Date   

Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

Ray Breyer
 

Hi Doug,

Judging from the photos, there are actually at least THREE groups of photos in this collection: one during summer, one spring or fall, and one winter (leaves, no leaves, snow).

And I maintain, these are ALL postwar. So far, I've only seen a couple of pre-1934 photos in the entire collection, and ALL of the visual markers in the TP&W collection post-date 1945.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: Douglas Harding
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:20 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2



Ray, regarding dates you are assuming all the photos in the collection were taken at the same time and are posted in sequence. They’re not. Barriger made many trips on the countries railroads over a lengthy career, and he took photos every time. His collection contains photos that range from 1917 up to 1970. The information in his photo albums is only as good as the people who assembled them and wrote down the notations. Barriger did not do this, he had two women who did, some later time after his trips were completed.
 
On the M&StL he took at least two trips, one while snow was on the ground and one we know was in mid 1938. But a study of photos shows photos that indicate at least a third trip may have been taken. But when, I do not know. Further the numbers on the photos do not follow a sequential journey over the railroad. At some time a few of the photos/negatives got shuffled. Further there are gaps in the sequence of photos that have been posted. It this is true with one road, it may very well be true of the Barriger photos from other railroads.
 
Your rational for dating the military move photos is based upon other photos containing an official who took office after the war ended. Unless that official is in the photo of military equipment, I would say that it is quite possible Barriger took photos at least two different times on the railroad in question.
 
Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 





Molded plastic T section "BETTENDORF" freight car trucks NOT having wire springs

Max Robin
 

Hi folks:

 

As an ardent modeler of the NYC freight equipment in service from the mid-teens thru the late 1950s, I am actively seeking a significant volume of  high quality T section “BETTENDORF” 4 wheel freight car trucks.  The NYC was an extremely large purchaser of this style of trucks, especially for use on hopper cars and other high volume mineral hauling cars.  If you don’t know of any plastic ones, I’ll gladly take high quality brass trucks (preferably unequalized and equipped with Code 88 wheels sets).

 

Thanks for any help or pointers.

 

Max

email:     m_robin@...

smail      Cheat River Engineering Inc.

               Max S. Robin, P.E.

               P. O. Box 289

               Denville, NJ 07834

voice:     973-945-5007 (8:00am – 10:00pm M-F), (11:00am – 11:00pm WE & HOL.

)


Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

Douglas Harding
 

Ray, regarding dates you are assuming all the photos in the collection were taken at the same time and are posted in sequence. They’re not. Barriger made many trips on the countries railroads over a lengthy career, and he took photos every time. His collection contains photos that range from 1917 up to 1970. The information in his photo albums is only as good as the people who assembled them and wrote down the notations. Barriger did not do this, he had two women who did, some later time after his trips were completed.

 

On the M&StL he took at least two trips, one while snow was on the ground and one we know was in mid 1938. But a study of photos shows photos that indicate at least a third trip may have been taken. But when, I do not know. Further the numbers on the photos do not follow a sequential journey over the railroad. At some time a few of the photos/negatives got shuffled. Further there are gaps in the sequence of photos that have been posted. It this is true with one road, it may very well be true of the Barriger photos from other railroads.

 

Your rational for dating the military move photos is based upon other photos containing an official who took office after the war ended. Unless that official is in the photo of military equipment, I would say that it is quite possible Barriger took photos at least two different times on the railroad in question.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

Ray Breyer
 

They were pretty common around Peoria from the early 1930s onward. The TP&W and P&PU adopted them at about the same time, as did the Peoria Terminal. And the stripes were ORANGE, which must have looked very odd on the two-tone green TP&W Mountains!

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: "pdnapp@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 7:55 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2



Image number 129 has a steam loco with hazard stripes. I have never seen them on anything except yard diesels. 

James Dawkins





Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

Ray Breyer
 

Hi John,

The full sequence of photos is TP&W 150, 153, 160, 161 and 229. It's pretty obvious that the TP&W photos are among the most mixed up shots in this overall collection!  :-)

As for the dates, I'm pretty positive about them. The TP&W dieselized in the fall of 1950, so the shots have to predate then. The railroad was taken over by the Federal Government in mid-1942, but the trucks in the military train are mid-war (1943-1944) production. Moreover, the lack of stars in circles on the vehicle hoods indicate either very late war or post-war paint. Finally, George McNear was assassinated in April of 1947, and J.R. Coulter didn't come on board as president of the railroad until May; several of the group photos in the collection clearly show him as the focal point of the photos, which likely predate even the Life Magazine feature on his takeover of the railroad from later that same year.
 
Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



From: John Barry
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2



Ray,

What are the numbers of the other three photos?  I didn't see them when I looked at the index.  I disagree about your date though.  Check the 1-41 date on NYC 621900, lack of stars on the hoods of the vehicles and a total lack of unit stenciling on the same.  The vehicle mix also lends itself to a 43-44 timeframe with jeeps, command cars, and the 1940 staff car.  TPW160 &161 are adjacent negatives from the same roll based on their consecutive negative numbers. 
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: Ray Breyer
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

 
There are actually five photos of the train in this sequence (pulled by double-headed 80's), and the train is postwar; R. J. Coulter appears in several of the TP&W shots, so they're post-1947. Most likely, this a Guard training movement.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


From: "borhsarchives@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:04 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2



Two shots of the same MAIN train.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12240737696/in/set-72157640356985686#
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12240736386/in/set-72157640356985686/#










Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

John Barry
 

Ray,

What are the numbers of the other three photos?  I didn't see them when I looked at the index.  I disagree about your date though.  Check the 1-41 date on NYC 621900, lack of stars on the hoods of the vehicles and a total lack of unit stenciling on the same.  The vehicle mix also lends itself to a 43-44 timeframe with jeeps, command cars, and the 1940 staff car.  TPW160 &161 are adjacent negatives from the same roll based on their consecutive negative numbers. 
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682



From: Ray Breyer
To: "STMFC@..."
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

 
There are actually five photos of the train in this sequence (pulled by double-headed 80's), and the train is postwar; R. J. Coulter appears in several of the TP&W shots, so they're post-1947. Most likely, this a Guard training movement.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


From: "borhsarchives@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:04 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2



Two shots of the same MAIN train.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12240737696/in/set-72157640356985686#
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barrigerlibrary/12240736386/in/set-72157640356985686/#






Re: [RPM-forum] Need TAG boxcar info; now N&W round roof box question

Benjamin Hom
 

Chris Frissell wrote:
"It's been often stated that these cars were based on the PRR X-32 plan, but it sounds like you're aware that's not necessarily correct.  At 14ft 6inches the door openings were almost a foot and a half wider, and the number and spacing of side posts and panels differed from the PRR design.  It looks to me that the N&W independently extended the 40-foot X31a/X31b flush roof design to generate their own 50-foot plan."
 
First, NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES!
 
Your assumptions above are incorrect.  PRR did revise the design of their 50 ft round roof automobile cars during the Class X32A production run to increase the door opening to 14 ft 6 in.
 
Cars with 12 ft door openings
X32: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=X32-E400196.gif&sel=box&sz=sm&fr=
X32A: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=x32a.gif&sel=box&sz=sm&fr=
 
Cars with 14 ft 6 in door openings:
X32A/X32B/X32C: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=x32a_x32b_x32c.gif&sel=box&sz=sm&fr=
 
If you have N&W docuemntation prving otherwise, I'd love to see it.
 
 
Ben Hom


Re: Need TAG boxcar info

Eric Lombard
 

Hello All,
I have uploaded a spreadsheet that compiles the service history for all the 50 ft wagon top box cars. The data comes from generally available publications and the ORER and was last updated 8-2012. I can supply the bibliography off line on request.

50 ft Wagon top box cars.xlsx

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Re: [RPM-forum] Need TAG boxcar info; now N&W round roof box question

leakinmywaders
 

I neglected to mention the ex-N&W 50-foot round roof cars leased to the NP were rostered as NP series 39610-39759. 
 
Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
leakinmywaders@...


On Friday, February 14, 2014 8:12 AM, Chris Frissell wrote:
 
Jim: I can share that the NP obtained 150 of the N&W 50-foot cars (NW 52000-52299) on lease from Buffalo Railway Equipment Co. (an affiliate of A.A. Morrison Co.) in late 1961.  They were refurbished at the DT&I's Jackson, OH shops, with new interior wood lining, drop-style reinforced side sills and metal grate running boards; the doors were either replaced, or the original doors extended vertically a few inches with wider joints between the three panel sections. They were painted to NP specifications, and these were the only round roof-style boxcars to carry an NP monad (to the left of the doors).  The initial 6-year lease expired in 1967, but was renewed through 1970 or so for the 80-some cars that still remained in service.  I have no information on disposition after that date; newly-minted BN president Menk had ordered this and most other leases of older boxcars terminated shortly before the merger in April 1970. 

