Date   

Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Weathering Hopper Car Interiors (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Curt, and all;

That really is an astoundingly beautiful (and accurate) color photo of that subject....there was a LOT of discussion on it on one of the other lists a number of months ago, and really a lesson in humility for those of us that think we have a handle on how things should look.

This photo clearly demonstrates that a fleet of similar-class PRR hoppers each exhibits a very different weathering patina. The car in front has fairly complete FCC-colored interior, while the one behind it has been reduced to mainly rust. This is in the era when PRR DID paint their hopper interiors, so newer cars should have some version of painted interior. This, of course, feeds into the argument on why PRR freight cars could have features that appeared different from the painting instructions: different shops?, lazy foremen?, different interpretations?

Then, in row two, we have an astounding paint and weathering job. VERY weathered FCC-painted exterior (almost brown), but fairly bright lettering, and an almost gunmetal interior, with significant dark rust-colored patches below. Is this the end effect of NOT painting the interior? That is a really interesting shade of blue in there...

And every other hopper is also unique...the H21A in back with what looks like burnt-off paint over the truck; I used to see this effect on NYC hoppers used in hot coke service.

And look at the color of the Lake ore being placed over one truck in the third row! It is like I remember: almost Redwood colored.

Only a 4x5 Kodachrome could catch that kind of nuancing...

Thanks again, Curt, for that link!

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of curtfortenberry@...
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 12:24 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] RE: Weathering Hopper Car Interiors





Found this photo while surfing:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2799


Gives a little idea of what some of the interiors look like.

Curt Fortenberry





Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

I wondered about this too. It seems unlikely. On the other hand, I've seen the light weight of this BS order given as 41,400. Even a 3,000 lb. increase seems to much for a door.
 
Eric N.
 
 

thanks Al! Do you think the replacement doors could add 4,800 lbs??

Tim O'

>BS 300-399 were built in 1937 by Pullman-Standard; they shared some features with the '37 AAR standard box, but also had the old-fashioned flat end, and were built with unusual plate-steel doors with the locking mechanism in a recessed panel. There's a builder's photo in TS CYC 17 ('43 CBC), p 121. The plate doors were apparently very light: the original light weight was only 39,600 lbs, about halfway between the light weights of a "PS-0" and a standard '37 AAR car. The Vancouver photo, taken in '53, shows seven-panel Superior doors (retrofitted?) and a light weight of 44,400 lbs. These cars are discussed on the RPI site and in Model Railroading 2/1987 p 7.
>
>Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Maybe I should have said non-corrugated or non-pressed. :-) The roof on the RDG class XMu USRA derivative and some later RDG designs were similar. As far as I know, this type originated on the ARA "X-29" design. Perhaps these were non-proprietary designs intended to reduce reliance on more costy proprietay types. Typically the rivet lines on the lap seam roof (and apt name, by the way) come in pairs. The flanges of an internal pressed steel hat section correspond two the rivet lines. Rivets are are spaced closer at the roof seams. The construction of the "X-29" flat end is similar. Some cars have a similar side construction as well. So, twin rivet lines = invisible hat section.
 
Eric N.
 

Eric my notes say that it is a "lap seam" roof, but I'm not sure
where that came from. The only photo I've ever seen before was in
one of the Train Shed Cyclopedia reprints.

Tim O'


It also has a flat plate roof (internal carlines). P-S lot 5541.
 
Eric N.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:28 PM
Subject: [STMFC] BS box car... more info please!

Is this an AAR 1937 box car with flat plate riveted ends?
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/birmingham-southern-railway-boxcar-325;rad

Tim O'Connor


Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Considering what happens to one's collection data after death is important, especially if there are items that don't exist anywhere else. I've given relatives names of people I respect so they have help in deciding what to do with it. Those people also know who they are. I'm reluctant to determine a beneficiary in advance because things change and I'd hate to see the material to go where it is practically inaccessible. I'm publishing what I have as quickly as I can organize it, but this is more time consuming that most people would realize. I'd also rather see the material in the private hands of a motivated and generous person than any organization with competing interests.
 
Eric N.
 

Dave

I plan to donate my brain to a railroad historical society. :-)

Or maybe just my hard drive... there are literally gigabytes
of emails, spreadsheets, pdfs, jpgs, text files (notes), etc
that will be eternally searchable.

