Date   

Re: My CCB experience

Andy Harman
 

I don't attend a lot of clinics, an in fact at any given RPM meet the number of clinics I will attend besides my own (if I'm giving one) is between zero and one. I prefer to just hang out in the model room, unless a particular clinic is something I'm really interested in. This year at CCB I went to Tom Madden's 3D printing clinic, a subject I am very much interested in and Tom is an excellent presenter, and in fact I even requested my own clinic be moved so I could attend Tom's.

I generally don't mind questions in the middle of the clinic, as long as it is something relevant to that point in the clinic. In other words, if I'm talking about trucks, that's a good time to ask about trucks, not about decals. I've had the occasional correction issued from the gallery, which I really don't mind because - as I always explain in my clinics - I do the clinics to increase my OWN knowledge of the subject. If anybody else benefits, great.

Doing a clinic causes me to focus on one particular subject, gather my source materials together, put down concrete answers to questions I may have been only guessing at or going by consensus, as well as document my process if it's a model build. By simply explaining the process and photographing it, I become aware of what I'm doing and can discover better ways or short cuts.

I've occasionally had a method challenged - and based on the topic of my most recent clinic you can probably guess what parts of it were challenged, but they're off topic for this list. A factual correction is always welcome. In terms of modeling methods and techniques, if I'm advocating a particular technique it's because I've either been doing it for 40 years, or else I've tried everything else and settled on this one. I have my preferences when it comes to materials and chemicals... I prefer to work with styrene, resin, metal, or wood in that order.

I'd consider it rude if I'm doing a clinic on kitbashing or scratch building a particular model if somebody pops up and says "Why didn't you just buy the brass one?" or "such-and-such is close enough for me". In that case, the person has no business in my clinic anyway. This is all pretty rare. I'm not a regular public speaker by any means, but I've never been shy about it. I don't care about my images as "the expert" and in fact almost every clinic I've given, I can spot one or more people in the room who know more about the subject than I do. Or at least some aspect of it.

The very first clinic I ever attempted to give, I started with an audience of four. The minute I opened my mouth, three of them walked away. After talking for about 90 seconds, the remaining guy said "I just wanna know how to put Kadee couplers on 'em". Which is why I never did another clinic until I was invited to do one at a real RPM meet. A very different experience.

To sum it up, the whole clinic experience for me, as a presenter, is to expand and solidify my knowledge, hone my skills at model building, try new techniques - and share both the failures and the successes, and walk away with renewed motivation. It has always worked for me.

Andy


AC&F Type 27

ottokroutil
 

For you tank car experts, does "Type 27" refer to the design of the car, or just the underframe?

Thanks, Otto K.


Cocoa Beach Photos Posted

dh30973
 

I have uploaded my Cocoa Beach 2014 Photos at:

http://www.pbase.com/dh30973/cocoa2014&page=all

Dave Hussey


Re: New York Central USRA 50-ton gondola paint color

Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks Chuck, I have noted that info, which has spurred my question on this model. If black is proper for NYC gondolas before 1941, then why has Intermountain done a few runs of these models with as-built lettering and brown/red paint? Is there something specific to the paint for this car design? Or has Intermountain chosen to paint these in the wrong color (a few times) for the as-built versions? 


Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX


My recent RPM experiences

Clark Propst
 

I thought I’d throw out my opinions of the last three RPMs I was privileged enough to attend. I was a mouse in the corner for the planning of the StL meet, so I will never complain but any of them.
 
Last summer was the Collinsville Il (St Louis) meet. This one is in a convention center rimmed by hotels and restaurants, with more very nearby. The focus is on tables. Lots of models on display, hands on clinics going all day, HS societies, manufacturers and vendors. Only one clinic room. Clinics are only shown once. A great place to grab some chairs and hold a good BS session.
 