It's been often stated that these cars were based on the PRR X-32 plan, but it sounds like you're aware that's not necessarily correct.  At 14ft 6inches the door openings were almost a foot and a half wider, and the number and spacing of side posts and panels differed from the PRR design.  It looks to me that the N&W independently extended the 40-foot X31a/X31b flush roof design to generate their own 50-foot plan.  

There's quite a bit more detail on the history of this and the ex-DTI 40-and 50-foot round roof boxcars leased by the NP in the NPRHA Mainstreeter Vo. 29, No. 2, Summer 2010. 
 
Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
leakinmywaders@...


On Friday, February 14, 2014 7:35 AM, SMMW wrote:
 
Thanks to all who replied to my TAG question.  I was always curious as to the heritage of TAG, DT&I, OP&E and NP round roof boxes.  Even the Ashley, Drew & Northern ran some 40-foot double door round roof boxes.  These appear to be of PRR design with the rows of widely spaced rivets running parallel to panel seams.
 
What happened to the N&W 40- and 50-foot round roof boxes?  Scrapped?
 
Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
Cell (828) 777-5619
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
 
South-Atlantic Region representative for BJB Products
RTV Silicone moldmaking and urethane casting materials.
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/Urethane_Casting_Materials.html
 





Re: [RPM-forum] Need TAG boxcar info; now N&W round roof box question

leakinmywaders
 

Jim: I can share that the NP obtained 150 of the N&W 50-foot cars (NW 52000-52299) on lease from Buffalo Railway Equipment Co. (an affiliate of A.A. Morrison Co.) in late 1961.  They were refurbished at the DT&I's Jackson, OH shops, with new interior wood lining, drop-style reinforced side sills and metal grate running boards; the doors were either replaced, or the original doors extended vertically a few inches with wider joints between the three panel sections. They were painted to NP specifications, and these were the only round roof-style boxcars to carry an NP monad (to the left of the doors).  The initial 6-year lease expired in 1967, but was renewed through 1970 or so for the 80-some cars that still remained in service.  I have no information on disposition after that date; newly-minted BN president Menk had ordered this and most other leases of older boxcars terminated shortly before the merger in April 1970. 

It's been often stated that these cars were based on the PRR X-32 plan, but it sounds like you're aware that's not necessarily correct.  At 14ft 6inches the door openings were almost a foot and a half wider, and the number and spacing of side posts and panels differed from the PRR design.  It looks to me that the N&W independently extended the 40-foot X31a/X31b flush roof design to generate their own 50-foot plan.  

There's quite a bit more detail on the history of this and the ex-DTI 40-and 50-foot round roof boxcars leased by the NP in the NPRHA Mainstreeter Vo. 29, No. 2, Summer 2010. 
 
Chris Frissell
Polson, MT
leakinmywaders@...


On Friday, February 14, 2014 7:35 AM, SMMW wrote:
 
Thanks to all who replied to my TAG question.  I was always curious as to the heritage of TAG, DT&I, OP&E and NP round roof boxes.  Even the Ashley, Drew & Northern ran some 40-foot double door round roof boxes.  These appear to be of PRR design with the rows of widely spaced rivets running parallel to panel seams.
 
What happened to the N&W 40- and 50-foot round roof boxes?  Scrapped?
 
Jim King
Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.
Cell (828) 777-5619
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com
 
South-Atlantic Region representative for BJB Products
RTV Silicone moldmaking and urethane casting materials.
www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/Urethane_Casting_Materials.html
 



Need TAG boxcar info; now N&W round roof box question

Jim King
 

Thanks to all who replied to my TAG question.  I was always curious as to the heritage of TAG, DT&I, OP&E and NP round roof boxes.  Even the Ashley, Drew & Northern ran some 40-foot double door round roof boxes.  These appear to be of PRR design with the rows of widely spaced rivets running parallel to panel seams.

 

What happened to the N&W 40- and 50-foot round roof boxes?  Scrapped?

 

Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

Cell (828) 777-5619

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com

 

South-Atlantic Region representative for BJB Products

RTV Silicone moldmaking and urethane casting materials.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com/Urethane_Casting_Materials.html

 


Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Semet Solvay Dome Platform (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tom Fedor
 

Thanks Elden.


