediocre Bowser
car, or worse.

Just sayin'

Tim O'Connor


Re: end of kits

Tim O'Connor
 

One thing I have noticed with RTR is that people who don't build things
now have time to develop weathering and painting skills -- There were some
kids (20's) at the Springfield show with a spectacular collection of
beautifully weathered cars (including many with added open loads). I mean,
if you need a couple dozen cars of one type, would you like to build AND
weather them, or just concentrate on the weathering? There are now many
specialized paints sold specifically for weathering.

Tim O'Connor

Agreed, and there's a model train store on every street corner, right? Tell
us how many stores have closed in the past five years alone.
Brian Ehni

From: geodyssey <riverob@gmail.com>

I consider this subject to be a subset of the "The End of the hobby in near"
argument. I've been hearing variations of that since I started doing
serious modeling in the early 70s. Yet today the variety of hobby products
(including steam era freight cars) is greater than ever, and
inflation-adjusted prices are not out of line with those of 20, 30, or 40
years ago.

Robert Simpson


Re: end of kits

 

Agreed, and there's a model train store on every street corner, right? Tell
us how many stores have closed in the past five years alone.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: geodyssey <riverob@gmail.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 12:39 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: end of kits






I consider this subject to be a subset of the "The End of the hobby in near"
argument. I've been hearing variations of that since I started doing
serious modeling in the early 70s. Yet today the variety of hobby products
(including steam era freight cars) is greater than ever, and
inflation-adjusted prices are not out of line with those of 20, 30, or 40
years ago.

Robert Simpson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , Tony
Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of
injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and
cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often
heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing some
parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of building
anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


my error

CJ Riley
 

Apologies for the misdirected Email.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: P&LE

CJ Riley
 

Larry,

Thanks for the "Little Giant "issue. I was intrigued by the Fogg painting that I was sure was a photo. It reminded me that I have an original bound set of Fogg P&LE paintings about postcard size. Could you use them?

I could scan and pass them on.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


________________________________

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Per Diem

Tony Thompson
 

Howard Garner wrote:
Per Diem started at Midnight for the railroad.
The customer had xx days from car placement before they needed to pay per diem.
As Dennis pointed out, the customer charge is not per diem, but demurrage. There was not a fixed time for this, and customers could negotiate with the railroad as what this period would be. But typical numbers were 24 hours for loading, 48 hours for unloading, rather than in days. The customer would "stop the clock" by calling the agent (or yardmaster) and telling him the car was ready for pickup.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


RTV Rubber Mold/Resin Casting shrinkage (was Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars)

Gene <bierglaeser@...>
 

Tom,
You mentioned shrinkage in the RTV rubber mold and resin casting processes. Others have mentioned shrinkage as well. It must be significant if it is mentioned so often.

Is there a given size or volume above which shrinkage matters?

Does the rubber mold shrink?

Do resin castings shrink a predictable amount or are we talking trial and error?

Is shrinkage expressed as a per cent?

Do various resin concoctions shrink at different rates or all the same?

Gene Green


Re: end of kits

geodyssey <riverob@...>
 

I consider this subject to be a subset of the "The End of the hobby in near" argument. I've been hearing variations of that since I started doing serious modeling in the early 70s. Yet today the variety of hobby products (including steam era freight cars) is greater than ever, and inflation-adjusted prices are not out of line with those of 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

Robert Simpson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

This discussion reminds me of the 1950s, when the emergence of injection-molded plastic threatened the then-dominance of metal, wood and cardstock. "There won't be any more craftsmen," was one of the cries often heard. And the emergence of kits that didn't require creating or finishing some parts yourself? Sacrilege! "Soon there won't be anyone capable of building anything by themselves." 'Nuff said.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Caboose sighting

navyfan696 <michaelcalo3403@...>
 

Today at 12:39 p.m. EDT, I saw a deedhead move of a NS diesel and a red NS center-cupola caboose on RoanokeRailCam.com. They're also assembling two sections of track panel within the camera's view.

Cool beans!!
Mike Calo


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Dennis,
Is it possible your firm could do (or want to do) one of these in plastic? Not sure how injection molds are done now-days.

