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Seley Hoppers
Steve H <nwicfan@...>
Hey Guys, During a recent thread, Seley hoppers were brought up and I thought that I would see how long they actually lasted. B&O N11-class 130020-series cars: 1911: 1,969 cars; 1930: 228 cars; 1935: 0 cars Southern RY 282100-series cars: 1930: 1,863 cars; 1950: 1,784 cars; 1955: 110 cars SLSF 80400-series cars: 1911: 495 cars; 1925: 464 cars; 1930: 29 cars I'll grant anyone by saying that compared to other hopper types, there were not many made but they could be on-par with USRA hoppers (not USRA copies) and Mather cars. Not sure about that but it seems that way to me. I am not a freight car expert by any stretch but every now and then I'll see a photo of a Seley hopper pop
up. So to me, having one or two or three Seley hoppers on a layout makes sense to me. BTW, I don't know what series the N&W, D&H and other users of Seley hoppers were but I just grabbed three Seley cars and just followed the bread crumbs. Obviously most cars didn't make it past the Great Depression. But neither did Billboard reefers or Heinz reefers. Just saying. - Steve Hedlund
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AUTOMOBILE SHIPMENTS IN BOX CARS IN THE 1950S (edit)
Guy Wilber
Sorry all, my first effort was not complete when I accidentally hit
the "send" button.
Bill wrote:
"The recent issue of Trains Magazine has a number of articles on the shipment of automobiles via rail but is a bit vague about the timeline for the use of box cars." The article is not only vague on that timeline, but also
fails to mention the use of the Evans Auto~Loader or the NYC Railroad's two
designs of auto loaders. Though it is not my intent to critique author
Peter Hansen, I will state that to ignore the significance of these
loading systems, coupled with their impact upon the shipment of
finished automobiles and light trucks, is to ignore a, if not the, major
factor within the railroads' transport of motor vehicles from
1933 thru the mid 1960's.
I will note (again) that early shipping methods, even
when utilizing 36' foot box cars prior to the mass purchases of double door auto
cars, routinely employed methods which allowed for four (or more) vehicles
to be loaded within cars. Double decking and tilting cars in much the
same manner as the future auto loaders was common place and essential
in order to meet minimum weights specified within tariffs. It must
be borne in mind that an average automobile produced in the 'teens weighed
less than a ton. Ford; not alone in shipping multiple vehicles,
whether knocked down or complete, didn't require a fifty ton automobile car
to transport his product.
"It has been my understanding -- perhaps misguided -- that
automobile shipments after WWII moved from rail to highway over the road trailer
and very few cars were shipped in box cars at this time period."
Railroads lost the majority share of new, fully assembled,
auto and light truck shipments to trucking in 1932, and never recaptured that
advantage until after 1960. Prior to the 1930's, shipments of automobiles
and light trucks were dominated by the railroads. In 1932 51.5% of
new autos and light trucks were delivered by truck or so-called "drive-aways"--
the latter two methods of delivery were grouped statistically (during that
period), thus it is hard to derive the true percentage hauled by
truck.
None-the less, the railroads maintained an average of
around 40% of the finished motor vehicle traffic during the pre-war
years. When auto production resumed in 1945 the railroads continued a
down hill slide in shipments due in part to; equipment in disrepair,
manufacturers operating more regional assembly plants and rate wars with
trucking interests.
"1) is my understanding of the shipment of automobiles via rail correct?" No, the railroads still handled a good portion of
the automobile and light truck traffic during the post war years from which they
received a higher profit per ton than virtually any other
commodity.
"2) were automobiles being shipped in box cars into the 1950's?" Yes, by the thousands.
"3) if YES, then what makes were shipped by
rail?"
Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick,
Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, Checker, DeSoto, Hudson,
Kaiser, Nash, Packard, Studebaker, Willys and Crosley.