This past fall was Naperville. This show seems to be on wobbly legs with the lost of Martin Lofton, trying to find a new direction. Using three different venues over the last three years hasn’t helped. You lose that ‘comfort’ feeling. Focus on clinics. Not near as many tables as St Louis, but many clinics going at once. The reason I go, a great show.  
 
Winter time means Cocoa Beach. A chance to thaw out a bit. Venue is therefore second to none. Again the focus is on clinics, not as many tables as Naperville, but with the ocean outside the door and good clinics who cares ;  )
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


NYC 40 ft. double door boxcars

O Fenton Wells
 

I am kitbashing the 40 foot, 10'-0" IH double door boxcars with the 12 ft door openings.  I have the ends and roof to do both the end door and straight end versions.  Looking at the photos in volume 21 of RPC I can see an interesting rivet panel arrangement with the sides.  
Does anyone have any info on the panel widths and the rivet patterns?
 I will probably do an 88xxx series car and a 203xxx series as I model 1952 and the 211xxx series didn't take place until then.  I want one with the black background in the oval and one without but I may need to go with an earlier number to have the black. say the 91xxx series.
Thanks in advance
Fenton Wells


Re: MStL 63001s, 65001s

Clark Propst
 

Mask Island now offers decals for these cars.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: CP & CN Fowler brake cylinders

Daniel McConnachie
 

Earl,

Yes I'd be very interested in seeing the pics. Thank for sharing.

Cheers, Daniel.


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Earl Tuson <etuson@...> wrote:
 

> Earl, what are the PBL part numbers for these cylinders?

Funny you should ask! I don't know for sure, but I think their KD812 is PBL-531 and PBL-532 the KC812. I don't know
what cylinder is included in PBL-501. My examples came from my PBL UTLX tank car kits (the Type V has a KD, while the
"narrow frame" Type X has a KC.)

Another KC812 available in S is included in GL-4064. Those are also quite an improvement over, for example, the lumps
included in the Kaslo/Ridgehill Scale Models Fowler car kits, but the PBL parts are just exquisite.

If only we had comparable 10x12 K components...

Daniel, I can send images of some these off list if it is of assistance.

Earl Tuson




--
Daniel McConnachie


MStL

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Here are some more information requests:
 
MStL 1000e1018 any months-years built information?
MStL 1183-1193 any months-years built information?
MStL 04000e04598 any months-years built information?
MStL 5402e5800 any months-years built information?
MStL 13101o13599 any months-years built information?
MStL 13601o14099 any months-years built information?
MStL 18000e18998 any months-years built information?
MStL 31000-31018 any months-years built information?
MStL 65001o65355 any months-years built information or former WMX numbers?
 
Thanks,
Eric N.


Re: MStL 63001s, 65001s

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Thanks to Gene via Doug for the info. I can add the following:
 
The ultimate origin of the MStl 63001s was apparently KOPX 15101-16000. These had mostly become SBPX 100-778+ by the late 1920s. Some apparently spent time as something else between KOPX and SBPX. PGBX 100-789 (646) appear by 7-30. The remaining history to MStL is below. Cars from the same original series went to the VGN 3200s, 5300s, and ultimately 5000-5230 (231) in the 1930s. I can confirm KOPX 15101-16000 as built by SSC at Baltimore. A builder's photo shows a 11-20 date which is consistent which dates on the MStL series.
 
The MStL 65001s were built as Westmoreland Coal. I suspect the original series was WMX 751-900, but not sure.
 
So now you have more information that anyone should want to know.
 
Eric N.

Eric, re the M&StL 63001s and 65001s hoppers, the information below is from Gene Green originally:

First the 63000s

Here's more than you ever wanted to know about the M&StL's used, open-top, two-bay hoppers acquired in 1941 and numbered 63001 through 63579.

There were originally 290 cars total and their original numbers ranged from CBPX 100 through 837 with lots of missing numbers. CBPX stands for Chicago By-Products which was formerly Peoples Gas By-Products of Chicago (PGBX).

