Date   

Re: Reporting marks

Andy Sperandeo
 

Hi Andy,

The answer to this is going to be all over the place. I don't remember when the ARA or AAR dropped the lines as a recommendation, but the Santa Fe decided on its own to eliminate them back in the 1920s. Then in 1940 and again in 1946, General American delivered ACF-design covered hoppers with the lines even though they were no longer specified by the ATSF – go figure!

So long,

Andy


On Friday, October 25, 2013 11:55 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
 
Andy Miller wrote:

 
In what year did railroads stop putting lines above and below freight car reporting marks?

      The lines were not mandatory and not all roads used them. Various roads discontinued their use at different times. The data I have indicates that in 1952, the AAR withdrew the recommendation (not requirement) of the lines, and numerous roads using them promptly stopped. But Guy Wilber, who has documentation, says he cannot find support for that date. SP stopped using lines in 1952.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Tank swapping

Richard Townsend
 

Just curious: how similar is the 6,000 gallon tank on the GATX Type 30 three-dome tank car to the 6,000 gallon three-dome tank that would be on either an ACF Type 27 or 21 frame?  And how similar is the 8,000 or 10,000 gallon tank on either the ACF Type 27 or 21 tank car to 8,000 or 10,000 gallon tank that would be on an GATX Type 30 frame?
 
Kitbashing minds want to know.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


Re: Fantasy Land

asychis@...
 

This response should be framed and placed in the STMFC Hall of Fame.  Well said Richard!
 
Jerry Michels


Re: Pressed Steel Car Co. builder's photos

wdzwonchyk
 

In a variety of books and online sources, D. K Retterer was credited fro photographs from the Standard Steel Car Company, Pressed Steel Car Company, and Middletown Car Company collections.  Some time ago, I tried to discover the current status of the man and his collection of photographs, and first heard on some forum that he had passed away, but subsquently was told he was still alive and well.  I have not gotten around to trying to contact him, but I beleive his address is in Marietta, GA.
Wayne M. Dzwonchyk 
 
 

On 10/25/13, cj riley wrote:
 
 

There are a number of early photos that I donated on the NMRA Kalmbach Library site. Unfortunately they are not identified as such but are under the CJ Riley collection.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


From: "tgregmrtn@..." <tgregmrtn@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pressed Steel Car Co. builder's photos

 
Dennis,
 
You might talk to Singer, I think Greedy might know.
 
John are you out there?
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
In a message dated 10/24/2013 6:58:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, destorzek@... writes:
 
Guys,

Does a Pressed Steel Car Co.  photo archives exist, is it accessible, and does anyone know where it's at?

Dennis Storzek



Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Fantasy Land (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Richard;

I didn't take it as a personal attack (more in the nature of you slapping me around and yelling "wake up, you're dreaming"), but I also did not think it was meant to inform manufacturers as to what they ought to produce, either. Just MY wish list.

And yes, I also spend MANY hours providing data packages and information to manufacturers, and advice on what I think they will sell, and few of them were on that list.

It is all I can do to just get resin manufacturers to do some of these cars....

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 1:13 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Fantasy Land



Eldon Gatwood offers us a two page list of wanted freight car models, to which Tim O'Connor adds another ten or so. Implied, though not specifically stated, is the desire that all of these be injection-molded plastic, which in today's market means ready-to-run.

Let me emphasize that what follows is in no way a personal attack on either of these gentlemen, who I know are highly knowledgeable and experienced historians and modelers. But really, guys, get a grip!

These periodic flights of fancy on the STMFC about the freight car models we "need" usually, as in this case, include a large number of obscure prototypes that most modelers have never even heard of, much less are desperate to have. And the main effect, in my opinion, is to convince model manufacturers that we have collectively lost our minds. Flying off into fantasy land may be an enjoyable aspect of the hobby for some of us, but publishing accounts of our fantasies reduces our credibility to near zero with the people who might actually produce the models we want. All the blather in the world about "the models we need" won't result in the production of even one actual model.

Talk is cheap. Coming up with the risk capital that has to be invested in tooling a new model, not to mention the time and effort required, is not. If you really want something, don't tell the manufacturers "you guys really ought to produce X"; they hear that all the time. Instead, find the drawings, find the roster information, find the photos - not just one or two but a comprehensive package of them - and then discreetly approach a manufacturer who might be interested in the project and try to convince them that, if they actually produce the model, it will actually sell well enough in the real world that they won't lose their shirts.

And I will add, in light of the discussion on this list about Tangent's new 6K three compartment tank car model, when a model is introduced and it's gorgeous, don't complain that it's the wrong model and they really should have done X, Y or Z instead.

Some of us on this list - you know who you are - have been quietly following this latter course of action for years. Sometimes we strike out. But sometimes we play a significant role in getting a fine model off the drawing board and into production. We seldom get paid at all, and if we do it's at the rate of about 25¢ an hour. Usually our compensation is that we get some freebies of the models we help to produce. But the models we want actually materialize. And if they sell well enough to cover the tooling and production costs and give the manufacturer a modest profit, then that manufacturer is much more likely to listen to us the next time we approach them with a project.

Richard Hendrickson





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Fantasy Land

Richard Hendrickson
 

Eldon Gatwood offers us a two page list of wanted freight car models, to which Tim O'Connor adds another ten or so. Implied, though not specifically stated, is the desire that all of these be injection-molded plastic, which in today's market means ready-to-run.