Re: Digest Number 8519

Joseph Melhorn
 

I don't have the magazine in front of me, but I believe it was RMC September, 1971 - Moisture trap coil for compressors by Anderson, Ed

I'll be going by the train club Saturday and I can pull that issue to verify it.

Joe Melhorn
Sahuarita, AZ


<snip> I built one of the copper tube after coolers from the article you mentioned and it worked fine. I traded the unit to a friend years ago so I don't remember all of the specifics... <more snippage> I remember that piece as well, Jim, but certainly not the issue. You might give Carstens Publications a call to see if they can help track it down.</snip>


Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Semet Solvay Dome Platform (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Guys;

Liquids produced as by-products of the coking process include(d): benzol, phenol, xylol, cresols, coal tars, light oils, pyridine, and other products used by a wide variety of industries. This is a largely unresearched area of tank car use, but I have seen large strings of cars both in-plant, and on the road, that were tied to this industry. Those most evident in my area were GATX and UTLX-owned. (I have my own fleet to represent this end of things).

While some of it was shipped in standard uninsulated ICC 103 tanks, some were thick enough to require cars equipped with heater coils, which provide a clue to what the car in use was intended for. Some by-products were shipped in insulated 103's.

Some by-product plants also produced coal tar chips, which were sometimes shipped in converted box cars; some PRR X31A were given roof hatches and transferred to this dedicated service. The coal tar chips could be used by roofers, so you might get a car like this anywhere.

Before the sixties, ammonium sulfate largely went in box cars, either pumped in like flour, or in bags, so you would not generally have seen 105's in liquid ammonia service back then. I have occasionally seen an early photo of a 105 in that service, but not many.

Semet-Solvay, Hercules, Allied Chemical, and many others were heavily involved in that industry, and due to the wide variety of products, they all had a very interesting fleet mix as a result.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of FrederickJct@hotmail.com
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:25 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] RE: Semet Solvay Dome Platform



Mike,
What was hauled in these tanks?
Wikipedia has the following on Semet-Solvay:
The Hazard family invested in an affiliated business, the Semet-Solvay Company, formed in 1895. Louis Semet, a relative of Ernest and Alfred Solvay, had developed with the brothers a coke oven designed to recover valuable materials formerly wasted in the coking <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coking> process. In 1892 the Solvay Process Company built the first of the ovens in America, forming the Semet-Solvay Company three years later to build and operate them. Coke plants were located in Ashland, Kentucky <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashland,_Kentucky> ; Buffalo, New York <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York> ; Detroit, Michigan <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit,_Michigan> ; and Ironton, Ohio <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironton,_Ohio> . Semet-Solvay operated its own mines <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining> in West Virginia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia> , providing much of its coal supply.


-Tom Fedor, Thurmont, MD



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: Semet Solvay Dome Platform

Tom Fedor
 

Mike,
What was hauled in these tanks?
Wikipedia has the following on Semet-Solvay:
The Hazard family invested in an affiliated business, the Semet-Solvay Company, formed in 1895. Louis Semet, a relative of Ernest and Alfred Solvay, had developed with the brothers a coke oven designed to recover valuable materials formerly wasted in the coking process. In 1892 the Solvay Process Company built the first of the ovens in America, forming the Semet-Solvay Company three years later to build and operate them. Coke plants were located in Ashland, KentuckyBuffalo, New YorkDetroit, Michigan; and Ironton, Ohio. Semet-Solvay operated its own mines in West Virginia, providing much of its coal supply.

-Tom Fedor, Thurmont, MD


Re: Moisture Trap for Air Brush

Tom in Texas
 

I went to the NMRA site and used the magazine index and found this article which is probably the correct one

It was in the September 1971 issue of RMC
Moisture trap coil for compressors
p. 30
Tom in Texas 


Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

pdnapp
 

Image number 129 has a steam loco with hazard stripes. I have never seen them on anything except yard diesels. 

James Dawkins


Re: Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

Ray Breyer
 

There are actually five photos of the train in this sequence (pulled by double-headed 80's), and the train is postwar; R. J. Coulter appears in several of the TP&W shots, so they're post-1947. Most likely, this a Guard training movement.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


From: "borhsarchives@..."
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 11:04 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Military loads on the TP&W during WW2


Military loads on the TP&W during WW2

NicholasF
 


Re: An unusual car - compressed gas

NicholasF
 

I've just flipped and cropped this photo if that can help anyone with the identification.

Take Care
-Nick Fry

70501 - 70520 of 192652