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ottokroutil
 

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Balryan
 

Hi! News: http://arananadam.com/cgm/view.php

               

 

balryan@...


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

naptownprr
 

Tony,

Even if the artist painted from life, he's still going to give us what he/she saw in a certain light, and with highlights, shadows, etc. Grif Teller was great, but, with all due respect, I would not rely on a painting as a conclusive guide. I would also look at lots of photos from different sources, and take into consideration lighting, type of film, etc. I would also consult people in the historical society associated with the railroad that owned the equipment in question.

In the end, I suppose, we modelers make our best guesses as to how something looked.

Jim



Quoting Tony Thompson <tony@signaturepress.com>:

Jim Hunter. wrote:
But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.
That depends. If the artist painted from life, I think you
might think it was actually pretty good. In the case of the famous
Grif Teller calendar paintings for PRR, we know he DID paint from
life. I would not hesitate to match a freight car to a Teller
painting. If, that is, I morphed into a SPF.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history





The ORPTE (was Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER)

Dick Harley
 

The "Passenger ORER" was actually titled the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE).

The first issue was March 1943, and it was issued twice a year (March & September) until it became an annual in 1950.
The last issue was #36 in March 1971.

It did contain freight carrying express cars.


Just the facts,
Dick Harley
Laguna Beach, CA


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

John C. La Rue, Jr. <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

It depends on the era. Way back when the ORER was still called "The Official Railway Equipment Guide" (in the 1890s), there was comparatively little work equipment designated as such. Such cars as cranes, steam shovels, pile drivers, snowplows, flangers, and a few other dedicated cars, were the only ones listed. They were quite frequently listed with  the freight cars. Other work equipment was usually freight cars that had been commandeered from their usual purposes. That such cars were being used in MW service was usually not noted. If they were listed, the numbers were often still freight car numbers.
 
By the 1920s, work equipment of all kinds was being listed, sometimes in detail, and usually in a separate section of a railroad's roster pages. Some railroads never listed their nonrevenue cars, but many roads, large and small, did. But, as time went on, most lines dropped those listings, since the cars were obviously not being interchanged. The last major hold-out was the Norfolk & Western, which continued up until the ORER was reformatted in the early 1970s.
 
Early ORERs are troves of rosters of work equipment. I am compiling an all-time list of cranes, etc., used on all common-carrier railroads in North America, and the ORERs, along with ICC valuation reports, are the chief sources of data.
 
John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: jimbetz
To: STMFC Sent: Tue, Apr 15, 2014 6:55 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

 
Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Betz wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service equipment is and always was specifically excluded from the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of cars that might show up in interchange service". True???


      As Eric Neubauer already pointed out, yes, you are wrong. A number of railroads DID list MW equipment in the ORER, it was their option.

Tony Thompson




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Tony Thompson
 

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment. 


       I think the NMRA introduction is probably right. I have Issue No. 2 of the Passenger ORER, and it is dated September 1943.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Hunter. wrote:

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

       That depends. If the artist painted from life, I think you might think it was actually pretty good. In the case of the famous Grif Teller calendar paintings for PRR, we know he DID paint from life. I would not hesitate to match a freight car to a Teller painting. If, that is, I morphed into a SPF.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

mrprksr <mrprksr@...>
 

I always get a kick out of these proto color discussions....I put 42 years as a conductor on PRR thru NS.....I've seen the cabin tracks at Enola, Pa and Meadows, NJ with many cabin cars on them....I started when crews had assigned cabins.....and you would be hard pressed to see 2 cabins in the exact same hue......Tuscan passenger cars were the same thing....I would attend a PRRT&HS annual meetings and here the "experts" say a car was the wrong color and then watch movies that night of trains going around horseshoe curve and any shade of tuscan you wanted was there,.....Enjoy the hobby....it's suppose to be fun....Don't take yourselves too seriously.....Lar


From: Paul Hillman
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 
Jim, No you can't, but Bruce Smith's, etc. description of the Pennsy FCC 1940 color being a more reddish/orange color seems to be a close rendition of the artist's.
 
