Date   

Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Hansmann
 

As a modeler focused on the mid-1920s, box and ventilator cars that are less than 40-foot length have garnered my attention as they are a significant portion of the US freight car fleet. I have noted the decline of these cars over the next two decades and the WW2 years seem to be the last major use for 36-foot box cars as a decent percentage of the box car fleet. The New York Central lines listed over 5000 short, double sheathed box cars, many of which sported inverted Murphy corrugated steel ends.

Assembled below you will find XM only recapitulation summary data of individual lines from the 1943 ORER. Quantities of 40-foot and 50-foot cars are included to offer perspective on the less than 40-foot car quantities. Quantities of VS, VA, XV, XA, XAB, and similar AAR designations were not included, but noted in a couple of examples.

NYC

50-foot, 6-inch - 500 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 42,391 cars

Less than 40-foot - 2894 cars

 

Boston & Albany

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 994 cars

Less than 40-foot - 1217 cars

 

Cleveland Cincinnati Chicago & St Louis

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 3293 cars

Less than 40-foot - 146 cars

 

Michigan Central

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 2211 cars

Less than 40-foot - 65 cars

Also listed 632 less than 40-foot cars designated as XAB

 

Pittsburgh & Lake Erie

50-foot, 6-inch - 100 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 2993 cars

Less than 40-foot - 888 cars

 

PMcK&Y

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 570 cars

Less than 40-foot - 303 cars

 

Here are the overall numbers for the NYC System

50-foot, 6-inch - 600 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 51,458 cars

Less than 40-foot - 5513 cars

Does not include the MC XAB shorties

 

And a few other railroads with significant numbers of less than 40-foot box cars listed in the 1943 ORER, as compared with the rest of their XM fleet.

Reading

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 3964 cars

Less than 40-foot - 3013 cars

 

Central RR of New Jersey

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 2328 cars

Less than 40-foot - 552 cars

 

Delaware Lackawanna & Western

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 5196 cars

Less than 40-foot - 1943 cars

 

Erie

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 7559 cars

Less than 40-foot - 2336 cars

 

Delaware & Hudson

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 689 cars

Less than 40-foot - 1811 cars

 

New Haven

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 1000 cars

Less than 40-foot - 7016 cars

 

Nickel Plate Road

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 5368 cars

Less than 40-foot - 1089 cars

 

Chesapeake & Ohio

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 8555 cars

Less than 40-foot - 1806 cars

 

Louisville & Nashville

50-foot, 6-inch - 300 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 5641 cars

Less than 40-foot - 7753 cars

Also lists 2096 ventilator cars of 36-foot length

 

Southern

50-foot, 6-inch - 0 cars

40-foot to 40-foot, 7-inch - 11,348 cars

Less than 40-foot - 13678 cars

 

Outside of the ACL and SAL ventilator car fleets, these are probably the majority of the US railroads with a decent proportion of less than 40-foot XM box cars listed in the 1943 ORER. I did this quickly, so I’m probably missing a plum or two. 


I chose to focus on US railroads for this information, so the list does not include several thousand Canadian National and Canadian Pacific Fowler/Dominion design box cars that were less than 40-foot in length.

 

Eric Hansmann

El Paso, TX


Re: sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

David Sieber
 

Gentlemen,
 
     May I remind you of Ray Breyer's outstanding and comprehensive spreadsheet in the STMFC files, All Short Boxcars, 1930-1959 (Ray Breyer).xls . It details 1,382(!) series of short boxcars by roadname, reporting marks and road numbers, with outside dimensions, cuft and CAPY, plus ORER totals for each series in 1930, 1945, 1950, 1951, 1955, 1957 and 1959. It also includes spreadsheets on total quantities of all boxcars by roadname for each of those years, and on HO kits that could be used to model short boxcars still in use post WWII, with the year last in service. That hopefully should answer many questions on short boxcars; it certainly gave me a couple of hours of study to see what 36-38 footers might still be seen in my Transition modeling era!
 
HTH, Dave Sieber, Reno NV


Re: Fw: Future Floor Wax

Curt Fortenberry
 

 
In my area the only place that sells it is Walmart.  None of the other big box stores carry it.
 
Curt Fortenberry


Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler Issue 22 now on line

Justin May <jmay59@...>
 

For those interested, the newest issue of the Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler is now available via the ACL & SAL Historical Society's website.

http://s-clmodeler.aclsal.org/index.htm

This issue contains modeling a SAL F-6 flat car in S scale from the Chad Boas resin kit, modeling an ACL O-25 boxcar, part 1 of modeling Georgia Railroad's NW2 fleet, and several pertinent reviews of existing models and new products.