Tim O'Connor

>Mark,
>The knowledge available on this group is quite impressive, but as far as I know none of the biologically based, analog computers responding to our queries are eternal. Granted this list is to help today's modelers build historically accurate models, but it is also obvious that many of the answers on this list are not direct quotes from books or official historical society documents. I suspect there are a lot more answers out in the collective memories of this group (in biologic, hard copy, or private electronic forms) than have been recorded in this list's archives.
>
>The director of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, when asked why a famous, last of its class steam engine was not being restored to running condition, reminded people that his job was to make sure the locomotive would still be representative of the age of steam in a museum 200 years from now.
>
>Interesting perspective - based on the passion exhibited by this group, I would suggest that, among the members of this group, there is an amount of "historians" equal to the amount of "modelers." The question is how to preserve all of that privately held historical information.
>
>Dave Evans


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

It certainly isn’t as good as Keanu Reeves.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, February 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...







Chuck

If you're referring to the Yahoo archival message search, I think it became
broken when
Yahoo switched to the "neo" format. If "neo" is a synonym for "almost"
"ersatz" "pseudo"
or "faux" then I think they chose the name well.

Tim O'Connor



I just tried to „search‰ at this site and all I got were automobile ads and
Enterprise car rental.

Chuck Higdon







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Tim O'Connor
 

Chuck

If you're referring to the Yahoo archival message search, I think it became broken when
Yahoo switched to the "neo" format. If "neo" is a synonym for "almost" "ersatz" "pseudo"
or "faux" then I think they chose the name well.

Tim O'Connor



I just tried to �search� at this site and all I got were automobile ads and Enterprise car rental.

Chuck Higdon


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

I plan to donate my brain to a railroad historical society. :-)

Or maybe just my hard drive... there are literally gigabytes
of emails, spreadsheets, pdfs, jpgs, text files (notes), etc
that will be eternally searchable.

Tim O'Connor

Mark,
The knowledge available on this group is quite impressive, but as far as I know none of the biologically based, analog computers responding to our queries are eternal. Granted this list is to help today's modelers build historically accurate models, but it is also obvious that many of the answers on this list are not direct quotes from books or official historical society documents. I suspect there are a lot more answers out in the collective memories of this group (in biologic, hard copy, or private electronic forms) than have been recorded in this list's archives.

The director of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, when asked why a famous, last of its class steam engine was not being restored to running condition, reminded people that his job was to make sure the locomotive would still be representative of the age of steam in a museum 200 years from now.

Interesting perspective - based on the passion exhibited by this group, I would suggest that, among the members of this group, there is an amount of "historians" equal to the amount of "modelers." The question is how to preserve all of that privately held historical information.

Dave Evans


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Ed Hawkins
 

On Feb 27, 2014, at 11:25 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Eric my notes say that it is a "lap seam" roof, but I'm not sure
where that came from. The only photo I've ever seen before was in
one of the Train Shed Cyclopedia reprints.
Tim,
From the Pullman-Standard bill of materials for lot 5541, the following is summary information compiled from the document for this light-weight box car:

Pullman Flat Plate Ends; Pullman Riveted Roof; Pullman Welded Doors, Equipco H/B; Wood R/B & B/S; Cor-Ten plates for side, end, and roof sheets, doors. AAR Type Spring Plank Type Trucks (TCI); One Wear Steel Wheels.
Brown Paint (no mfg. specified) - Sides, Ends, Roof, R/B, U/F, Trucks. White - Stencils

Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Tim O'Connor
 

thanks Al! Do you think the replacement doors could add 4,800 lbs??

Tim O'

BS 300-399 were built in 1937 by Pullman-Standard; they shared some features with the '37 AAR standard box, but also had the old-fashioned flat end, and were built with unusual plate-steel doors with the locking mechanism in a recessed panel. There's a builder's photo in TS CYC 17 ('43 CBC), p 121. The plate doors were apparently very light: the original light weight was only 39,600 lbs, about halfway between the light weights of a "PS-0" and a standard '37 AAR car. The Vancouver photo, taken in '53, shows seven-panel Superior doors (retrofitted?) and a light weight of 44,400 lbs. These cars are discussed on the RPI site and in Model Railroading 2/1987 p 7.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Tim O'Connor
 


Eric my notes say that it is a "lap seam" roof, but I'm not sure
where that came from. The only photo I've ever seen before was in
one of the Train Shed Cyclopedia reprints.

