Date   

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: RE: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

The photo of OTDX 1014 also appears to be a WE car, but is not the same as the 52'6" IL cars owned by ATSF, N&W, PRR, NYC and others, that have much fatter ribs embossed into the verticals and diagonals, and a much narrower base flange. I do not know what the "base" car was. I thought the CNJ cars were also "std" WE composite 52'6" IL cars, but this has me wondering if CNJ had two types? The OTDX car 1014 has 13 vertical ribs, but they are very slender, and shorter than those on other cars like it. Did Bethlehem produce different variants of that car?

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Eric Neubauer
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 12:37 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [STMFC] RE: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)



Thought I had this nailed, but the photo I have is of OTDX 1054. It is a war emergency gondola, so I thought perhaps it is related. These Duryea cushion cars came from CNJ 86000-86499 and 86500-8699 built by BSC in 1942-43 DF-42 and DF-43. However, the 1-59 ORER suggests that the CCBX cars are shorter than the OTDX cars.

Eric


----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden SAW <mailto:elden.j.gatwood@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:57 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

All;

Does anyone know much about the subject container cars? They appear to be rebuilt war emergency composite gons with slightly extended sides and semi-circular interior end bulkheads. They have big billboard placards reading "BAKELITE PLASTICS", and the Union Carbide hex logo.

I can't post the photo, but will send it as an attachment to those that ask.

I am always looking for more interesting container cars, so if you have any others, I would be interested in hearing about them.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Thought I had this nailed, but the photo I have is of OTDX 1054. It is a war emergency gondola, so I thought perhaps it is related. These Duryea cushion cars came from CNJ 86000-86499 and 86500-8699 built by BSC in 1942-43 DF-42 and DF-43. However, the 1-59 ORER suggests that the CCBX cars are shorter than the OTDX cars.
 
Eric
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:57 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)

 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

All;

Does anyone know much about the subject container cars? They appear to be rebuilt war emergency composite gons with slightly extended sides and semi-circular interior end bulkheads. They have big billboard placards reading "BAKELITE PLASTICS", and the Union Carbide hex logo.

I can't post the photo, but will send it as an attachment to those that ask.

I am always looking for more interesting container cars, so if you have any others, I would be interested in hearing about them.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: double sheathed & single sheathed - most common in the early 1950s???

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 13, 2013, at 6:51 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I have not seen any photos of the cars painted silver & black in the
1930's, but I'll take your word for it that they were. 

On the other hand, I have a scan of GA #19668 clearly stenciled with
a reweigh date of 4-38, and the car is painted box car red.

Maybe I'm just not lucky but the 5 images I have of the silver & black
cars are from 1951 to 1983, while the 3 images I have of the red cars
are all from 1949 or earlier.

Tim, the photographic evidence I have is inconclusive on this issue.  I have one photo of a weathered and dirty aluminum-painted car with a 1961 reweigh date.  On the other hand, I have one of an aluminum painted car with a 5-51 reweigh date applied over whatever the previous reweigh date was, so that gets us back to the late 1940s, and I have another with an 11-48 reweigh date, also painted over whatever preceded it, so that gets us back to the mid-1940s.  But then I have photos of cars repainted mineral red with fresh reweigh dates of 11-49, 7-51, and 7-54.  It seems evident that the two paint schemes overlapped during a period of many years, and for ‘50s modelers it’s a matter of choice which one to have on a model.  Thought the usual caveat applies, that the course of wisdom is to work from a prototype photo which you can later wave in front of anyone who says “that paint scheme is wrong for your modeling date.”  Of course, if you don’t have a specific modeling date, that’s another problem.  Those who vaguely claim to be molding “the 1950s” are in fact, as Tony Koester once said, modeling 1959 badly.

Richard Hendrickson



Re: double sheathed & single sheathed - most common in the early 1950s???

Tim O'Connor
 

I have not seen any photos of the cars painted silver & black in the
1930's, but I'll take your word for it that they were.

On the other hand, I have a scan of GA #19668 clearly stenciled with
a reweigh date of 4-38, and the car is painted box car red.