All the cars were delivered to the M&StL at Peoria. The Alton delivered 102 cars, Rock Island delivered 39, and Illinois Central 99. The first car was delivered June 11, 1941, the last July 6, 1941.

The AFE offered no clue as to the builder although dates built ranged from January 1920 through May 1921. All except four cars were built in November and December 1920 and January and February 1921. (another note from Gene indicates the cars were built by Standard Steel Car Co.)

These cars were retired by the M&StL mostly in 1948 through 1952. M&StL hopper 63375 lasted until January 1961 when it was retired and subsequently sold to M.S. Kaplan Co. August 10, 1961.

Four were lost to wrecks as follows:

63011 on the M&StL at Searsboro September 21, 1945

63201 on the Illinois Terminal November 20, 1948

63319 on the Illinois Central in February 1947

63463 on the ERIE April 27, 1948

Aside for the 4 wrecked cars and the one sold to Kaplan, all the rest were sold to the Purdy Co.

One train of 103 of these cars were in a single train from Marshalltown on January 30, 1953 to Peoria from where the GM&O took them to Burnham, Illinois and handed them over to the Indiana Harbor Belt for delivery to Purdy. Of these 103 cars only 8 numbers are known; 63017, 63073, 63127, 63343, 63363, 63373, 63425 and 63453.

The AFEs do not tell us what happened to most of these cars after delivery to Purdy but some dispositions are known.

Eighteen cars were renumbered PCX (Purdy's reporting marks) 6301 through 6318 inclusive. Of these, 6301 through 6309 were subsequently renumbered WICO 2125 through 2133 (6309 became 2125, 6308 2126, etc.) for Woodward Iron Co., Woodward, Alabama.

The remaining cars known to be renumbered PCX were also in the 6300 series.

None of the applicable AFEs had any clue as to builder, type of trucks, brake system, hand brake or any of that neat stuff a modeler would like to know.

Three of the cars were reweighed at Minneapolis (MPLS) 7-41 as follows:

63547's new weight was 37900 lbs.

63531 was 38600 lbs.

63539 was 39000 lbs.

M&StL 63375 was reweighed at some unknown location in February 1958 and found to weigh 37700 lbs.

The 65001s came from Westmorland Coal Co., Philadelphia PA. Total of 178, bought used in 1943, numbered 65001—65355, built by Pressed Steel Car Co. Last car disposed of in 1965.

Hope this helps.

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: CP & CN Fowler brake cylinders

Dennis Storzek
 

Sounds like a repeat of the situation in HO scale thirty years ago... The CalScale KC set was OK, but the absolute best brake set of the time was the Grandt Line set, and being designed for narrow gauge, had an 8" cylinder. Luckily, the Soo cabooses that were my first resin kit actually had 8" cylinders, so I was able to include the Grandt set, but not with the freight cars I did.

The narrow gaugers penchant for detail and ability to scratchbuild has always supported more and better detail parts than are available for standard gauge modeling; luckily, some parts are adaptable.

Dennis Storzek


Re: CP & CN Fowler brake cylinders

Earl Tuson
 

Earl, what are the PBL part numbers for these cylinders?
Funny you should ask! I don't know for sure, but I think their KD812 is PBL-531 and PBL-532 the KC812. I don't know
what cylinder is included in PBL-501. My examples came from my PBL UTLX tank car kits (the Type V has a KD, while the
"narrow frame" Type X has a KC.)

Another KC812 available in S is included in GL-4064. Those are also quite an improvement over, for example, the lumps
included in the Kaslo/Ridgehill Scale Models Fowler car kits, but the PBL parts are just exquisite.

If only we had comparable 10x12 K components...

Daniel, I can send images of some these off list if it is of assistance.