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: 3D Printed ATSF Tank Cars

Tom Madden
 

Dennis wrote:

So, why use Archer rivets? It would seem that the advantage of 3D printing is being able to add the fiddly bits at the computer, rather than having to tease them in place after paying big bucks to create the basic shell. I realize using Archer rivets is pretty easy, my question is really aimed at including surface detail other than rivets; sheathing bolts on side framing, fillet gussets on castings and the like.
Also, what is the layer thickness and pixel resolution in the "high fidelity slicing mode", and what did it do to build time?
Time for another of Madden's Infamous Treatises on 3D Printing That Aren't The Least Bit Interesting Now But Might Be Later....

Some background - I came into the rapid prototyping (RP) field with expertise in mold making and resin casting but none in the actual printing processes, so all I know about them comes from observation and a growing body of experience. Slicing is the data processing step by which a 3D CAD file is sliced into individual layers, with the resulting slices of data sent, one at a time, to the 3D printer. 3D Systems introduced high fidelity slicing in 2005 but our managers chose not to implement it. (It would only work on one of our six stereolithography [SLA] machines, the high resolution Viper, and it slows things down because slicing is done in real time and the machine would have to wait between layers for the data processing to catch up.) I wasn't even aware of it, nor were any of the shop supervisors. Basically, Hi-Fi slicing greatly reduces the jitter between layers so you get much smoother side walls - both vertical and contoured. It's an add-on to give better results with a machine's existing build modes, not a new build mode. By last fall our stable of SLA machines had grown to 14, eight of them Vipers. All of them have faster computers, so we upgraded the software and all the Vipers now run Hi-Fi slicing.

To be honest, Dennis, I was so blown away by the smooth surfaces that I when the SLA supervisor walked in with a flash drive and asked for one of my "miniature" designs for a demo run, I just went with those upper & lower tank shell files. The amazing thing is, those parts were built using the Viper's standard mode (.010" beam diameter, .004" layers) and not in high resolution mode (.003" beam diameter, .002" layers). Probably a good thing, because those tank bands are .006" thick and the SLA process won't build overhangs if the layer to layer offset is greater than about 75% of the beam diameter. (There has to be something underneath to build on. You can't create a .006" offset with a .003" beam.)

I don't know if a side wall with rivets etc. would build. I tried building the underframe that way, but it failed. For that, Shapeways and multi-jet modeling was the answer. There is no single RP process that does everything well, you still need lots of tools in your kit.

Care to give us a realistic cost number for someone who walks in off the street with usable STL files?
I'll check when I go in today.

Tom Madden


Re: Per Diem

Larry Kline
 

Thanks for the link to the history talk.

The change from daily to hourly per diem had a big negative impact on the finances of the WM. With daily per diem the WM was able to avoid per diem on most cars and had a significant net per diem income from per diem on WM cars on other RRs.

When hourly car hire started that income went away.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "soolinehistory" <destorzek@...> wrote:



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Francis A. Pehowic, Jr." <rdgbuff56@> wrote:

This may be off topic, but if so, can somebody steer me to the right group?  In this day of computers and electronic transfers per diem should be easy.  Is there still per diem on freight cars?
 
In the steam era it would seem a logistical nightmare.  How did they keep track of cars and transfer money?  How often?
The term is "car hire" today, because it's been an hourly rate, rather than daily, since the late seventies. Here is a Power Point presentation that will tell you more than you ever wanted to know:

http://tinyurl.com/lenkwr7

One thing it doesn't mention is frequency of settlement of charges, which during the era of interest on this list was monthly, IIRC. Remember, back in those days railroads had armies of clerks to handle this paperwork; it was a cost of doing business.

Back in that era, per diem was just a fact of life for most railroads; you paid per diem on foreign cars on your line, someone else paid you per diem on your cars that were off line, and hopefully, if each road owned the proper number of cars, it was a wash. Some smaller roads didn't own enough cars, and per diem was a continuing expense, which meant that there was incentive to manage it. That meant structuring the freight schedules to get as many cars as practical off the railroad before midnight. Little Chicago South Shore & South Bend was a good example, they ran a freight train nightly that was actually called the Per Diem, at least informally. The road did a heavy interchange with the New York Central, and the connection was on the east end of the railroad. Each evening a set of motors would leave Shops (Michigan City) westward after the commuter rush was over, run to Burnham Yard at the west end of the railroad to pick up all the NYC traffic, then head east. They'd stop again in Michigan City to pick up an additional block of NYC traffic that had been gathered during the day, then run like the wind to have the cars on the interchange before midnight. Fun train to try and chase.

Dennis

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