Let me emphasize that what follows is in no way a personal attack on either of these gentlemen, who I know are highly knowledgeable and experienced historians and modelers. But really, guys, get a grip!

These periodic flights of fancy on the STMFC about the freight car models we "need" usually, as in this case, include a large number of obscure prototypes that most modelers have never even heard of, much less are desperate to have. And the main effect, in my opinion, is to convince model manufacturers that we have collectively lost our minds. Flying off into fantasy land may be an enjoyable aspect of the hobby for some of us, but publishing accounts of our fantasies reduces our credibility to near zero with the people who might actually produce the models we want. All the blather in the world about "the models we need" won't result in the production of even one actual model.

Talk is cheap. Coming up with the risk capital that has to be invested in tooling a new model, not to mention the time and effort required, is not. If you really want something, don't tell the manufacturers "you guys really ought to produce X"; they hear that all the time. Instead, find the drawings, find the roster information, find the photos - not just one or two but a comprehensive package of them - and then discreetly approach a manufacturer who might be interested in the project and try to convince them that, if they actually produce the model, it will actually sell well enough in the real world that they won't lose their shirts.

And I will add, in light of the discussion on this list about Tangent's new 6K three compartment tank car model, when a model is introduced and it's gorgeous, don't complain that it's the wrong model and they really should have done X, Y or Z instead.

Some of us on this list - you know who you are - have been quietly following this latter course of action for years. Sometimes we strike out. But sometimes we play a significant role in getting a fine model off the drawing board and into production. We seldom get paid at all, and if we do it's at the rate of about 25¢ an hour. Usually our compensation is that we get some freebies of the models we help to produce. But the models we want actually materialize. And if they sell well enough to cover the tooling and production costs and give the manufacturer a modest profit, then that manufacturer is much more likely to listen to us the next time we approach them with a project.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Reporting marks

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Miller wrote:

 
In what year did railroads stop putting lines above and below freight car reporting marks?

      The lines were not mandatory and not all roads used them. Various roads discontinued their use at different times. The data I have indicates that in 1952, the AAR withdrew the recommendation (not requirement) of the lines, and numerous roads using them promptly stopped. But Guy Wilber, who has documentation, says he cannot find support for that date. SP stopped using lines in 1952.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Most needed car? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

And maybe, just maybe, we will get some of them, if we ask Santa! (I've been very, very good this year)

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 11:52 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



Gatwood, Elden wrote:

GATX Type 30 8k, plus an insulated version with dome platforms;
AC&F insulated 103 8k, with dome platforms;
Various AC&F and GATC acid tank cars;

Quite a list, Elden! But I sure agree with you about the tank cars.


Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history







Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Reporting marks

Tim O'Connor
 

Andy

According to many emails over the years, the lines were recommended only during
the period 1908 to 1910, but the practice continued for many years afterwards.
In fact, reporting marks in the form of initials have never been compulsory on
the sides of the cars (per Guy Wilber email).

Richard Hendrickson noted a few days ago that GATX discontinued the 1" bars
above and below their reporting marks in 1945.

Tim O'Connor



In what year did railroads stop putting lines above and below freight car reporting marks?
Regards,
Andy Miller


Re: Pressed Steel Car Co. builder's photos

CJ Riley
 

There are a number of early photos that I donated on the NMRA Kalmbach Library site. Unfortunately they are not identified as such but are under the CJ Riley collection.

 
CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA


From: "tgregmrtn@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pressed Steel Car Co. builder's photos

 
Dennis,
 
You might talk to Singer, I think Greedy might know.
 
John are you out there?
 
Greg Martin
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
In a message dated 10/24/2013 6:58:29 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, destorzek@... writes:
 
Guys,

Does a Pressed Steel Car Co.  photo archives exist, is it accessible, and does anyone know where it's at?

Dennis Storzek



Sunshine-IntMT-P2k Tank cars

Andy Carlson
 

Hello, I have some HO tank cars which I am offering for sale. All are new, and in undisturbed condition.
All are RTRs except for the Sunshine kits. Prices do not include shipping. If interested in any, or to get more information, please contact me off-list @

Sunshine Mint new undisturbed kits
SS#99.12 VENDOME GATC radial rivet tankcar........$49.00
SS#62.9  UTLX X5Insulated tankcar, steel walk/platform.....$49.00

LifeLike P2K ASSEMBLED tank cars-- $25.00/each
KANOTEX 8K #8312 silver tank black outlined billboard red lettering
KANOTEX same #8335
KANOTEX same #8231

Intermountain Assembled 8 K tank cars-priced at $24.00/each
#46301-17 Roberson Process black tank car #121
#46301-13 same, car #110
#46313-18 GLOBE OIL silver tank billboard black Ltr CTTX 8494
#46302-18 Shell Chemical silver tank SCMX 924

Intermountain Assembled 10K Canadian General Transit-priced $20/ea
#46211-13 CGTX # 1001 black tank (Have two cars)
#46211-14 CGTX # 1025 same
#46211-15 CGTX # 1048 same (Have two cars)
#46211-16 CGTX # 1063 same
#46211-17 CGTX # 1070 same (Have two cars)

I accept checks and money orders.
Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Reporting marks

Andy Miller
 

Since the cognoscente in our group did so well on my last question on the tank care dome diamonds, I have another.

 

In what year did railroads stop putting lines above and below freight car reporting marks?

