John,

Northern Arizona had at verious times some logging shortlines that interchanged with the Santa Fe around Flagstaff, so, depending on your timeframe, that gives you the option of having a shortline and a class 1 with lots of lumber/log trade.

Tom Casey

Mr. Miller,
I'll throw a Colorado road into the mix: The Great Western Railway served the front range ambling between sugar beet factories through the plains from Longmont to (almost) Ft. Collins. A great deal of agriculture loading (beans, sugar beets) were handled on line as well as the great variety of loads that come and go from a Sugar Factory. New hoppers as well as old drop bottom gons were pressed into service during the harvesting rush. Several 2-8-0's and a 2-10-0 provided service, and a wide variety of cars showed up to distribute sacked sugar to the nation. Light track, numerous interchanges (CB&Q, C&S, UP) as well as a great backdrop of the continental divide.

Best Regards,
Nick Gully

Hi John,

Like you I wanted to model a railroad that was uncommon, visually interesting but in New Mexico where I am originally from. I ended up with the El Paso & Southwestern at El Paso in 1919. Very interesting and a very cool railroad. So I understand full well what you are going through.

Before I recommend some interesting railroads I thought I would throw one at you that allows you to go out there and railfan because it is still there. It is the Utah Railway. Now I know that you might think of it as just a coal road, and it is, but from what I understand is that it shares trackage with the D&RGW into Provo. So there you go with your auto traffic, etc. Maybe some industrial switching as well.

Now here is the exciting part. Small locos: four 2-8-0s. medium locos: none. None????? I know that you wanted small and medium locos but the Utah Railway had some other steam locomotives that you might want to have.

Try this on for size. Nine 2-10-2s and three 2-8-8-0s. The best part is that those 12 engines are UP copies.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/santafe/utah103-davis.jpg

Cabooses are easy too. Four of them are second hand that the railroad inherited but the other eight are UP CA-1 copies.

There were also 2,000 coal gons that were lettered "Utah Coal Route" which is some kind of joint venture with the Los Angeles & Salt Lake (UP subsidiary). This is the Red Caboose coal gon with UP details.

See here --> http://utahrails.net/utah-ry/utah-ry-index.php

So imagine modeling Soldier Summit (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=soldier+summit+utah&qpvt=soldier+summit+utah&FORM=IGRE) with a Utah Ry 2-8-8-0 straining up the hill with a unit coal train while a D&RGW passenger train, such as the "Scenic Limited" or the "Panoramic" pulled by a 4-6-6-4, passes it by.

Everyone knows about the Utah Railway but they know it in today's version from six axle ALCOs to modern G&W power. But back in the 1930s you had, in my opinion, something much more interesting. And with the Utah Ry being so well known you are going to have a lot of research information being available.

So if you go this route I can picture you telling someone that you model the Utah Railway and you don't have to explain where it is and what it does. Then when you tell them about the 2-10-2s and 2-8-8-0s which are UP copies then you are pretty much guaranteed a "wow" factor. And to be honest, I don't think that it had large yards but a lot of sidings which make modeling them that much easier. On the other hand you have the joint trackage with the D&RGW into Provo. So you can pretty much find something that you like.

Here are some links to photos from the Denver library of motive power you could see on a Utah Railway layout with some Rio Grande thrown into the mix:

UTAH RAILWAY
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/65491/rec/221
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/65492/rec/222
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/65493/rec/223

D&RGW
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48797/rec/37
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48757/rec/43
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48850/rec/68
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48927/rec/69
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/49145/rec/71
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48988/rec/76
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48997/rec/77
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/49231/rec/78
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/48893/rec/61
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/52835/rec/113
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/52841/rec/116
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/53405/rec/130
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/53417/rec/133
http://cdm16079.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/53419/rec/134

(I know that there are more Rio Grande photos in this e-mail but that is what I can come up with right away)

BTW, the Utah Ry ran a McKeen motor car up until 1919. So you probably can include that if you want too.

If this is not what you are looking for then I can throw some more 1930s railroads at you but please give me a list of three must haves for your railroad.