Maybe I'm just not lucky but the 5 images I have of the silver & black
cars are from 1951 to 1983, while the 3 images I have of the red cars
are all from 1949 or earlier.

Tim O'Connor

"The Georgia RR steel USRA boxcar rebuilds were originally painted silver and black when rebuilt in the 1930's. Luckily for those modelling 1954 and later, these cars were repainted freight car red. So they don't stick out like silver "sore thumbs" on a layout set in 1954 or later. Tichy has the decals. "

I do not think all the GaRR USRA rebuilds were repainted from silver. It's been pointed out to me that there is a picture of 19506 still wearing silver with black lettering dated 5/10/1969 and in assigned revenue service, in Bob Hanson's "History of the GA Railroad", pg. 184.

Further, there are pictures on the Fallen Flags site of another one in silver and black paint in 1983, though by that time it was in MW service. But I doubt the car would have been pulled from service prior to 1954. More like the late 60s or 1970.

Ben Scanlon


Re: More container cars Union Carbide 801-803 and 805-815 (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

All;

Does anyone know much about the subject container cars? They appear to be rebuilt war emergency composite gons with slightly extended sides and semi-circular interior end bulkheads. They have big billboard placards reading "BAKELITE PLASTICS", and the Union Carbide hex logo.

I can't post the photo, but will send it as an attachment to those that ask.

I am always looking for more interesting container cars, so if you have any others, I would be interested in hearing about them.

Thanks!

Elden Gatwood


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: double sheathed & single sheathed - most common in the early 1950s???

Bill Welch
 

I have several photos of these Georgia rebuilds in the fifties and later painted aluminum and black from the various commercial sources too numerous to detail. Further the Georgia's affiliated companies Atlanta & West Point and Western Railway of Alabama received new steel sheathed cars from the factory painted aluminum and black. In other words aluminum  and black was not an apparition but common practice for these three roads right along with the use of the freight car red/brown. 


Bill Welch


Re: double sheathed & single sheathed - most common in the early 1950s???

Benjamin Scanlon
 

"The Georgia RR steel USRA boxcar rebuilds were originally painted silver and black when rebuilt in the 1930's. Luckily for those modelling 1954 and later, these cars were repainted freight car red. So they don't stick out like silver "sore thumbs" on a layout set in 1954 or later. Tichy has the decals. "

 

 

I do not think all  the GaRR USRA rebuilds were repainted from silver.  It's been pointed out to me that there is a picture of 19506 still wearing silver with black lettering dated 5/10/1969 and in assigned revenue service, in Bob Hanson's "History of the GA Railroad", pg. 184.

 

Further, there are pictures on the Fallen Flags site of another one in silver and black paint in 1983, though by that time it was in MW service.  But I doubt the car would have been pulled from service prior to 1954.  More like the late 60s or 1970.

 

Ben Scanlon


Re: Book for sale

Jared Harper
 

Looks like it is sold.

Jared Harper




---In STMFC@..., <jaredvharper@...> wrote:

I have a copy of The Wood Sheathed Cars of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet 1940-1953 by Bill Welch for sale:  $5.00 plus shipping.  It is in excellent condition except for being slightly smoked on the top from our house fire.  Contact me off list if interested.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Book for sale

Richard
 

I'll take it. dickkuelbs@...

--- In STMFC@..., <jaredvharper@...> wrote:

I have a copy of The Wood Sheathed Cars of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet 1940-1953 by Bill Welch for sale: $5.00 plus shipping. It is in excellent condition except for being slightly smoked on the top from our house fire. Contact me off list if interested.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Book for sale

Jared Harper
 

I have a copy of The Wood Sheathed Cars of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet 1940-1953 by Bill Welch for sale:  $5.00 plus shipping.  It is in excellent condition except for being slightly smoked on the top from our house fire.  Contact me off list if interested.

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: branchline blueprint reefers

Bill Welch
 

Careful, the Hutchins roofs used on boxcars was different than those of the FGE/WFE/BRE System in that the roof panels between the ribs did not have the corrugation pressed in as on the boxcar version. My theory is that the System purchased only the roof ribs but fabricated their own roof panels.