Tim O'


It also has a flat plate roof (internal carlines). P-S lot 5541.
 
Eric N.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: stmfc@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:28 PM
Subject: [STMFC] BS box car... more info please!

Is this an AAR 1937 box car with flat plate riveted ends?
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/birmingham-southern-railway-boxcar-325;rad

Tim O'Connor


Re: Weathering Hopper Car Interiors

Curt Fortenberry
 


Found this photo while surfing:


Gives a little idea of what some of the interiors look like.

Curt Fortenberry



Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Chuck Higdon
 

I just tried to “search” at this site and all I got were automobile ads and Enterprise car rental.

 

Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at

https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 7:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

 

I don’t recall seeing any mention of the Steam Era Freight Cars website.  There is a lot of very useful information there and the technical backbone to continue to build, but I don’t know if anything is still being actively added.  Rob Adams?  What’s up with the site?

 

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/

 

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Brian carlson
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

 

I guess I don't fully understand the need, or more correctly I see two separate goals.
One is a desire to create a grand database of information from a scholarly standpoint. This would be very involved and something that would take a long time.
The second is more specific. I need to model a specific car at a specific time for my layout. This request is easily and often handled by this list. Many list members have personally helped me over the years. Also, as freight car lovers most of us have library's and magazines. Roughly 2 RPCs a year, RMJ back issues from train life, RMC Essential Freight Cars, add in some other society books such as the ATSF and PFE Reefer books, SP and ATSF boxcar books, online ezines like TKM, ACL/SCL and others, Jim Hayes sunshine site, terry Link's site, and Rob S PRR site you can create a nice freight car library without much effort. I'd post links to these sites but I'm on my phone. Granted some books like Metcalfe's UP book are tough to find. But as Greg Martin says feed your head. But if you don't have the info ask they list and someone will have the answer. Before Neo messed up the archives the archives were like a wiki.
Brian Carlson.


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

devansprr
 

Mark,
The knowledge available on this group is quite impressive, but as far as I know none of the biologically based, analog computers responding to our queries are eternal. Granted this list is to help today's modelers build historically accurate models, but it is also obvious that many of the answers on this list are not direct quotes from books or official historical society documents. I suspect there are a lot more answers out in the collective memories of this group (in biologic, hard copy, or private electronic forms) than have been recorded in this list's archives.

The director of the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, when asked why a famous, last of its class steam engine was not being restored to running condition, reminded people that his job was to make sure the locomotive would still be representative of the age of steam in a museum 200 years from now.

Interesting perspective - based on the passion exhibited by this group, I would suggest that, among the members of this group, there is an amount of "historians" equal to the amount of "modelers." The question is how to preserve all of that privately held historical information.

Dave Evans


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

devansprr
 

Eric,

I agree. The RPI site is one of the first places I go to when searching for heralds and general info. They cover a lot of the less well known railroads, some or even many of which may not have active historical societies. Not wanting to re-open the fleet balance debate, it is important to note that in 1943, while 12 roads owned about 50% of the box car fleet, 10% of the box cars were owned by 89 of the "lesser" roads (30 other roads held the other 40%). The big roads are well represented on the web and by historical societies, but the lesser roads are not so well represented - maybe only a book. The RPI site is the only site I know that has attempted to create a consolidated list - seems they are worth supporting - just as a time-saver I view the RPI site as money well spent, and the breadth of the content is quite informative.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <eric@...> wrote:

I had thought the Rensselaer Railroad Heritage site of the RPI Model Railroad Group was functioning as a collective for prototype information. 

Of course, it's difficult to document every single prototype detail.

Eric Hansmann
El Paso, TX


Sunshine Models 32' trailers on EBay

Bill McCoy
 

I have just listed on EBay 2 Sunshine Models 32' Fruehauf trailer kits, 82.3,  Overnite, and 82.4,  Smiths Transfer, NIB

 

Bill McCoy

Strasburg, PA


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Also, for a single, printed source for boxcar information, including lots of photos, one of the primo sources is Ted Culotta’s Reference Manuals, especially the boxcar volume.