We always welcome feedback, articles, and questions should anyone wish to contribute.

Justin May


Re: sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

devansprr
 

Rob,
This is not unexpected. 1946 would be a tough year to project cars in use, but in the January 1943 ORER NMRA reproduced, around 135,000 sub-40 foot boxcars were on the register. Now 62,000 of those cars were CP and CN, and we have had lots of discussions about how often and how far south into the US these cars would reach - but I would guess about 95% of the US is north of Port Arthur, Texas....
I will confess that when I did this analysis about 9 years ago just after returning to the hobby I failed to distinguish between XM and other X variants, so these numbers are not just for XM's. But ignoring CP, CN and the Mexican roads, the US sub-40 foot box car fleet outnumbered the US 50 foot box car fleet 70841 to 47936 (9.5% and 6.4% respectively of the combined X fleet - a total of ~743,000 cars)
Below, as of January 1943, are US RR's with significant sub-40 foot fleets, percentage of their total X* fleet, and the number of 50 foot box cars they also owned (note that I am sure these numbers are not exact - I didn't count each RR's cars exactly):
SOU      13678  43%   200
L&N         7753  52%   397
NYNH&H 7016  88%       0 (NYNH only had 1000 40' cars in 1943!)
ATSF       3448  10%  3611
RDG        3063  40%   309
NC&Stl    3047  76%       0
NYC        2904    6%  2699
CB&Q     2508   10% 2271
Erie         2336  20%   497
DL&W     1943  25%       0
D&H        1811  72%       0
C&O        1806  14%   200
GTW        1672  19% 1079
MP           1637    9% 1296
MSP...      1364   13%  998   (SOO)
BAR         1325   55%     0
B&A         1217
   55%     0
P&LE       1191   24%  200
NYC&Stl  1091   14%  200   (NKP)
StLSF      1084     8%  300
GM&O     1051   26%      0
D&RGW    795   16%  485
MC            697   17%      0
CI&L         615    58%     0 (Monon)
CofNJ       552    18%     0
CV            412    34%     0
The 26 US railroads listed above had a total of 300,000 box cars (40% of the US fleet)! 66,000 sub-40 cars (over 20%), 220,000 40 footers (so that is one sub-40 footer for every 3.3 40 footers!), and only 14,500 50 footers (four sub-40 footers for every 50 footer!). Of these railroads only the ATSF had more 50 foot cars than sub-40 footers. When building a WWII fleet, clearly the sub-40 cars need to be broadly and significantly represented. And this is without any of the Canadian 36' cars.

The remaining sub-40 cars total 4485 and were spread across at least 53 different reporting marks (getting into the secondary roads).

So in WWII I guess I would disagree with the characterization that the sub-40 footers were often secondary roads. But I suspect the sub-40's that survived the end of WWII quickly found themselves on the secondary roads - not only were they short in length, but they were typically narrow and short in height -  just over half the cubic capacity of 50 foot cars being produced at the end of 1945. The sub-40's weren't long for continued use by the major carriers - and most didn't survive at all - post-war the majors began selling off their 1920's steel 40 footers to the secondary roads as the majors headed for higher cube 40 and 50 footers.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Allen – I’d dearly love to see the car numbers of the CP cars in that sample.   As a modeller I had written off the sub 40 footers for all but MOW and other OCS service for my 1946 era, so this comes as cool news.
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47
 


As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

The Reading which was generally a very progressive railroad, still had 968 cars in the 1918-built 4000-4999 series in 1-45. Their classes built before XMp, the first class with steel reinforced ends, were pretty much gone by then despite many being rebuilt with steel ends, but class XMp and XMr were nearly intact. It appears that age and condition were more important factors than length when retiring cars.
 
Eric N.
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 12:10 PM, water.kresse@... wrote:


The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe.
That may be true, Al, but most of the 84230-84729,84730-86499 box cars and the 86500-86999 series ventilated box cars, all 36’ wood-bodied cars with steel ends and underframes built in 1923, remained in revenue service through WW II and some lasted into the ‘50s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

riverman_vt@...
 