 

Regards,

 

Andy Miller


Re: Most needed car?

Tony Thompson
 

Gatwood, Elden wrote:

 GATX Type 30 8k, plus an insulated version with dome platforms;
AC&F insulated 103 8k, with dome platforms;
Various AC&F and GATC acid tank cars; 

   Quite a list, Elden! But I sure agree with you about the tank cars.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Most needed car?

Steve H <nwicfan@...>
 

Hey Guys,
 
There is one car that you can see into the 1950s that hardly ever gets a mention. I doubt it was built in the tens of thousands but many, many railroads had them. And that is the Seley hopper. There are some variations but this is an iconic car, especially for the Southern and N&W.
 
Here are some examples of cars that I have with me at the moment:
MOBILE and OHIO
Series: 30000 to 30249
Original quantity: 250 cars
 
ST LOUIS SAN FRANCISCO
Series: 80400 to 80899
Original quantity: 500 cars
 
Series 81000 to 81299
Original quantity: 300 cars
 
SOUTHERN RAILROAD
Series: 105000 to 106999
Original quantity: 2,000 cars
 
Series: 282100 to 283964
Original quantity: 1,865 cars
 
- Steve

On Friday, October 25, 2013 6:47 AM, Mark Stamm <mark@euphoriatt.com> wrote:

 
This brings up an interesting question or questions what makes a specific freight car design a must have? Total number built, length of service, a unique characteristic. There some signature freight cars that meet all three of these criteria, but take away one and the numbers grow dramatically.  So what should the standard be, 1000 cars built in total or for one road, more than 25 years of service and how do you classify unique? Lets consider some examples.
One car that IMO covers all three categories is the LV Wrong Way Boxcar. Over the course of 20-25 years the LV had more than 2000 of this car in two different number series. To date this car has only been done in resin. Should it get it's chance in plastic? Another would be the PRR X29 from1930 past the end of this list the X29 was around in numbers exceeding 20,000 cars. You may not call it unique but the fact that a designed based on the 1923 ARA model with 8'6" inside height survived end as long as it did could be unique in and of itself.  It has been done by Red Caboose and in resin to cover most of the variations this car went through. Did the X29 have mass appeal or just mass?
What other cars should be done in something other than resin? Could we start with Ted's RMC Articles many of those have never been done in plastic.  I model an eastern road so for me I would like to have more than one LV boxcar but not at what it costs to do that in resin.  To me the resin car makers serve a noble propose they provide limited runs of cars that many not have mass appeal and I have a pile to build. Plastic because of cost needs to have a broader audience to manage costs and be profitable. I don't know what production costs are so I can't characterize the volume required to be successful.  I'm sure some else can comment on that topic. 

So what other freight are missing from our lives?


Mark P Stamm
mark@euphoriatt.com
Sent from my mobile device

On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:29 PM, <mguill1224@aol.com> wrote:


 
Re "most needed" NYC cars:  As someone stated earlier, the NYC had only 1000 33' inside stake AAR hoppers(Lot 733-H).  But the NYC did have 9000 31'6" 2210 CUFT inside stake hoppers plus 7150 31' 5 3/4" 2205 CUFT inside stake hoppers, none of which have been modeled to the best of my knowledge.  All of these inside stake hoppers were built between 1940 and 1953.
 
Now, going back a few decades, the NYC had 14800 30'0" 1660 CUFT outside stake hoppers built between 1909 and 1917.
 
So it is easy to see that there should be a substantial market for some accurate models of both inside stake and outside stake NYC hopper cars.  The NYCSHS probably has drawings and lettering diagrams for these cars.
 
Oh, throw in the 8500 USRA twin hoppers and the 4835 USRA post WWI clones to complete your roster.  There were also a lot of triple hoppers in the mix.
 
Submitted by Hugh T. Guillaume


---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Eric:  Thanks for the reply. 
Andrew Dahm



________________________________
From: "eric@..." <eric@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



 
Andrew, 


The list grew out of discussions for fleet building. I do enjoy building Westerfield and other resin kits, but the prospect of building a dozen of one kit to satisfy fleet needs looms as a mountain. Multiply that across ten or twelve different kits and the mountain grows larger. 


The question asked here was in regard to "Most Needed Signature Freight Car". The new Tangent tank car seemed to spur interest in what could be done next. Most everyone wants a common post-WW2 car design, but the remaining prototypes that were built in decent numbers are dwindling. It also seemed the audience wanted to consider this a mass produced, plastic product. What is left but several long-lived car designs from the era before 1930? Some of the prototypes on my list had more numbers built than all of the AAR 1932 steel sheathed box cars, and all of the B&O M-53 wagontop box cars, and all of the Milwaukee rib side box cars. We have models of each of those interesting prototypes available as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models. 


The list I posted was intended to open a few eyes to possible prototypes that were built in large numbers, had long service lives, but have not been produced as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models. I'd rather not see another USRA twin hopper or an AAR 1937 steel sheathed box car offered. There are quite a few charismatic prototype freight car designs that could really fill large holes in many model railroad fleets.


Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX  


---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Eric:  Nice list but I wondered if you are listing these cars because they need to be modeled or just as an example of cars that had large quantities built by Railroads?
 