Earl Tuson


Re: My CCB experience

Jack Burgess
 

In my clinics, I encourage questions during my clinics since I tend to talk fairly fast and may not adequately cover a particular PowerPoint slide...I don't want to lose the audience on a slide and then they don't understand things further on in the talk. I thus start a talk by telling the audience that, if you have a QUESTION, call it out during the talk. But, although I have rarely had listeners suggest options, I would quickly "limit" such suggestions in order to stay on track. One can do that by acknowledging the comment but saying something like "Thanks but we need to keep going in order to finish on time". I never rehearse my talks but just keep track of the time and speed up when it looks like I am running out of time.

Jack Burgess

www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Frigifrater

Bill Welch
 

I cannot say for sure but I suspect it was initiated by Frigidaire/GM/EMD group.


Bill Welch


Re: My CCB experience

Gerry Fitzgerald
 

Hello All,

 

Let me give you my thoughts on the “hijacking” of clinics and the larger question of etiquette and common courtesy at clinics. I am not an Emily Post aficionado but will give my perspective on things from the front of the clinic room up near the screen and the projector (and hopefully a microphone). 

 

First, as a referent from someone trained in academe –and regardless of what Wikipedia might be saying at the moment- at an academic conference in say history, panelists and speakers have the floor from 20-40 minutes and do not expect and usually do not take questions. Questions and audience “discussion” are left until either the individual speaker is done or until all of the panelists are finished. This format can vary in other disciplines among the social and hard sciences, not to mention engineering and medicine, but generally the speaker determines the structure of their own presentation. While a model railroad clinic may be very different content wise from say an MLA presentation on gender roles in cinema, it is normally understood the audience will respond to the speaker when the speaker has finished her presentation. At the same time it is understood that the audience expects a presenter to be fully prepared to give whatever talk they have promised and to do so in a way in which the audience will both enjoy themselves and also hopefully learn something. As such, the person speaking should have practiced their talk to meet the given time limit with room for Q&A, have all their PP slides in the correct order, and be ready to go as soon as they take the floor. Although to be fair, it takes most people time to learn to speak in public, which can be daunting for many, so it is always best to also give a speaker some slack if they seem like a newbie.

 

People trying to take over a discussion can be problematic no matter what the venue. As Pierre Oliver, of Elgin Car Shops notes on his blog this week, the description of the car he manufactured has been hijacked in a fashion in a current product review (but that is a story for another day).

Over the years I have given talks at various RPM meets including Napierville and also some of the smaller regional RPM conventions, at a few of the annual railroad historical society meetings, and at various NMRA meets at the divisional, regional and national level. The great majority of the time I have very much enjoyed giving talks and have felt gratified that I was given the opportunity to share my work with others.

 

While I wasn’t in Cocoa Beach this past weekend (although I heard it was great like it is every year) I have run into a few people once or twice who have tired to ‘assist” me in my presentations from time to time and hijacker seems a fair enough term. These “gentlemen” can often be spotted before a clinic begins either because of the loud and boisterous nature of their conversation with others, even if they are far across the room from each other, or because in my experience, they often enter right before a clinic commences and usually are speaking very loudly to others as they walk down the center aisle as they take their customary front row seat. My approach to these people, if I sense their presence in the audience, is to explain politely that I will not be taking questions during my talk as I have say 100 slides to get through and we are already behind schedule, which is often true enough. If that does not work, and I am interrupted frequently, I simply ramp up my presentation both speed and density wise. In short I begin to accelerate… and to move quickly enough, with so much information, no one can possibly interrupt. This is similar to someone in a cross country or long distance track race surging for a bit to leave others behind. It only takes a minute or so and interestingly enough, the really annoying people almost always get up and leave at that point when they figure out are going to have a hard time co-opting my presentation. Either that or they just sit there silently until the house lights come on later. Inevitably they don’t aks a question during the Q&A. This approach worked perfectly at a very large talk I gave at the NMRA National this past year on slavery and railroads.