- Steve Hedlund, Everett WA


________________________________
From: John Miller <amwing1588@sbcglobal.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 5, 2013 6:59 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Looking for a Short Line


 

Hi all,

I don't know if this is the correct venue to ask this, but I will anyway. I need help in discovering a short line RR set in the early to mid 1930's (depression era). I would like to be able to research it through visits, photo's and books and then build a layout and fill it with the correct types of rolling stock appropriate for that time period.
The short line I'm interested in modeling would have had it's own road name (or even one of a major line)along with it's own rolling stock, but would also move a lot of interchange cars along it's line and might include rolling stock...from milk cars, log cars, covered hoppers to 50' auto boxes and Oh ya...lots of small to medium steamers. I've been modeling the larger mainline roads for years, but just find myself yearning for something special. There are so many of these branch lines/short lines across the country, and that being said, I'd like to hear from you all, which ones you like and why. At this point, I don't have a geographical preference, so let the suggestions fly.

Thanks to all in advance.

John Miller
Folsom, CA.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This sounds like a candidate it had logging operations extending into Oregon and being connection between major railways and several smaller ones it should meet most of your criteria,
I beleive the CB&Q was also invloved
The Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway (SP&S) (reporting mark SPS) was a United States-based railroad incorporated in 1905. It was a joint venture by theGreat Northern Railway and the Northern Pacific Railway to build a railroad along the north bank of the Columbia River.
 Alan


________________________________
From: Richard White <rhwhite@botsnet.bw>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Looking for a Short Line



 
Hi John,
You are getting a flood of advice - here is something a bit different.
Have you thought of a freelance railroad on which you run prototype cars? Then you can tailor your road to what you want.
I am slowly (very slowly - like a train gingerly moving along a very run-down shortline with weed-grown tracks) building the 'Wisconsin Western' inspired by an article on the Milwaukee Road's mineral Point Branch in 'Scale Trains' (a short-lived British model railway magazine) and my links with the Land Tenure Centre at the University of Wisconsin. Mostly populated with catalogue Baldwins and a variety of early low axle-load diesels.
The two volumes of 'Railroads you can model' and 'More railroads you can model' published by Kalmbach in 1976 and 1979 cover several of the branchlines, small class 1 roads and shortlines mentioned by other members in this thread.
Good luck and have fun
Richard White

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Milk can be represented by a few milk cans. For example, one
doesn't normally think of the Great Northern when they think of
milk, but I know some of the GN branches in North Dakota moved
milk as LCL freight. I suspect milk was a common LCL cargo all
over the country.

GN would be a good "major" to look into, with its extensive
number of branch and secondary lines in the Dakotas and Minnesota,
vast amounts of documentation from books and the GNHS and a very
good web site. A lot of small GN steam has been produced too,
although most of it is brass.

Tim O'

Hi John,
You are getting a flood of advice - here is something a bit different.
Have you thought of a freelance railroad on which you run prototype cars? Then you can tailor your road to what you want.
I am slowly (very slowly - like a train gingerly moving along a very run-down shortline with weed-grown tracks) building the 'Wisconsin Western' inspired by an article on the Milwaukee Road's mineral Point Branch in 'Scale Trains' (a short-lived British model railway magazine) and my links with the Land Tenure Centre at the University of Wisconsin. Mostly populated with catalogue Baldwins and a variety of early low axle-load diesels.
The two volumes of 'Railroads you can model' and 'More railroads you can model' published by Kalmbach in 1976 and 1979 cover several of the branchlines, small class 1 roads and shortlines mentioned by other members in this thread.
Good luck and have fun
Richard White

Tony Thompson wrote:

... if you take this list literally, there is a real problem because

there effectively WEREN'T covered hoppers in the early to mid 1930s."

It depends upon the railroad and the location. By 1935 the B&O already
had over 100 covered hoppers, class N-25, converted from class N-13
open-top hoppers. Unfortunately it appears that most were assign to
cement service providing cement to many construction projects (dams) in
Pennsylvania.
In this period most covered hoppers were in assigned service so if the
proposed short line had such a customer as a destination one could
justified a few covered hoppers. The same ones making the trip. Covered
hoppers in "pool service" came much later at least on the B&O.
Bob Witt

Craig Zeni has mentioned it already, but I’ll second it – the NYO&W.