Hi Rob,
  
     While I cannot offer car numbers it can be stated that some 36 ft. CPR Dominion box cars were still 
seen on the Lyndonville (Vt.) Subdivision in the post WW II era as well. The same can be said of the CNR
Dominion cars that were coming down the Central Vermont. By 1970, when I began taking photos in earnest, they were a very rare sight but were seen once in a great while, the last being a Grand Trunk car at White 
River Jct., VT about that time.
Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Fw: Future Floor Wax

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Another acrylic product that might work is Minwax Polycrylic sealer, which comes in gloss and matte. This stuff thins and cleans up with water. It is a milky white, but dries clear. I'm not sure if it could be used for models, but I've sealed a lot of my arrows with it.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 4/13/14 11:24 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:
 

Bill I think the key is took for the ingredient, 100% clear acrylic.

 

Here is a more complete story which covers are the variations and brand names: http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html  

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 








Re: sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

Robert kirkham
 

Allen – I’d dearly love to see the car numbers of the CP cars in that sample.   As a modeller I had written off the sub 40 footers for all but MOW and other OCS service for my 1946 era, so this comes as cool news.
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47
 


As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


sub 40' XM on inside gateway '47

Allen Rueter
 

As long as people are talking about '36 XM cars,
south bound the Bieber, CA Oct '47 shows about 2.5% boxcars under '40 (mostly 36, but some
35 and 39 footers) , but less than 1% north bound, go figure.

Some more commons ones were,
8 SOU XM 36 162000-169769, and three others in different series.
4 LN XM 36 10000-11999, and five others in different series.
4 ERIE XM 35 93000-93999,
Also present: CP, RDG, DH, BA, MKT, ATSF, CO, CBQ, PLE

Allen Rueter , Richard's Yard book, Dave's DB


Re: Fw: Future Floor Wax

Douglas Harding
 

Bill I think the key is took for the ingredient, 100% clear acrylic.

 

Here is a more complete story which covers are the variations and brand names: http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html  

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Benjamin Hom
 

Al Kresse wrote:
"The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe."

According to Appendix A of the C&OHS "Freight Car Equipment of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway August 1, 1937":
C&O 3250-3349, 2 cars remaining in May 1938, last cars retired in 1938.
C&O 3350-3749, 7 cars remaining in May 1938, last cars retired in 1938.


Ben Hom


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 12:10 PM, water.kresse@... wrote:

The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe.
That may be true, Al, but most of the 84230-84729,84730-86499 box cars and the 86500-86999 series ventilated box cars, all 36’ wood-bodied cars with steel ends and underframes built in 1923, remained in revenue service through WW II and some lasted into the ‘50s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe War Emergency Boxcars

michaelegross <michaelEGross@...>
 

Dear Bill,

I have a pdf drawing of the BX-38 if you want to contact me off-line.

Cheers!

Michael Gross
La Cañada, CA


Fw: Future Floor Wax

Benjamin Hom
 

Bill Pardie asked:

"I know that the Future floor wax which many used as a base
for applying decals evolved into Pledge with Future.  I was
looking in a store this morning and now the Pledge does
not have the word Future on the label.  Is this product now
a thing of the past?"


No - it's still around.
http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-11182-Future-Acrylic-Finish/dp/B000ARPH4C


Ben Hom


Future Floor Wax

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I know that the Future floor wax which many used as a base
for applying decals evolved into Pledge with Future. I was
looking in a store this morning and now the Pledge does
not have the word Future on the label. Is this product now
a thing of the past?

Bill Pardie


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

water.kresse@...
 

The C&Os 1910-blt 3250 and 3300 series box cars only made it into the late-30s I believe.

 

Al Kresse


From: "Richard Hendrickson" To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:34:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE


On Apr 13, 2014, at 10:39 AM, jon miller wrote:

>
> On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
>> Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.
>
>     This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply’s.

Jon, that 10% figure is a bit misleading, as many of the 36’ box cars that were still in service during WW II were older and/or second-hand cars owned by short lines and seldom or never went very far off line.  Among the class 1 railroads, those that were buying new 36’ box cars in the 1920s were mostly southeastern RRs:  Southern, L&N, C&O, etc. (the Southern was still taking delivery of new 36’ wood box cars with truss rod underframes as late as 1927).

Since you model the Santa Fe, however, it’s worth noting that the AT&SF still had almost 4,000 36’ box cars on its active roster in 10/41, and that was somewhat more than 10% of the box car  fleet - about one of every seven cars.  A few of those were cars acquired second hand with the purchase of the KCM&O and various short lines, but most were wood-bodied cars of classes Bx-O and Bx-W, -X, -Y, and -Z built in 1906-’15 and upgraded in the early ‘30s to become classes Bx-14 through Bx-17.  They tended to be used mostly in company and short-haul service, but I have a photo of one as far off line as Pensacola, FL.  Fortunately, Al Westerfield produced resin kits for models of those cars, and to model 1941 you should definitely have at least 2 or 3 of them.  Replacing those obsolete cars was the reason for the very large order for new 40’ steel box cars that was delivered in late 1941 and 1942, the 5,000+ cars of class Bx-37.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 13, 2014, at 10:39 AM, jon miller <atsfus@...> wrote:


On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

    This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply’s.