Also the Hutchins roof on the Westerfield ex-PRR R7 FGE reefers needs to have this rib removed. I alerted Al W. to this after I received my kits but I am not sure he changed his patterns. Also the roof was only rebuilt between the hatches with the original Pennsy hatches remaining in place. Dimensionally they are different than those found on other FGE/WFE/BRE cars.


Bill Welch


Re: branchline blueprint reefers

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

It is message 119500.

 

Jack Burgess

 

Randy,

Andrew Dahm of Westerfield Models posted a few weeks ago that he offers Hutchins roofs as a separate part. I would give you a STMFC message number to refer to, but I cannot figure out how to search the messages with this new Yee-haw system.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide


Wheelset demo train performance

JP Barger
 

This is a news item from Hudson, MA which perhaps will amuse a few STMFC members, maybe more. Hope you enjoy the story while seeing in your mind's eye a perfectly running 100 car train in HO scale.

 

A recent deployment of a massive version of Reboxx' WHEELSET DEMO TRAIN at the Medina Railroad Museum in Medina, NY occurred on 5 November 13. Featuring 100 HO covered ACF 70 ton hoppers, the prototypes of which were all built by ACF and its carbuilder competitors (licensees) between the 1930's and the 1970's and operated by dozens of prototype railroads, the train couldn't be more coincident with the STMFC time period and subject interest. The train occupied about 35 feet of track. For Reboxx and its friends, it's just a convenient and economical way to showcase the effective use of metal car wheels with fitted axle lengths for surer and cleaner operations , narrower wheel width for near prototype appearance and precision needle bearings- like your analog watch has-for minimum friction and long operating life. Nothing like a good road test to develop potential modeler/operator interest, especially when the subject is model trains.

 

Demonstration runs of the LO train began about half a dozen years ago with its first tests at the North Shore Model RR Club, a large layout near our base here in the Boston area. The NSMRC layout features unrelenting curvature and a 3% gradient on its mainline. Next came a run in upstate New York at a very large personal layout with 2% long grades. After a suitable interval, the train was shipped to Southern California to demo on four major club layouts in LA and San Diego. These clubs feature some of the longest mainlines and greatest gradients and curvature in the nation. Pasadena and La Mesa include full circles on steep grades.

 

When there is DC power available, our 100 car train can be pulled by three RS-11's of our own supply.  A proto train of the same makeup wouldn't operate at suitable track speed with the RS-11 power set on mainlines with substantial grades, if at all. But in HO, with the very powerful Tiger Valley mechanisms and high locomotive body weights, operation is excitingly prototypical. This train, for example, maintained realistic track speed on the La Mesa Club layout, representing the west side of the Tehachapi crossing, pulling uphill on as much as 2.75% grade. Consider that this train weighs more than 350 ounces, or around 25 pounds, because all of the cars have individual car total weights of 3.5 ounces or more. Moreover, since the exercise is to demonstrate wheelsets, the added car weights are at the lowest position in each car-in the hoppers- to keep the trains from tending to tip on sharp curves. Thus, wheelset operation remains the focus of the exercise. By the way, 350 ounces times 2.75% gives a required tractive force of nine and five-eighths of an ounce!! That's not counting the inevitable curve friction on greatly curved layouts. So TF goes over 10 oz. And 400 wheelsets are  rolling simultaneously. No tipping, no out of alignment cars, and especially, no derailments.

 

At Medina recently, DCC was the power source, and for this we used a power set owned by the museum, a four unit PRR F7 lashup, which exhibited no limit in speed with the full train of 100 cars. On the highest grade, it would climb at around 100 mph pulling the entire train uphill on grade. Running the demo train at Medina was great fun; a rewarding event we hope to repeat sometime in the future, perhaps with a different train consist.