Andrew Dahm



________________________________
From: "eric@..." <eric@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



 
Back in 2012, a group of pre-Depression modelers compiled a list of freight car models for mass production
consideration. 
In many cases here, 10,000-20,000 of the prototypes were
produced. The in-service numbers through WWII were strong on a number of these
individual freight car designs. Between 1946 and 1953, the in-service numbers
rapidly dwindled as a 1953 mandatory K brake upgrade pushed railroads to scrap
many older freight cars or move them to maintenance service.

 
New York Central Lines - 36-foot,
double-sheathed box cars with Murphy inverted corrugated ends
New York Central Lines - 40 foot,
double-sheathed, door-and-a-half automobile (XA) box cars
Pennsylvania Railroad - 40-foot GRa,
fishbelly side sill, composite gondolas
New York Central Lines - 46 foot,  fishbelly side sill, composite mill gons -
many rebuilt with steel replacing original wood sides
1905 common standard hoppers - several
railroads rostered these in the thousands
Union Tank Lines (UTLX) X-3 tank cars -
came in a few different gallon versions and an insulated version
Southern Railway -  36-foot, steel underframe, double-sheathed,
truss rod, box cars
Baltimore & Ohio - M-15 class 40
foot, double-sheathed, box cars
Merchants Despatch Transit (MDT) reefers
- 40 foot, double-sheathed, refrigerator cars
Harriman box cars - Southern Pacific,
Union Pacific, Illinois Central - 40 foot, double-sheathed, fishbelly side
sill, box cars
USRA 70-ton triple bay coal hopper - over
20,000 in service for Chesapeake & Ohio, and New York Central Lines
 
Here are some additional prototypes to consider. These were not produced in the quantity of those listed above but they are distinctive designs:

1924 ARA proposed standard XM-1
single-sheathed, Howe truss box car design - L&N, B&M, more

Seaboard Air Line B-3 or B-4 box car -
similarities to the XM-1 above
Atlantic Coast Line ventilated box car
(an updated version better than the old Con-Cor model)
wood vinegar tank car 


I'm looking forward to the Dominion/Fowler model from True Line Trains someday. I'd be even happier if a 6-foot door version was produced to cover several US roads.


I model 1926, YMMV.


Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX




---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Doug Harding wrote:
"What else is there?"
 
Signature cars for major roads that have not been sufficiently explored or analyzed, and the biggest elephant in the room is the New York Central.  What modelers think is covered and what we really need as steam era freight car modelers are two different things, and we really don't know what we don't know, even with the efforts of Jeff English in the late 1990s.
 
For example, the recent release of the Broadway Limited 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcar would lead you to believe that we have the most common boxcar covered.  However, the NYCS raised the IH of these cars during the production run, building large numbers of 9 ft 3 in and 10 ft IH cars.
 
Another example: what is the most common NYCS hopper car?  The USRA/USRA-design twin?  Bob Karig's early common standard?  Oddball IL offset twins?  It sure as heck isn't the AAR offset twin, which was a rare care on the NYCS - only 1000 cars!
 
How many?  Nobody really knows because nobody cares enough to go through the Byzantine lot system of the NYCS to really figure this out.
 
The B&O is another one - the M-53 and M-15 subclass wagontop boxcar were certainly signature cars of the railroad, but they were far outnumbered by the 1923 ARA alternate standard steel boxcars.
 
Additionally, there's another slamdunk that hasn't been done yet - the 10 ft IH postwar steel boxcar.  (The Intermountain car is a prototype unique to the GN.)  You can sell NYC Pacemaker boxcars and SP Overnight boxcars until the sun turns into a red giant, and that doesn't include the other prototypes!
 
 
Ben Hom 




Re: Most needed car?

Tim O'Connor
 

Elden Gatwood wrote (indented text)

   -- Numerous B&O 10' IH boxes, also 10' IH boxes for WM, EJ&E (8-foot door), Jersey and others;
   -- B&LE "37 AAR" 7-foot door box;
   -- P&LE "44 AAR" 40-foot boxes with overhanging diagonal panel roof;

Elden,

For some of the postwar 10' IH box cars, Intermountain already makes a
roof and a 10 panel body and postwar ends. All they would have to do is
package the correct combination of parts together. And cut a couple of
accurate doors. Some prototypes were welded (D&H) but probably not enough
to justify a new body tool.

Numerous 40 foot box cars had those ZU-eave roofs, not just P&LE and NYC.
That would be a very nice part to have.

   -- PRR X29B in its many schemes;
   -- NYC 40-foot box with proprietary ends, plus 50-footers, also;

Proprietary ends?? Are you talking about Despatch ends or something else?

   -- P&WV 40-foot AC&F 8-foot door box car;

Why isn't a Branchline model good for the P&WV box car?

   -- PRR X37, X37A and esp X37B, with Allan Wood r/b's; also X38, X38A 50-footers;
   -- NKP 50-foot Viking Roof double door auto box;

Can't you model the NKP car with the Proto 2000 model? That's what I did.

   -- PRR skid & cover gons (coil gons) - classes G31E and G36D;

Yeah good luck with that.

   -- Correct (accurate) USRA 46-foot gons in NYC, B&O, P&LE and PRR;
   -- PRR G22 container gons;

Westerfield? I know, not plastic, but how hard is it to build a gondola?

   -- PS-5 gondola, fixed end;

Which one? As far as I've been able to tell every order was different. We
really do need more fixed end gondolas -- Drop end mill gons were much less
numerous than fixed end gons.