 

http://speedwitchmedia.com/product/steam-era-freight-cars-reference-manual-volume-one/

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Steve and Barb Hile
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:00 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

 

I don’t recall seeing any mention of the Steam Era Freight Cars website.  There is a lot of very useful information there and the technical backbone to continue to build, but I don’t know if anything is still being actively added.  Rob Adams?  What’s up with the site?

 

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/

 

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Brian carlson
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

 

I guess I don't fully understand the need, or more correctly I see two separate goals.
One is a desire to create a grand database of information from a scholarly standpoint. This would be very involved and something that would take a long time.
The second is more specific. I need to model a specific car at a specific time for my layout. This request is easily and often handled by this list. Many list members have personally helped me over the years. Also, as freight car lovers most of us have library's and magazines. Roughly 2 RPCs a year, RMJ back issues from train life, RMC Essential Freight Cars, add in some other society books such as the ATSF and PFE Reefer books, SP and ATSF boxcar books, online ezines like TKM, ACL/SCL and others, Jim Hayes sunshine site, terry Link's site, and Rob S PRR site you can create a nice freight car library without much effort. I'd post links to these sites but I'm on my phone. Granted some books like Metcalfe's UP book are tough to find. But as Greg Martin says feed your head. But if you don't have the info ask they list and someone will have the answer. Before Neo messed up the archives the archives were like a wiki.
Brian Carlson.


Re: C&WC auto box

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

Note that the car is marked 40-6, built 1-19 and rebuilt 11-40. These are all the clues needed to determine that it is probably nee C&WC 8000-8299 built by ACF as a double sheathed USRA box car and rebuilt into an auto car in series 9000-9146.
 
The dividend for me was getting a month-year built for the C&WC series. ACF built this design at three different locations, each with a different lot number: 8571, 8572, and 8589. Unfortunately, not all the cars built (including C&WC 8000-8299) have been connected with a particular location. At least the 1-19 built date seems to rule out 8589 for C&WC.
 
Eric N.
 
 

 

this car looks like a 40 foot dsxm, rebuilt into a 50 footer, in
length,
and raised to a 10'6" height, anyone have any info on it?

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/charleston-and-western-carolina-
box-car-9103-automobile;rad

thanks
mel perry


Re: C&WC auto box

earlyrail
 


8a
C&WC auto box
Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:21 pm (PST) . Posted by:
clipper841@...
this car looks like a 40 foot dsxm, rebuilt into a 50 footer, in
length,
and raised to a 10'6" height, anyone have any info on it?

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/charleston-and-western-carolina-
box-car-9103-automobile;rad
From the October 1958 ORER

series 9000-9146 40'6", 9'2", 10'4", 3836 cu ft, 80000cpy 124 cars in series

Howard Garner

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com


Re: BS box car... more info please!

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

It also has a flat plate roof (internal carlines). P-S lot 5541.
 
Eric N.
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:28 PM
Subject: [STMFC] BS box car... more info please!

 


Is this an AAR 1937 box car with flat plate riveted ends?
http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/birmingham-southern-railway-boxcar-325;rad

Tim O'Connor


Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I don’t recall seeing any mention of the Steam Era Freight Cars website.  There is a lot of very useful information there and the technical backbone to continue to build, but I don’t know if anything is still being actively added.  Rob Adams?  What’s up with the site?

 

http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/

 

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Brian carlson
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:23 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Eras, Paint Schemes and Slogans - the problem ...

 

 

I guess I don't fully understand the need, or more correctly I see two separate goals.
One is a desire to create a grand database of information from a scholarly standpoint. This would be very involved and something that would take a long time.
The second is more specific. I need to model a specific car at a specific time for my layout. This request is easily and often handled by this list. Many list members have personally helped me over the years. Also, as freight car lovers most of us have library's and magazines. Roughly 2 RPCs a year, RMJ back issues from train life, RMC Essential Freight Cars, add in some other society books such as the ATSF and PFE Reefer books, SP and ATSF boxcar books, online ezines like TKM, ACL/SCL and others, Jim Hayes sunshine site, terry Link's site, and Rob S PRR site you can create a nice freight car library without much effort. I'd post links to these sites but I'm on my phone. Granted some books like Metcalfe's UP book are tough to find. But as Greg Martin says feed your head. But if you don't have the info ask they list and someone will have the answer. Before Neo messed up the archives the archives were like a wiki.
Brian Carlson.

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