1) early to mid 1930s - The highest level of traffic was in this time
period.

2) researchable through visits, photos, books - Check, plus an active
historical society with a full set of track maps from the 1920s available
and more. Much of the ROW is now hiking trails, but is accessible.

3) move "a lot" of interchange - Bridge traffic from Scranton and Oswego to
Maybrook, NY. Interchanges with the NYC, D&H, NH, L&NE, L&HR and others.
Check.

4) milk cars, log cars, covered hoppers, 50' auto boxes... Milk cars - you
bet. Lots of them. Log cars - would wood flats count (used for servicing the
wood chemical industry)? Covered hoppers - sure, though probably later than
the early 1930s. 50' auto cars - on the through freights.

5) "lots of small to medium steamers" - Never had anything but, at least by
most standards... :>)

Bill Schneider
http://home.comcast.net/~oandw/


From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
Burn
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2013 11:02 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Looking for a Short Line

 
The covered hoppers and 50' auto boxes are a challenge for most 1930's short
lines, let alone ones with milk and logging. The milk, logging and multiple
small loco's (including multiple types) can be covered by the Montpelier and
Wells River or the St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County for a couple in New
England.

Don Burn

Not sure if it's practical to base a layout around a freight car roster. For me, top priority is finding something appealing that fits my space.
Clark Propst

Bruce Smith wrote:

I don't want to be "snarky" but the request by John Miller had some specific requirements. We can sit here for months and name shortlines and branches that were "cool" for so many reasons but that doesn't address the original request and I have no idea what purpose that serves. Frankly, some of the suggestions haven't even come close! Maybe if you addressed John's "druthers" it might help?

1) early to mid 1930s
2) researchable through visits, photos, books
3) move "a lot" of interchange
4) milk cars, log cars, covered hoppers, 50' auto boxes... (I'm not sure if John meant this to be a list of required car types or more that he wanted variety in the car types seen)

Very well said, Bruce, but we do need to apply some imagination here. As I already pointed out, if you take this list literally, there is a real problem because there effectively WEREN'T covered hoppers in the early to mid 1930s. So people have been doing a segue to alternatives. But of course Bruce is right, they have wandered farther and farther from the original "druthers."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

The covered hoppers and 50' auto boxes are a challenge for most 1930's short
lines, let alone ones with milk and logging. The milk, logging and multiple
small loco's (including multiple types) can be covered by the Montpelier and
Wells River or the St. Johnsbury and Lamoille County for a couple in New
England.

Don Burn

Well if the "majors" are not excluded, then the T&NO branch lines in Texas and Louisiana would fit all those "druthers".
Charlie

Folks,

I don't want to be "snarky" but the request by John Miller had some specific requirements. We can sit here for months and name shortlines and branches that were "cool" for so many reasons but that doesn't address the original request and I have no idea what purpose that serves. Frankly, some of the suggestions haven't even come close! Maybe if you addressed John's "druthers" it might help?

1) early to mid 1930s
2) researchable through visits, photos, books
3) move "a lot" of interchange
4) milk cars, log cars, covered hoppers, 50' auto boxes... (I'm not sure if John meant this to be a list of required car types or more that he wanted variety in the car types seen)
5) "lots of small to medium steamers" (so one or two won't cut it and much as I like overhead wires, electrics won't cut it....)

I'll note that John seemed to want an independent short line, but then backed off that saying it could be a "major". That is a relief since there are few independent short lines that would meet all of John's requirements.