   -- PRR G36 gon;
   -- P&LE (P2K) "Greenville" gons in CORRECT later schemes;

Well gee that's just paint & decals ain't it?

   -- B&O, NKP, WM gons with Bethehem coil steel hoods;
   -- B&O N-35 hopper;
   -- Numerous different NYC twin and triple hoppers;
   -- PRR H35 hopper;
   -- URR, McKeesport Connecting, Lake Terminal, B&LE 50-IL pipe gon;

Elden what are you smoking? :-)

   -- Early PS-1 box car;

Now you're talking! But we'd probably have to compromise and settle on only
one prototype, since they were not all exactly alike.

   -- PRR X50, X51 and X55 50-foot box cars;
   -- PRR F25 flat car;
   -- PRR F41 flat car;

F41? Isn't that just a General Steel 53'6" flat with some minor differences?

   -- PRR F29 flat cars, with loads;
   -- UTLX X-3 8k;

Gad. ANY X-3 in plastic, PLEASE.

   -- GATX Type 30 8k, plus an insulated version with dome platforms;

Tangent's got the Type 30 underframe. Are new tank bodies possible? Or maybe
Tom Madden or someone can produce resin bodies for the Tangent underframe?

   -- AC&F insulated 103 8k, with dome platforms;

Yes. But prewar, or postwar?

   -- Various AC&F and GATC acid tank cars;
   -- GAEX Evans 50-foot box car;

Again, how is the Branchline 50 foot car not good for that?

   -- Linde 40-foot "tank" box cars..

Really, all you need is a new end for Branchline cars with the small door.
And decals of course.

   -- I could go on and on, but that's probably enough,

Not at all. I would add:

  GSC 125 ton depressed center flat cars (3-axle trucks)

  PFE R-40-26 plug door reefers

  FGE-built early 50' mechanical reefers

  Any 50' Santa Fe mechanical reefer!

  MDT postwar steel reefers (Despatch roofs and ends)

  Pullman Standard 3219 cft 3 bay covered hoppers (appeared in late 50's)

  ACF 16,000 & 19,000 gallon full-frame single dome ICC 103 tank cars

I'm sure there are many more...

Tim O'Connor




Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Re: Most needed car? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Mark;

All of the above. We all want what we want, usually to "staff up" a layout, and representing what we see as our "most accurate" fleet representation, both for home and other roads. That usually means "statistically representative" cars from both. This is a huge task, and many could chime in with their proposals. I have my fleet list for my portion of the PRR, which includes many specialty cars for the industries served on it, or interchanged thereon. Here are some I would like to see in HO, plastic; kit or RTR:

Numerous B&O 10' IH boxes, also 10' IH boxes for WM, EJ&E (8-foot door), Jersey and others;

B&LE "37 AAR" 7-foot door box;

P&LE "44 AAR" 40-foot boxes with overhanging diagonal panel roof;

PRR X29B in its many schemes;

NYC 40-foot box with proprietary ends, plus 50-footers, also;

P&WV 40-foot AC&F 8-foot door box car;

PRR X37, X37A and esp X37B, with Allan Wood r/b's; also X38, X38A 50-footers;

NKP 50-foot Viking Roof double door auto box;

PRR skid & cover gons (coil gons) - classes G31E and G36D;

Correct (accurate) USRA 46-foot gons in NYC, B&O, P&LE and PRR;

PRR G22 container gons;

PS-5 gondola, fixed end;

PRR G36 gon;

P&LE (P2K) "Greenville" gons in CORRECT later schemes;

B&O, NKP, WM gons with Bethehem coil steel hoods;

B&O N-35 hopper;

Numerous different NYC twin and triple hoppers;

PRR H35 hopper;

URR, McKeesport Connecting, Lake Terminal, B&LE 50-IL pipe gon;

Early PS-1 box car;

PRR X50, X51 and X55 50-foot box cars;

PRR F25 flat car;

PRR F41 flat car;

PRR F29 flat cars, with loads;

UTLX X-3 8k;

GATX Type 30 8k, plus an insulated version with dome platforms;

AC&F insulated 103 8k, with dome platforms;

Various AC&F and GATC acid tank cars;

GAEX Evans 50-foot box car;

Linde 40-foot "tank" box cars..

I could go on and on, but that's probably enough,

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Stamm
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 9:45 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



This brings up an interesting question or questions what makes a specific freight car design a must have? Total number built, length of service, a unique characteristic. There some signature freight cars that meet all three of these criteria, but take away one and the numbers grow dramatically. So what should the standard be, 1000 cars built in total or for one road, more than 25 years of service and how do you classify unique? Lets consider some examples.
One car that IMO covers all three categories is the LV Wrong Way Boxcar. Over the course of 20-25 years the LV had more than 2000 of this car in two different number series. To date this car has only been done in resin. Should it get it's chance in plastic? Another would be the PRR X29 from1930 past the end of this list the X29 was around in numbers exceeding 20,000 cars. You may not call it unique but the fact that a designed based on the 1923 ARA model with 8'6" inside height survived end as long as it did could be unique in and of itself. It has been done by Red Caboose and in resin to cover most of the variations this car went through. Did the X29 have mass appeal or just mass?
What other cars should be done in something other than resin? Could we start with Ted's RMC Articles many of those have never been done in plastic. I model an eastern road so for me I would like to have more than one LV boxcar but not at what it costs to do that in resin. To me the resin car makers serve a noble propose they provide limited runs of cars that many not have mass appeal and I have a pile to build. Plastic because of cost needs to have a broader audience to manage costs and be profitable. I don't know what production costs are so I can't characterize the volume required to be successful. I'm sure some else can comment on that topic.