 

It is just a theory but it seems to me that many of those who attempt to hijack talks never give clinics themselves (and yes I can think of some exceptions), which may be part of the problem…

 

For the most part I draw smaller audiences as I talk about rather esoteric railroad history topics but overall I like to “lecture” as my talk is of a piece and leave time for questions at the end. Some speakers encourage limited audience participation which can itself drive along a clinic although if a hijacker is present a speaker can lose momentum, or if nothing else, lose valuable time from their precious few allotted minutes. It all depends upon what the speaker is trying to accomplish and also what the audience wants. Getting off track (no pun intended) for a few minutes is OK but if a speaker answers too many questions early on the talk can sometimes sadly degenerate quickly into a “discussion” even if that was not the intention of the speaker. I assume if you flew across the country to hear my friend Bill Welch talk about southern agriculture and ACL watermelon cars, you don’t really want running commentary on his talk in real time by a person in the second row (especially since he knows les than Bill does). I have seen on at least one occasion an audience member silenced by the audience itself which as a collective tired of his endless interruptions. Overall I think RPM audiences are overall unfailingly polite and courteous. As a general rule if you are an audience member it is always best to just let the clinician speak. If the person at the podium wants the audience drawn into the presentation to make it a discussion, he or she will do so. If not, wait until the Q&A.  

 

Oddly enough at NMRA meetings I find there is another problem. This is the phenomenon of an older men who falls asleep almost as soon as the clinician begins (and that has included my own presentations) and snores, sometimes very loudly. I have never quite known what to do but usually just continue speaking, hopefully louder than the snoring. Often, but not always sleeping beauty often wakes up after a fashion or is elbowed awake “accidently” by a neighbor. It goes without saying cell phones should be silenced by everyone who attends a clinic or formal presentation (with the exception of physicians and emergency personnel) but that remains a problem and not just among the young. As some others have already suggested, if the audience polices itself and defers to common courtesy everyone will have a great time.

 

Best,

 

Gerard

 

Gerard J. Fitzgerald

Charlottesville, Virginia


Re: MStL 63001s, 65001s

Douglas Harding
 

Eric, Gene is a member of the STMFC list, he just posted something about an hour before your request. He has the AFE’s for the M&StL and is quite generous is sharing information when he has it. I have copies of just about everything he has prepared on M&StL cars. Clark Probst, also a member of the STMFC list, and has published a number of articles on modeling M&StL rolling stock. If you have further questions about M&StL freight cars, one of us should be able to answer.

 

Here is some additional information on the 65001s, which I found in some notes from Gene.

 

USRA hopper cars were used by the M&StL.  This group of 178 hoppers, 65001 to 65355, purchased through Hyman-Michaels, first appears in The Official Railway Equipment Register in April 1944.  The cars were purchased F.O.B. the Pennsylvania Railroad and Shaffton, Pennsylvania and most of them were put in service at that point.  They arrived on the M&StL piecemeal and were put to work immediately.   

 

According to M&StL Records they were built in 1920 and 1921 by the Pressed Steel Car Co.  Some cars rode on Andrews trucks, other on National Type B, and still others on Bettendorf trucks.  There were still 99 in service 10 years later and one served until 1965.  A letter dated January 25, 1954 from J. W. Devins directed that thereafter when cars of this series "become candidates for heavy repairs, they are to be set aside for retirement."  M&StL hopper car 65297 can be seen at a coal mine near Rapatee, Illinois in an M&StL promotional film made in 1948.  Jay Williams offers a photograph of M&StL 65327.

 

Hopper 65243 was originally built 6-22, capy 100,000, ld lmt 129,000, lt wt 39500 WMX 11-41, repacked 11-29-41 WMX, length over end sills = 30'-6 3/8".  (sketched at C.L. yards M.C.W. 3/9/43)

 

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: MStL 63001s, 65001s

Douglas Harding
 

Eric, re the M&StL 63001s and 65001s hoppers, the information below is from Gene Green originally:

 

First the 63000s

Here's more than you ever wanted to know about the M&StL's used, open-top, two-bay hoppers acquired in 1941 and numbered 63001 through 63579.