"4) after WWII was box car shipment of automobiles, if shipped in a box car, done using 40-foot or 50-foot box cars?" 40-foot auto cars equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders
outnumbered 50-foot auto cars (so equipped) until mid-1957. For your year
of interest; 1953, there were well over 18.000 40-foot cars and around 11,000
50-footers. 40-foot cars were as well suited as their 50-foot companions
when small to mid-sized vehicles were shipped.
50-foot cars were purchased in large part to serve the
small truck market as well as autos. The racks were equipped with wide
wheel pans which allowed either automobiles or trucks to be
loaded. The extra length coupled with generally (at least) a 10'
6" inside height allowed larger, and longer vehicles to be more easily
positioned on the floor of the car once the vehicle placed on the rack had been
raised and secured for shipment. A common load for such cars was two
automobiles placed on the racks and two light trucks placed on the floor.
Also, a good percentage of 50-foot cars were equipped with Type "F"
loaders (with sixteen floor tubes) which along with Evans final
model, the Type "G" could accommodate five automobiles.
Regards,
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Hi,
I have a bag of 000 lead shot (aka "triple ought"). It fits just about any where and can be glued in place using white glue. I have found that lead shot does not want to go where I want it to when attempting to 'pour' it into the recesses on the under side of a flat car and so I use a pair of tweezers and drop the shot into place one at a time. A light coating of white glue (or KK) in the space before you drop in the shot helps keep it where you want it. It only takes about 10 minutes to do one layer in all the spaces you might want it. Take care to balance the lead as you go so you don't get the car off kilter. - Jim Betz
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Re: Most needed car?
Andrew,
Right now I do not have a pic of the boxcar in question but I will soon. My point-and-shoot camera, even though it is digital, just does not do close-up work very well. So I have arranged to have a friend come here to photograph my layout, some of my brass locomotives and some of my rolling stock. The pics will then be made available to Noel Widdifield for his NYC Modeler e-zine.
As for the car that I kitbashed, it started life as a Des Plaines Valley Car & Foundry 1916-12 New York Central/Michigan Central boxcar. I applied the sides from Westerfield kit number 3000. The result is fairly good although if I were to do it again the result would be better. I built the car about twelve years ago.
Thank you for your interest.
Hugh T. Guillaume
From: "mguill1224@..." <mguill1224@...>
To: STMFC@... Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 8:20 PM Subject: RE: RE: Re: RE: Re: [STMFC] Re: Most needed car? I doubt that many people ever did this, but I did combine body and roof parts from two Westerfield kits to make one NYC boxcar that Al never offered. It turned out rather well although no one who has seen the model has ever asked me about it, probably because it is too esoteric a prototype. Hugh T. Guillaume ---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote: Ben, I understand what you are saying, but if you look back through the NYCSHS Central Headlights over the last many years, you will find articles with all sorts of details for the modeler and most of the NYCS equipment. What is happening is that fewer and fewer modelers are interested in building from scratch. I know that all of you are totally dedicated to that, but as the editor of the NYCentral Modeler I cannot find anyone interested in writing about scratchbuilding or even kitbashing NYC models. I would welcome any contributions from any of the many fine modelers in this Group to write an article or two about their NYC modeling. Just let me know if you are interested and I will send you some of the materials we have available to help potential authors. I can't publish it if no one writes it. Thanks, Noel ---In STMFC@..., <stmfc@...> wrote: Noel Widdefield wrote: "The NYCSHS is no longer Byzantine. We have made several changes over the last two years and I think you would find that we are now in the business of helping modelers. Check out our website http://www.nycshs.og/ You will find that we have published several editions of an online NYCentral Modeler magazine and have offered several new NYC models and have several more in the pipeline." Noel, these efforts are certainly steps in the right direction and are defintely appreciated. However, one of the things that would help the hobby the most is effort directed towards "big picture" projects such as ones that would answer the questions that I asked in my previous posts - what do modelers and manufacturers really need to know about modeling the New York Central System? These are admittedly not easy projects, and it will take concerted effort by people who know what they are doing to get them right. Right now, you're only bumping along the edges of the iceberg. For examples of what I mean, see the Elden Gatwood's articles on gons, Bruce Smith and Elden's articles on flat cars, and my articles on boxcars in earlier issues of The Keystone Modeler, and PRRT&HS flat car and gon books. Ben Hom
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Re: AUTOMOBILE SHIPMENTS IN BOX CARS IN THE 1950S
Al Campbell
Hello: I recall 1957 or 1958 Nash Ramblers arriving at Salem MA in 40' box
cars. I don't know the type of loaders that were used but remember that they
were stacked 2 over 2. Wondered at the time how the top cars were unloaded. Wish
I were more attuned to railroad practices at the time. Regards, Al
Campbell
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FW: Lead shot in flat cars
Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
I meant to say atomic weight, not atomic number.