Jon, that 10% figure is a bit misleading, as many of the 36’ box cars that were still in service during WW II were older and/or second-hand cars owned by short lines and seldom or never went very far off line.  Among the class 1 railroads, those that were buying new 36’ box cars in the 1920s were mostly southeastern RRs:  Southern, L&N, C&O, etc. (the Southern was still taking delivery of new 36’ wood box cars with truss rod underframes as late as 1927).

Since you model the Santa Fe, however, it’s worth noting that the AT&SF still had almost 4,000 36’ box cars on its active roster in 10/41, and that was somewhat more than 10% of the box car  fleet - about one of every seven cars.  A few of those were cars acquired second hand with the purchase of the KCM&O and various short lines, but most were wood-bodied cars of classes Bx-O and Bx-W, -X, -Y, and -Z built in 1906-’15 and upgraded in the early ‘30s to become classes Bx-14 through Bx-17.  They tended to be used mostly in company and short-haul service, but I have a photo of one as far off line as Pensacola, FL.  Fortunately, Al Westerfield produced resin kits for models of those cars, and to model 1941 you should definitely have at least 2 or 3 of them.  Replacing those obsolete cars was the reason for the very large order for new 40’ steel box cars that was delivered in late 1941 and 1942, the 5,000+ cars of class Bx-37.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

jon miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 4/13/2014 10:00 AM, devans1@... wrote:
Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

    This is interesting.  Does this mean we should have at least 10% of our fleet as 36' cars, assuming we are modeling prewar or during?  I'm not  hunting for a large discussion on this, maybe just a few reply's.

-- 

Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax--Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: WWII Freight Movements to the Charleston POE

devansprr
 

Ike, John,
The Army's official WWII history "The Transportation Corps: Movements, Training and Supply" from the Technical Services series lists Montgomery, AL as one of the ten major Transit storage locations during WWII (as was Lathrop).  A storage depot was also established at Montgomery. So the routing may have made sense if the cars were routed through Montgomery. I think the Montgomery routing would occur if the ship out of Charleston had not yet been identified/scheduled when the oil left Port Arthur. I'm not knowledgeable on SE US rail routes during WWII, but once in Montgomery, moving the cargo over CofG and ACL to Charleston might make more sense (CofG from Montgomery to Savannah via Columbus and Macon, then ACL to Charleston)?

The other Army transit storage locations serving the southeast US were Richmond, VA and Shreveport, LA

This is most likely lubricants, so it would be in barrels or even something smaller (square metal cans?) - I do not think crude oil was shipped overseas, and once refined, I think the Army labeled fuel as fuel (at least for diesel and gasoline), not oil. Curious that at least two of the cars are 36 foot box cars - during WWII 36 foot box cars represented over 10% of the North American boxcar fleet.

BTW, the Army's book "Global Logistics and Strategy: 1940-1943" has a map that suggests nearly all cargo out of the Charleston POE was destined for the middle east via the Red Sea, Iran, Southwestern Russia via Iran, and the China-Burma-India (CBI) theater, all via the Indian Ocean. There were shipments of locomotives (including diesels) and rolling stock to Iran for a railroad that ran to the Caspian Sea operated by the Army's Military Railway Service (that railroad was standard gauge, unlike the Russian broad gauge.) That "line-of-communication" (Army for supply route) from Charleston to the Caspian Sea would have included US "lend-lease" shipments to Russia.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <northbaylines@...> wrote :

Ike,

I know this is a very late reply, but I just found this thread and did not see a response to one of your questions. 

As far as I can tell, CP, NdeM and any other car sitting on US rails was subject to ODT orders.  They tried to stay out of the way as much as possible, but a significant portion of their work was to avoid congestion in the ports.  Hence the nationwide system of holding and reconsignment points like Lathrop for the SF POE.  The records I've seen at San Bruno deal mostly with special cases and exceptional movements like the consolidation of alcohol from various producers and the transfer of another batch from storage in Louisianna to Richmond for loading on several Soviet tankers.  

John Barry
Cameron Park, CA 

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