I would also suggest to John that he needs to clarify what he is looking for in his model railroad. That is, what types of operation? How many trains? How many operators? Many of these questions are more suited for discussion on the opsig and layout design sig lists/web pages, but are integral in driving the requirements for this layout.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

The Wheeling and Lake Erie has the following to recommend it:

TWO books, written by John B. Corns, with photos etc., for your research pleasure. Also, the Nickel Plate Historical and Technical Society is a source of information.
The location in Ohio is near auto manufacturing plants, so auto cars are possible (but not common, probably). The nearby Nickel Plate got its first 50' auto cars in 1936, IIRC, so it's possible that one could
The Wheeling got its first covered hoppers in 1937, and are available from Funaro in resin. I don't know how much you want to keep this in the mid-30's, you might be willing to bend it to the mid-late 30's.
Much of the Wheeling's rolling stock was coal hoppers, similar to GLa twins and H21 quads (some kitbashing is needed to make these more accurate), and they got some Alternate Standard offset hoppers starting in 1936. They had a lot of gons, slightly more than the number of hoppers. Your best bets for modeling are the IM USRA composite gons, and the Walthers USRA mill gons, or kitbash the Accurail gons by adding plate ends. They hauled a lot of pipe out of the pipe mill in Lorain. For boxcars, the Red Caboose X29 (ARA) box car is accurate. For cabooses... you'd have to kitbash the Roundhouse wood caboose (turn to the NKPHTS Magazine article for two variations of this kitbash).
For steamers, the Bachmann 2-8-0, BLI Heavy Mikado, Bachmann 2-6-6-2, and Proto USRA 0-8-0 and 0-6-0 are available.
I model the W&LE in the late 30's. It might be a bit large for a "short line", but I think it has enough interchange that it might work for you.

Dean Payne

I remember one of the first train articles I ever read was about
a Wabash branchline in Missouri -- from Centralia to Columbia MO.
I'm pretty sure the article was in Model Railroader. There was a
Missouri Pacific connection at Columbia too.

Tim, that was MKT not Missouri Pacific that had a line to Columbia..

Jerry Michels

yes, cars could be derated by their owners.

In North Carolina there was the Aberdeen & Rockfish and the Cape Fear which served Fort Bragg. The Aberdeen & Rockfish, which has been covered in the press, had a 2-8-2 and then an EMD F. The Cape Fear operated an Alco RS1.
Gene Green

John,

You may want to take a look at the Nebraska-Kansas Railroad which was owned and operated by the Ideal Cement Plant at Superior, Nebraska. The railroad's sole purpose in life was to move the limestone rock from the quarries in Kansas to the cement plant located in Nebraska. The railroad was made famous at the time for being the shortest interstate railroad at roughly 4 miles long. When it started in 1914, it used an electric locomotive and then later went to steam and then finally diesel in 1960 until the plant and railroad closed in 1986.

The plant was switched by a CB&Q line that passed right beside the plant and the local town of Superior, Nebraska, had four railroads (CB&Q, MP, C&NW, AT&SF) which all interchanged the cement traffic with the Q. The plant shipped bagged cement in box cars and in addition, later shipped it in covered hoppers. The late 1940s-early 1950s would be a great time to model the plant and line. At that time the CB&Q used a doodlebug to pull 2-4 loaded cement covered hoppers to supplement the amount of traffic generated by the plant. The plant would receive box cars of dynamite for blasting, silica sand, plus other materials.

The Nebraska-Kansas line used two trains at a time on the line. One would be in the quarry being loaded while the other is at the plant dumping the rock. They would meet on a siding allowing each to pass. The car fleet consisted of a home built caboose/gang car plus flat cars that had large buckets used to carry the limestone rock and were dumped in to the crusher at the plant. South Platte Press recently published a book on it.

The cement plant switching and interchange traffic alone would be interesting to model if not the N-K railroad.

Nate

Not sure an electric railway can be "off the grid"...
hmmm maybe in a board-game sense-- is that where the phrase originated?
Scott Pitzer

On Aug 6, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Pat Wilkinson wrote:

[...]

If you really want to go off the grid, the Chicago, South Shore and South
Bend was electric, hauled lots of freight, and was/is only 80 miles long.

That brings the CRANDIC to mind, the second under-wires railroad I'd discovered after the Pacific Electric.
--
"Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!"
From Wolfgang Pauli, perpetrator of the Pauli Exclusion Principle