Nelson Moyer
-----Original Message-----
From: Nelson Moyer [mailto:ku0a@...] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:19 PM To: 'STMFC@...' Subject: RE: [STMFC] Lead shot in flat cars
Look at the periodic table. Zn has an atomic number of 65.38, while Pb has an atomic number of 207.2, so lead is a lot heaver then zinc.
Nelson Moyer
-----Original Message-----
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
Look at the periodic table. Zn has an atomic number of 65.38, while Pb has an atomic number of 207.2, so lead is a lot heaver then zinc.
Nelson Moyer
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 8:01 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Lead shot in flat cars
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
These materials are used as non toxic materials for bullets
however both are expensive, [bismuth and tungsten]. Bismuth is
just a little heaver and tungsten is 1.7 to 1 of lead. Both are
hard to work.
-- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: Most needed car? (Seley hoopers)
Earl Tuson
Ray Breyer says,
The D&H and SAL cars seem to be unique to those roads,The 100 B&M cars (5900-5999, SSC 1905) appear to have been diverted from a D&H order to the New England road. The cars were identical, and the builder's photo shows a D&H car number that never appeared in the ORER. B&M class cards even identify them as "D&H hopper gondola cars." Earl Tuson
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 10/26/2013 6:01 PM, Tim O'Connor
wrote:
Anyone know how the weight lead=11340kg/cu m (207.2) zinc=7135kg/cu m (65.38) -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Re: AUTOMOBILE SHIPMENTS IN BOX CARS IN THE 1950S
Guy Wilber
Al wrote:
I believe the C&O had 50-ft staggered side with end-door auto-rack box cars thru 1956. Pontiac was using highway truck-trailers in 1950. C&O first loaded tri-levels at Wixom, MI, in Oct 1960. Al,
The C&O rostered approximately 200 50' auto
cars equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders thru 1960. None of the C&O, or
inherited PM cars, fitted with loaders had end doors at that
time.
Pontiac was shipping autos via trucks by the early
1920's as were most manufacturers, though they still
utilized rail service from Pontiac, Michigan, for long haul
deliveries (typically more than 400 miles).
Assembly plants located at; Linden, NJ., Doraville, Ga.,
Kansas City, Mo., Los Angeles, Ca., and Wilmington, Del., were shipping autos by both rail
and truck into the 1950's as well.
The deliveries from Pontiac's total
production (via rail) averaged around 25%
from Pontiac and less than 14% from the assembly plants by the early
1950's. Deliveries from the assembly plants by rail were
usually within a 300 to 400 mile range.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Re: AUTOMOBILE SHIPMENTS IN BOX CARS IN THE 1950S
Guy Wilber
In a message dated 10/18/2013 4:32:44 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tony@... writes:
"Autos were certainly shipped in box cars in the 50s, though in declining percentage thru that decade. Auto racks would reverse that decline after this list's time span. By the 50s it was almost all 50-foot cars. Older 40-foot cars often went into auto parts service." By the early 1950's it wasn't even close...40-footers
equipped with Auto~Loaders out numbered 50-footers (so equipped) by a three to
two ratio. 50-foot cars furnished for transporting finished
motor vehicles didn't take over the lead until mid way thru
1957.