So what other freight are missing from our lives?

Mark P Stamm
mark@euphoriatt.com

Sent from my mobile device

On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:29 PM, <mguill1224@aol.com> wrote:







Re "most needed" NYC cars: As someone stated earlier, the NYC had only 1000 33' inside stake AAR hoppers(Lot 733-H). But the NYC did have 9000 31'6" 2210 CUFT inside stake hoppers plus 7150 31' 5 3/4" 2205 CUFT inside stake hoppers, none of which have been modeled to the best of my knowledge. All of these inside stake hoppers were built between 1940 and 1953.



Now, going back a few decades, the NYC had 14800 30'0" 1660 CUFT outside stake hoppers built between 1909 and 1917.



So it is easy to see that there should be a substantial market for some accurate models of both inside stake and outside stake NYC hopper cars. The NYCSHS probably has drawings and lettering diagrams for these cars.



Oh, throw in the 8500 USRA twin hoppers and the 4835 USRA post WWI clones to complete your roster. There were also a lot of triple hoppers in the mix.



Submitted by Hugh T. Guillaume



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Eric: Thanks for the reply.
Andrew Dahm

From: "eric@..." <eric@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



Andrew,

The list grew out of discussions for fleet building. I do enjoy building Westerfield and other resin kits, but the prospect of building a dozen of one kit to satisfy fleet needs looms as a mountain. Multiply that across ten or twelve different kits and the mountain grows larger.

The question asked here was in regard to "Most Needed Signature Freight Car". The new Tangent tank car seemed to spur interest in what could be done next. Most everyone wants a common post-WW2 car design, but the remaining prototypes that were built in decent numbers are dwindling. It also seemed the audience wanted to consider this a mass produced, plastic product. What is left but several long-lived car designs from the era before 1930? Some of the prototypes on my list had more numbers built than all of the AAR 1932 steel sheathed box cars, and all of the B&O M-53 wagontop box cars, and all of the Milwaukee rib side box cars. We have models of each of those interesting prototypes available as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models.

The list I posted was intended to open a few eyes to possible prototypes that were built in large numbers, had long service lives, but have not been produced as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models. I'd rather not see another USRA twin hopper or an AAR 1937 steel sheathed box car offered. There are quite a few charismatic prototype freight car designs that could really fill large holes in many model railroad fleets.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Hi Eric: Nice list but I wondered if you are listing these cars because they need to be modeled or just as an example of cars that had large quantities built by Railroads?

Andrew Dahm

From: "eric@..." <eric@...>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?



Back in 2012, a group of pre-Depression modelers compiled a list of freight car models for mass production consideration.
In many cases here, 10,000-20,000 of the prototypes were produced. The in-service numbers through WWII were strong on a number of these individual freight car designs. Between 1946 and 1953, the in-service numbers rapidly dwindled as a 1953 mandatory K brake upgrade pushed railroads to scrap many older freight cars or move them to maintenance service.


New York Central Lines - 36-foot, double-sheathed box cars with Murphy inverted corrugated ends
New York Central Lines - 40 foot, double-sheathed, door-and-a-half automobile (XA) box cars
Pennsylvania Railroad - 40-foot GRa, fishbelly side sill, composite gondolas
New York Central Lines - 46 foot, fishbelly side sill, composite mill gons - many rebuilt with steel replacing original wood sides
1905 common standard hoppers - several railroads rostered these in the thousands
Union Tank Lines (UTLX) X-3 tank cars - came in a few different gallon versions and an insulated version
Southern Railway - 36-foot, steel underframe, double-sheathed, truss rod, box cars
Baltimore & Ohio - M-15 class 40 foot, double-sheathed, box cars
Merchants Despatch Transit (MDT) reefers - 40 foot, double-sheathed, refrigerator cars
Harriman box cars - Southern Pacific, Union Pacific, Illinois Central - 40 foot, double-sheathed, fishbelly side sill, box cars
USRA 70-ton triple bay coal hopper - over 20,000 in service for Chesapeake & Ohio, and New York Central Lines

Here are some additional prototypes to consider. These were not produced in the quantity of those listed above but they are distinctive designs:

1924 ARA proposed standard XM-1 single-sheathed, Howe truss box car design - L&N, B&M, more

Seaboard Air Line B-3 or B-4 box car - similarities to the XM-1 above
Atlantic Coast Line ventilated box car (an updated version better than the old Con-Cor model)
wood vinegar tank car

I'm looking forward to the Dominion/Fowler model from True Line Trains someday. I'd be even happier if a 6-foot door version was produced to cover several US roads.

I model 1926, YMMV.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <stmfc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Doug Harding wrote:
"What else is there?"

Signature cars for major roads that have not been sufficiently explored or analyzed, and the biggest elephant in the room is the New York Central. What modelers think is covered and what we really need as steam era freight car modelers are two different things, and we really don't know what we don't know, even with the efforts of Jeff English in the late 1990s.

For example, the recent release of the Broadway Limited 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcar would lead you to believe that we have the most common boxcar covered. However, the NYCS raised the IH of these cars during the production run, building large numbers of 9 ft 3 in and 10 ft IH cars.