 

There were originally 290 cars total and their original numbers ranged from CBPX 100 through 837 with lots of missing numbers. CBPX stands for Chicago By-Products which was formerly Peoples Gas By-Products of Chicago (PGBX).

 

All the cars were delivered to the M&StL at Peoria. The Alton delivered 102 cars, Rock Island delivered 39, and Illinois Central 99. The first car was delivered June 11, 1941, the last July 6, 1941.

 

The AFE offered no clue as to the builder although dates built ranged from January 1920 through May 1921. All except four cars were built in November and December 1920 and January and February 1921. (another note from Gene indicates the cars were built by Standard Steel Car Co.)

 

These cars were retired by the M&StL mostly in 1948 through 1952. M&StL hopper 63375 lasted until January 1961 when it was retired and subsequently sold to M.S. Kaplan Co. August 10, 1961.

 

Four were lost to wrecks as follows:

63011 on the M&StL at Searsboro September 21, 1945

63201 on the Illinois Terminal November 20, 1948

63319 on the Illinois Central in February 1947

63463 on the ERIE April 27, 1948

 

Aside for the 4 wrecked cars and the one sold to Kaplan, all the rest were sold to the Purdy Co.

 

One train of 103 of these cars were in a single train from Marshalltown on January 30, 1953 to Peoria from where the GM&O took them to Burnham, Illinois and handed them over to the Indiana Harbor Belt for delivery to Purdy. Of these 103 cars only 8 numbers are known; 63017, 63073, 63127, 63343, 63363, 63373, 63425 and 63453.

 

The AFEs do not tell us what happened to most of these cars after delivery to Purdy but some dispositions are known.

 

Eighteen cars were renumbered PCX (Purdy's reporting marks) 6301 through 6318 inclusive. Of these, 6301 through 6309 were subsequently renumbered WICO 2125 through 2133 (6309 became 2125, 6308 2126, etc.) for Woodward Iron Co., Woodward, Alabama.

 

The remaining cars known to be renumbered PCX were also in the 6300 series.

 

None of the applicable AFEs had any clue as to builder, type of trucks, brake system, hand brake or any of that neat stuff a modeler would like to know.

 

Three of the cars were reweighed at Minneapolis (MPLS) 7-41 as follows:

63547's new weight was 37900 lbs.

63531 was 38600 lbs.

63539 was 39000 lbs.

 

M&StL 63375 was reweighed at some unknown location in February 1958 and found to weigh 37700 lbs.

 

The 65001s came from Westmorland Coal Co., Philadelphia PA. Total of 178, bought used in 1943, numbered 65001—65355, built by Pressed Steel Car Co. Last car disposed of in 1965.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Frigifrater

Gary Roe
 

Bill,
 
Thanks for the info.
 
Did FGE commission the design and building of the car?
 
gary roe
quincy, illinois



From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of fgexbill@...
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 4:37 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Frigifrater

 

I don't why this design did not impress FGE but Bob's Photo has a print of this car in revenue service IIRC.


Bill Welch


Re: My CCB experience

Bill Welch
 

I don't think the presenter bears sole responsibility for dealing with disruptive behavior. We participants need to speak up if our experience is being spoiled, whether it is someone injecting the incorrect shape of "bolt heads" ad nauseam for example, side conversations, or anything else that prevents us from hearing or causes the presenter to lose their focus. As was noted in one clinic, and is at the heart of this group, "it takes a village...."


Bill Welch


MStL 63001s, 65001s

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

MStL 63001o63579 and 65001o65355 are apparently USRA twin hopper clones from 1920-21. They were acquired through Hyman Michaels in the early 1940s from two different sources. Does anyone know the previous reporting marks and numbers?
 
Eric N.

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