Guy Wilber
Reno,
Nevada
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Re: Reporting marks
Guy Wilber
In a message dated 10/25/2013 9:55:51 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
tony@... writes:
The data I have indicates that in 1952, the AAR withdrew the recommendation (not requirement) of the lines, and numerous roads using them promptly stopped. But Guy Wilber, who has documentation, says he cannot find support for that date. SP stopped using lines in 1952. IF, the AAR had removed the 1" bars from within the
lettering "Standards" in 1952, there would have been no reason to visit the
issue in 1957 when the bars were officially removed
from the "Standards" within the AAR's Manual.
Quoting from the Car Construction
Committee report from 1957:
"Some of the member roads and others have registered complaints to the effect that certain car owners have not been following the stenciling requirements for freight cars as outlined on Manual pages L-37 to L-39D. Some of these complaints indicated that the full name of
the railroad has been shown in lieu of reporting marks (car initials) and other
complaints were to the effect that the bar to be stenciled below the
reporting marks was not used.
Your committee has investigated this matter
and developed information indicating that the bar shown below the reporting
marks serves no useful purpose at the present time. It is
recommended, therefore, as a letter ballot item, the Manual pages entitled
"Lettering and Marking of Cars" starting on Manual page L-37 be revised to
eliminate the use of bars in the stenciling of reporting
marks."
The letter ballot was passed with no negative votes and
became effective on March 1, 1957.
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada
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Re: AUTOMOBILE SHIPMENTS IN BOX CARS IN THE 1950S
Guy Wilber
Bill wrote:
"The recent issue of Trains Magazine has a number of articles on the
shipment of automobiles via rail but is a bit vague about the timeline for the
use of box cars."
The article is not only vague on that timeline, but also
fails to mention the use of Evans Auto~Loaders or the NYC Railroad's two designs
of auto loaders.
"It has been my understanding -- perhaps misguided -- that
automobile shipments after WWII moved from rail to highway over the road trailer
and very few cars were shipped in box cars at this time period."
Railroads lost the majority share of new,
fully assembled, auto and light truck shipments to
trucking in 1932, and never recaptured that advantage until
after 1960. Prior to the 1930's, shipments of automobiles and light
trucks were dominated by the railroads . In 1932 51.5% of
new autos and light trucks were delivered by truck or
so-called "drive-aways", the latter two methods of delivery were
grouped statistically (during that period), thus it is hard to derive the true
percentage hauled by truck. None-the-less, railroads were
"1) is my understanding of the shipment of automobiles via rail
correct?"
No, the railroads still handled a good portion of the
automobile and light truck traffic during the post war years from which
they received a higher profit per ton than virtually any other commodity.
"2) were automobiles being shipped in box cars into the
1950's?"
Yes, by the thousands.
"3) if YES, then what makes were shipped by rail?" Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac,
Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth, Checker, De Soto, Hudson, Kaiser, Nash, Packard,
Studebaker, Willys, and Crosley.
"4) after WWII was box car shipment of automobiles, if shipped in a box
car, done using 40-foot or 50-foot box cars?"
40-foot auto cars equipped with Evans Auto~Loaders outnumbered 50-foot auto
cars (so equipped) until mid-1957. 40-foot cars were nearly as well
suited as their 50-foot companions when small to mid-sized vehicles were
shipped. 50-foot cars were purchased in large part to serve the small
truck market as well as autos. A good percentage of
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Lead 707.96 lb/CF Zinc 445.30 lb/CF
Naturally more brittle than lead. If you’ve ever weighted car with US Pennies you are essentially using zinc.