Another example: what is the most common NYCS hopper car? The USRA/USRA-design twin? Bob Karig's early common standard? Oddball IL offset twins? It sure as heck isn't the AAR offset twin, which was a rare care on the NYCS - only 1000 cars!

How many? Nobody really knows because nobody cares enough to go through the Byzantine lot system of the NYCS to really figure this out.

The B&O is another one - the M-53 and M-15 subclass wagontop boxcar were certainly signature cars of the railroad, but they were far outnumbered by the 1923 ARA alternate standard steel boxcars.

Additionally, there's another slamdunk that hasn't been done yet - the 10 ft IH postwar steel boxcar. (The Intermountain car is a prototype unique to the GN.) You can sell NYC Pacemaker boxcars and SP Overnight boxcars until the sun turns into a red giant, and that doesn't include the other prototypes!


Ben Hom









Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Eastman Heater Car

Dennis Williams
 

Marty. I am build 2 of them now. Interesting, they are plywood. Strong. Dennis. Resinbuilders4u


------------------------------

On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 6:35 AM PDT Marty McGuirk wrote:



I was looking for some stripwood for a totally non-freight car related project when I ran across this on the Northeastern Scale Models web site:

http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/shop/kits/eastheat.html



Having stopped using wood for my HO scale freight cars years ago, I make no claims as to the authenticity of the model, nor do I have any idea how detailed or correct  the model is. And I certainly wouldn't put in the "Needed Car" category (well, maybe a close second on that list to the UP HK-50-4). But it does seem to be a unique early-20th car that some may be interested in. I certainly hadn't heard of it.



Marty McGuirk


Re: Eastman Heater Car

Benjamin Hom
 

Marty McGuirk asked:
"I was looking for some stripwood for a totally non-freight car related project when I ran across this on the Northeastern Scale Models web site:
http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/shop/kits/eastheat.html
 
Having stopped using wood for my HO scale freight cars years ago, I make no claims as to the authenticity of the model, nor do I have any idea how detailed or correct the model is. And I certainly wouldn't put in the "Needed Car" category (well, maybe a close second on that list to the UP HK-50-4). But it does seem to be a unique early-20th car that some may be interested in. I certainly hadn't heard of it."
 
Marty, nothing on this specific car, but the PRR did purchase Class XD boxcars equipped with Eastman Heaters.  Model Railroader ran an scratchbuilding article by Peter Barney in the June 1984 issue.
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=XD.gif&sel=box&sz=sm&fr=
 
 
Ben Hom


Re: Most needed car?

Mark Stamm
 

This brings up an interesting question or questions what makes a specific freight car design a must have? Total number built, length of service, a unique characteristic. There some signature freight cars that meet all three of these criteria, but take away one and the numbers grow dramatically.  So what should the standard be, 1000 cars built in total or for one road, more than 25 years of service and how do you classify unique? Lets consider some examples.
One car that IMO covers all three categories is the LV Wrong Way Boxcar. Over the course of 20-25 years the LV had more than 2000 of this car in two different number series. To date this car has only been done in resin. Should it get it's chance in plastic? Another would be the PRR X29 from1930 past the end of this list the X29 was around in numbers exceeding 20,000 cars. You may not call it unique but the fact that a designed based on the 1923 ARA model with 8'6" inside height survived end as long as it did could be unique in and of itself.  It has been done by Red Caboose and in resin to cover most of the variations this car went through. Did the X29 have mass appeal or just mass?
What other cars should be done in something other than resin? Could we start with Ted's RMC Articles many of those have never been done in plastic.  I model an eastern road so for me I would like to have more than one LV boxcar but not at what it costs to do that in resin.  To me the resin car makers serve a noble propose they provide limited runs of cars that many not have mass appeal and I have a pile to build. Plastic because of cost needs to have a broader audience to manage costs and be profitable. I don't know what production costs are so I can't characterize the volume required to be successful.  I'm sure some else can comment on that topic. 

So what other freight are missing from our lives?

Mark P Stamm

Sent from my mobile device

On Oct 24, 2013, at 10:29 PM, <mguill1224@...> wrote:

 

Re "most needed" NYC cars:  As someone stated earlier, the NYC had only 1000 33' inside stake AAR hoppers(Lot 733-H).  But the NYC did have 9000 31'6" 2210 CUFT inside stake hoppers plus 7150 31' 5 3/4" 2205 CUFT inside stake hoppers, none of which have been modeled to the best of my knowledge.  All of these inside stake hoppers were built between 1940 and 1953.

 

Now, going back a few decades, the NYC had 14800 30'0" 1660 CUFT outside stake hoppers built between 1909 and 1917.

 

So it is easy to see that there should be a substantial market for some accurate models of both inside stake and outside stake NYC hopper cars.  The NYCSHS probably has drawings and lettering diagrams for these cars.

 

Oh, throw in the 8500 USRA twin hoppers and the 4835 USRA post WWI clones to complete your roster.  There were also a lot of triple hoppers in the mix.

 

Submitted by Hugh T. Guillaume



---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote:

Hi Eric:  Thanks for the reply. 
Andrew Dahm

From: "eric@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?

 
Andrew, 

The list grew out of discussions for fleet building. I do enjoy building Westerfield and other resin kits, but the prospect of building a dozen of one kit to satisfy fleet needs looms as a mountain. Multiply that across ten or twelve different kits and the mountain grows larger. 