 

The Museum, if you haven't yet visited,  is a worthwhile place to drop in, an ex-NYC freight depot on an obsolete NYC line paralleling the old Erie Canal bed. It not only has an HO layout over 200 feet long with an almost 500 foot double track mainline, but it is finished with marvelously competent scenery. The layout operates whenever the Museum is open, so count on seeing multiple HO trains running. The Museum is host to an extensive collection of railroadiana, which alone could entertain a visitor for hours. Marty Phelps, the Executive Director, will be glad to welcome you and perhaps give you the special tour for serious HO aficionados  The Museum is in Medina, NY, about twenty miles north of the NY State Thruway exit in Batavia, easy to get to.

 

The Reboxx demo train can be made available to groups of modelers/operators/collectors who have major trackage available. Email address is above. Thanks for listening, and have a rewarding set of yearend activities. Hope this little news squib made you smile broadly.

Best for Happy Model Railroading      JP Barger/Reboxx


Re: CN 8-Hatch Reefers

Douglas Harding
 

Charles interesting reading. As always excellent research. I do wonder about the intended use of the blueberries in the loads. I question your idea the blueberries were destined for Griffin-Touhey. I don’t recall seeing fruit cocktail containing blueberries, but I have seen a lot of blueberry pie filling. If, as you indicate in your blog, the Fruit Growers Coop had a cherry pie filling canning operation, I suspect the blueberries were actually destined for Fruit Growers to become pie filling. Another possibility is the berries were canned by Giffin-Touhey as blue berries, not cocktail.

 

Either way a good excuse to run a CN 8-hatch reefer.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: CN 8-Hatch Reefers

Scott
 

That's a lot of Blueberries!


Neat bit of history,


Scott McDonald


CN 8-Hatch Reefers

Charles Hostetler
 

Good afternoon all,


Fans of the CN 8-hatch overhead brine tank reefers may enjoy the waybills for a shipment two of them made to the U.S. as recorded in the Ahnapee & Western waybill collection.  There's also some interesting details about the icing process recorded on the forms.  The post can be found at:

http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/12/a-prototype-waybill-34.html

Regards,

Charles Hostetler
Goshen, Ind.


Re: C&BT reefer roof

hayden_tom@...
 

Tony,   Thanks for the clarification on nomenclature. I spent hours searching on this forum to understand Dreadnaught, Improved Dreadnaught, Inverse Dreadnaught , and Reverse Dreadnaught and had concluded that Inverse and Reverse were the same. 


And yes, Richard does refer to the ends of the SFRD rr19 etc cars as Inverse Dreadnaught. The most distinguishing feature being that the horizontal row of rivets connecting the upper and lower panels is on one of the "bulges", rather than in the valley. 


So this photo I linked is indeed an Inverse Dreadnaught, identical to that used on the SFRD rr19 etc. 


My main point is that neither the C&BT nor the IM ends really replicate the prototype perfectly. It seems Richard's body putty mod on a C&BT end comes closest. The C&BT end is next best, and the IM end is farthest from the prototype because the flattening of the ribs and darts 6-8 inches before  the actual vertical edge is quite prominent on the model and non existent on the prototype. 


Tom



---In STMFC@..., <tony@...> wrote:

Tom Hayden wrote:

 
Although this is not an SFRD car this IS an inverse dreadnaught end.  

     Small nit on nomenclature: the end is not, in my view, "reversed." It is simply inset. The ribs and edge darts stick up from the background on the end. A reverse end, and such did exist even on house cars, have this relationship reversed. It was common on gondolas with dreadnaught ends, to face the outward ribs INTO the car (it's the stiffer side), and then what you seen on the OUTSIDE of the end is indeed a reverse end. That is not what is shown in the photo on Tom's link.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





GATC stock cars

Clark Propst
 

I’ve got photos of an Armour and M&StL stock cars I will assume were leased from General American. The cars appear to be of the same design. I’m curious to know if other roads or companies lease cars of this same design.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: branchline blueprint reefers

Michael Aufderheide
 

Randy,


Andrew Dahm of Westerfield Models posted a few weeks ago that he offers Hutchins roofs as a separate part. I would give you a STMFC message number to refer to, but I cannot figure out how to search the messages with this new Yee-haw system.