Brian J. Carlson, P.E. Cheektowaga, NY
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 9:01 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Lead shot in flat cars
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Nice. They have other metals too -- like pure zinc sheet down to .020 thickness. Anyone know how the weight of zinc sheet compares to lead sheet? Tim O'Connor
While searching for sheet lead suppliers to weight flat cars, gondolas, and stock cars, I ran across Rotometals in the Bay Area. They stock sheet lead in several thicknesses that are useful for model railroaders, and they sell by the linear foot from 3 ft. wide rolls. I put together the following data:
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Re: Lead shot in flat cars
Nelson Moyer <ku0a@...>
While searching for sheet lead suppliers to weight flat cars, gondolas, and stock cars, I ran across Rotometals in the Bay Area. They stock sheet lead in several thicknesses that are useful for model railroaders, and they sell by the linear foot from 3 ft. wide rolls. I put together the following data:
Available Thicknesses and Weights Fractional Actual Weight per ft.2 Oz. per ft.2 Oz. per in. 2 1/32 in. 0.033 in. 2 lb. 32 0.22 1/24 in. 0.040 in. 2.5 lb. 40 0.28 1/16 in. 0.065 in. 4 lb. 64 0.44 5/64 in. 0.085 in. 5 lb. 80 0.56 3/32 in. 0.098 in. 6 lb. 94 0.65 7/64 in. 0.115 in. 7 lb. 112 0.78 1/8 in. 0.133 in. 8 lb. 128 0.89
I hope the table format holds up. By measuring the freight car surface area available for weights, it’s easy to calculate the optimal thickness needed to weight the car. I found that 1/16 in. and 3/32 in. thicknesses work best for my needs.
Nelson Moyer
-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Chad Boas Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:54 PM To: stmfc@... Subject: [STMFC] Lead shot in flat cars
I have been trying different ways to weight the resin flat cars that I cast. I bought some #5 shot and dropped some into in the center sill of the mold before the resin cures. I went from .4oz without lead to 1oz with lead. There are a few bumps that show up after the resin cured. If I use it only in the center sill of a fish belly side car, it would never be seen. I think for the straight sill cars, I could get some key stock and drop into the resin. I can post photos if anyone is interested. Also, working on some new kits. Stay tuned! Chad
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Lead shot in flat cars
Chad Boas
I have been trying different ways to weight the resin flat cars that I cast. I bought some #5 shot and dropped some into in the center sill of the mold before the resin cures. I went from .4oz without lead to 1oz with lead. There are a few bumps that show up after the resin cured. If I use it only in the center sill of a fish belly side car, it would never be seen. I think for the straight sill cars, I could get some key stock and drop into the resin. I can post photos if anyone is interested. Also, working on some new kits. Stay tuned! Chad
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Re: Athearn Blue Box boxcar -- prototype?
Don <riverman_vt@...>
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
For the most paart I agree with what you have stated, Tony, but lets view things from the other side as well. I have just returned home for the night from the first day of Howard Zane's scale show at the Maryland State Fairground in Timonium, MD (just north of the Baltimore Beltway). When compared to this same show last year there are far, far fewer vendors and it seems like a few less attendees as well. Some of those attending have sited a fear of buying owing to the economic situation and one fellow wasn't sure when he would see his next pay check due to the mess "our" government, if one can call it that, is in. So when one looks at the cost of an Athearn Blue Box car today perhaps it makes sense to invest a little more in effort for low cost parts with which to may Blue Box cars that are already owned a bit more acceptable than replacing them in total with cars costing $25 and up. It can be viewed as a few hours of pleasurable, I hope, modeling for a low investment of funds. Just another view of the situation, Don Valentine
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Hart Ballast Cars *** Kits for Sale***
Doug Junda
All,
I have 13 of the Hart Convertible Ballast Car kits left. The normally sell of $50.00 per kit, with Trucks, and Hart Ballast Data Decals (No road Names). I would like to clear out the inventory and sell them for $45.00 plus $7.00 SH. I can do paypal for direct payment. Please contact me off list @ djunda AT protowestmodels.com. Thanks, Doug Junda Protowest Models
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