The question asked here was in regard to "Most Needed Signature Freight Car". The new Tangent tank car seemed to spur interest in what could be done next. Most everyone wants a common post-WW2 car design, but the remaining prototypes that were built in decent numbers are dwindling. It also seemed the audience wanted to consider this a mass produced, plastic product. What is left but several long-lived car designs from the era before 1930? Some of the prototypes on my list had more numbers built than all of the AAR 1932 steel sheathed box cars, and all of the B&O M-53 wagontop box cars, and all of the Milwaukee rib side box cars. We have models of each of those interesting prototypes available as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models. 

The list I posted was intended to open a few eyes to possible prototypes that were built in large numbers, had long service lives, but have not been produced as plastic, injection-mold, mass market models. I'd rather not see another USRA twin hopper or an AAR 1937 steel sheathed box car offered. There are quite a few charismatic prototype freight car designs that could really fill large holes in many model railroad fleets.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX  


---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote:

Hi Eric:  Nice list but I wondered if you are listing these cars because they need to be modeled or just as an example of cars that had large quantities built by Railroads?
 
Andrew Dahm

From: "eric@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car?

 
Back in 2012, a group of pre-Depression modelers compiled a list of freight car models for mass production consideration. 
In many cases here, 10,000-20,000 of the prototypes were produced. The in-service numbers through WWII were strong on a number of these individual freight car designs. Between 1946 and 1953, the in-service numbers rapidly dwindled as a 1953 mandatory K brake upgrade pushed railroads to scrap many older freight cars or move them to maintenance service.
 
New York Central Lines - 36-foot, double-sheathed box cars with Murphy inverted corrugated ends
New York Central Lines - 40 foot, double-sheathed, door-and-a-half automobile (XA) box cars
Pennsylvania Railroad - 40-foot GRa, fishbelly side sill, composite gondolas
New York Central Lines - 46 foot,  fishbelly side sill, composite mill gons - many rebuilt with steel replacing original wood sides
1905 common standard hoppers - several railroads rostered these in the thousands
Union Tank Lines (UTLX) X-3 tank cars - came in a few different gallon versions and an insulated version
Southern Railway -  36-foot, steel underframe, double-sheathed, truss rod, box cars
Baltimore & Ohio - M-15 class 40 foot, double-sheathed, box cars
Merchants Despatch Transit (MDT) reefers - 40 foot, double-sheathed, refrigerator cars
Harriman box cars - Southern Pacific, Union Pacific, Illinois Central - 40 foot, double-sheathed, fishbelly side sill, box cars
USRA 70-ton triple bay coal hopper - over 20,000 in service for Chesapeake & Ohio, and New York Central Lines
 
Here are some additional prototypes to consider. These were not produced in the quantity of those listed above but they are distinctive designs:
1924 ARA proposed standard XM-1 single-sheathed, Howe truss box car design - L&N, B&M, more
Seaboard Air Line B-3 or B-4 box car - similarities to the XM-1 above
Atlantic Coast Line ventilated box car (an updated version better than the old Con-Cor model)
wood vinegar tank car 

I'm looking forward to the Dominion/Fowler model from True Line Trains someday. I'd be even happier if a 6-foot door version was produced to cover several US roads.

I model 1926, YMMV.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX



---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote:

Doug Harding wrote:
"What else is there?"
 
Signature cars for major roads that have not been sufficiently explored or analyzed, and the biggest elephant in the room is the New York Central.  What modelers think is covered and what we really need as steam era freight car modelers are two different things, and we really don't know what we don't know, even with the efforts of Jeff English in the late 1990s.
 
For example, the recent release of the Broadway Limited 8 ft 7 in IH USRA-design steel boxcar would lead you to believe that we have the most common boxcar covered.  However, the NYCS raised the IH of these cars during the production run, building large numbers of 9 ft 3 in and 10 ft IH cars.
 
Another example: what is the most common NYCS hopper car?  The USRA/USRA-design twin?  Bob Karig's early common standard?  Oddball IL offset twins?  It sure as heck isn't the AAR offset twin, which was a rare care on the NYCS - only 1000 cars!
 
How many?  Nobody really knows because nobody cares enough to go through the Byzantine lot system of the NYCS to really figure this out.
 
The B&O is another one - the M-53 and M-15 subclass wagontop boxcar were certainly signature cars of the railroad, but they were far outnumbered by the 1923 ARA alternate standard steel boxcars.
 
Additionally, there's another slamdunk that hasn't been done yet - the 10 ft IH postwar steel boxcar.  (The Intermountain car is a prototype unique to the GN.)  You can sell NYC Pacemaker boxcars and SP Overnight boxcars until the sun turns into a red giant, and that doesn't include the other prototypes!
 
 
Ben Hom 





Eastman Heater Car

Marty McGuirk
 

I was looking for some stripwood for a totally non-freight car related project when I ran across this on the Northeastern Scale Models web site:

http://www.northeasternscalelumber.com/shop/kits/eastheat.html

 

Having stopped using wood for my HO scale freight cars years ago, I make no claims as to the authenticity of the model, nor do I have any idea how detailed or correct the model is. And I certainly wouldn't put in the "Needed Car" category (well, maybe a close second on that list to the UP HK-50-4). But it does seem to be a unique early-20th car that some may be interested in. I certainly hadn't heard of it.

 

Marty McGuirk

 

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