Regards,


Mike Aufderheide


Re: Tru-color paint

Norm Buckhart
 

Protocraft's paint packages are available only from Protocraft.   while not yet on the web catalog you can order directly.  Just email me at norm@... with the specific model you are doing and we will assemble the correct paint package for you.  Norm

On Dec 12, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Timothy Cannon wrote:

 

Thanks for the info Norm! I am still unsure as to where I can get this paint. Where can I get TCP-923 or its equal? I am modeling early Frisco cars.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Tim

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Protocraft
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:14 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Tru-color paint

 

 

TIm - Protocraft's TCP numbers are a propitiatory number assigned by True Color Paints for the Protocraft Paint Package line - where you can order them .  The 8 freight car red/brown colors are matched to actual paint chips given to Ed Hawkins, Pat Wider and Ray Long (publishers of the comprehensive RP CYC series) when they were given access to AC&F's factory archives long before the factory closed and the materials were sent to the St Louis Mercantile Library at the University of Missouri (where they can be seen today.)  Ed's research separating all the many chips taken from drift cards at the back of each Bill of Materials for each Lot number of cars ordered and built at ACF, proved that while there were many paint manufacturers specified by the car purchaser, and each had a name or different number for their product, or both, that dozens of different chips would reveal themselves to be identical.  For Pullman, the Bill of Materials was the reference, but the same paint manufacturers were used.

 

The net of Ed's research - and I have gone through his collection of grouped colors - is that there really was only 8 different shades of freight car red/brown.  For example, the early shades fell into what we called Group I.  This was a dark brown used in the early years:1930-1940's.  Different paint chips had different paint manufacturers such as Glidden, Pittsburg Paint, Dupont and others, with each having a part number and usually a named color.   The roads that specified the Group I colors were ATSF, B&O, CGW, C&O, ERIE, NK,  PM, KCS, L&A, MP and subsidiarys, NdeM, RI and W&LE.  BUT when the chips were laid out on the table in sunlight - they were all identical in color and shade.

 

Therefor if painting a model for any of these roads for the period 1930-1940's, TCP-921 would be correct.  However there is a caveat to this - while prototypically correct, this shade is a very dark brown.  Next it is important to understand that this paint faded and oxidized rather quickly, resulting in a much lighter shade.  The shade gets lighter as the paint oxidized over a period of 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, etc.  So you don't want to use the TCP paint straight out of the bottle, unless you want to model the day the car came out of the paint shop.  The answer is to mix in a small amount of TCP179 Grey (included in the paint package) to achieve the years the car was being exposed to the elements.  This is achieved by first priming a piece of scrap styrene and then experimenting to find the shade you want.  And finally, examine your dried sample under the layout's lights, which will be different than sunlight.

 

Then too, after 8-10 years the cars were repainted, using a later shade of paint, and probably a new synthetic one, plus new lettering schemes.  The actual paint chips show the same thing in these groups, but now with a more reddish hues and oxidized colors; hence the higher TCP Group numbers, ending in Group VIII.   These were slower to fade, but they did and still need to be blended with TCP-179 to replicate normal aging.

 

The result is a very accurate color for your period model, from the 1930's right up to the 1960's.

 

Norm Buckhart

Protocraft

 

On Dec 9, 2013, at 7:16 PM, Timothy Cannon wrote:



 

 

On the subject of True Color Paint- The Protocraft Decal web site calls for TCP-923 color for a certain decal set. For the life of me I cannot find this number listed anywhere on the TCP color chart. Am I missing something here or what???

Thanks!

Tim

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Don
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 1:34 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Tru-color paint

 

 



--- In STMFC@..., Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
>
> Don,
> Accupaint bottled up their product from ONE gallon pails, not five. And they stepped on it a bit, supposedly to enhance the covering abilities, but I suspect it was to increase the profit margin. Tim O'Connor could tell us much more, as he knew the principals.
>
> Tru-paint, like Accupaint, is sourced from Southern California.
> -Andy Carlson
> Ojai CA

You are correct on the source but that is all, Andy.
As far as Tim O'Connor is concerned I knew George Bishop, the sole "pricipal" and quite well at that as we used to meet at
noon at least once per week, before anyone over heard of Tim.

Cordially, Don Valentine

 

 



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