I just think that it's a nice faded-color rendering and seems to follow the FCC 1940 description. Photos are color deceptive also.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 
But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim

Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@...>:

> The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
>
> I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
> brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
> original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
> I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
> hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
> Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
>
> The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
> the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
> reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
>
> Paul Hillman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce F. Smith> To: STMFC@...> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce Smith
> Auburn, AL
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: STMFC@...
> [STMFC@...] on behalf of
> chris_hillman@...
> [chris_hillman@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
>
> What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
> Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
> maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
>
> Thanks, Paul Hillman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

Jim, No you can't, but Bruce Smith's, etc. description of the Pennsy FCC 1940 color being a more reddish/orange color seems to be a close rendition of the artist's.
 
I just think that it's a nice faded-color rendering and seems to follow the FCC 1940 description. Photos are color deceptive also.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim

Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@...>:

> The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
>
> I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
> brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
> original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
> I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
> hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
> Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
>
> The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
> the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
> reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
>
> Paul Hillman
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce F. Smith
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!
>
>
> Regards
> Bruce Smith
> Auburn, AL
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: STMFC@...
> [STMFC@...] on behalf of
> chris_hillman@...> [chris_hillman@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color
>
>
>
>
>
> What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
> Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
> maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".
>
> Thanks, Paul Hillman
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

naptownprr
 

But you can't be sure that an artist's rendering is the "real"color.

Jim


Quoting Paul Hillman <chris_hillman@msn.com>:

The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.

I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or
brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the
original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)
I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different
hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral
Brown" color. (I'd assume.)

The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on
the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a
reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.

Paul Hillman



----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce F. Smith<mailto:smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color




Paul,


What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model? These matter!


Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
[STMFC@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of
chris_hillman@msn.com<mailto:chris_hillman@msn.com>
[chris_hillman@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com<mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color





What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some
Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown,
maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman







Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

Thanks Bruce, Sounds like you've got these Pennsy colors down to a deep perfection.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

Paul,

Thanks.  For 1953, the base color could be either the 1940s FCC or 1950s FCC, depending on when the cabin car was repainted completely.  The Walthers base color on this car is pretty close to the 1950's color.  The 1940's color would be more orange.  There are several recipes for these colors on Jerry Britton's site, Keystone Crossings (under Modeling - General). If you can get it, PolyScale Zinc Chromate is a good color to work with.  It will be slightly more red/orange than the Walthers color and will help fade the Walthers color and lettering. I use 50% zinc chromate, 50% special oxide red for my plastic cabins and a mix of 3 to 4 parts Scalecoat Illinois Central Orange to 1 part Oxide Red on my brass cabins for that 1940s color.

Here's hoping Walthers brings the N6B back and uses the center cupola body with the offset cupola roof to fix that annoying window issue.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Bruce Smith
 

Paul,

Thanks.  For 1953, the base color could be either the 1940s FCC or 1950s FCC, depending on when the cabin car was repainted completely.  The Walthers base color on this car is pretty close to the 1950's color.  The 1940's color would be more orange.  There are several recipes for these colors on Jerry Britton's site, Keystone Crossings (under Modeling - General). If you can get it, PolyScale Zinc Chromate is a good color to work with.  It will be slightly more red/orange than the Walthers color and will help fade the Walthers color and lettering. I use 50% zinc chromate, 50% special oxide red for my plastic cabins and a mix of 3 to 4 parts Scalecoat Illinois Central Orange to 1 part Oxide Red on my brass cabins for that 1940s color.

Here's hoping Walthers brings the N6B back and uses the center cupola body with the offset cupola roof to fix that annoying window issue.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of Paul Hillman [chris_hillman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 4:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color



The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
 
I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)  I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
 
The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
 
Paul Hillman


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Dave,
 
Sorry it wasn't the case. My first thought was that I was missing something, so I immediately had to get up and look. :-) It sure would have made constructing passenger car rosters a bit easier for the early 1940s. I'll have to remember that some railroads do have passenger listings that late.
 
Eric
 
 

Eric,

I did not look at the passenger equipment closely in the past, but it appears to have passenger equipment listings for only a few of the railroads. I only spot checked the NMRA reprint, and while many of the big northeastern roads (my area of interest) have passenger equipment listings, none of the major western railroads I checked have passenger equipment lists. Only mid-west road I spotted with passenger equipment listed was CMStP&P (Milwaukee road.)
For the RR's with listings, the Passenger equipment list is just after each RR's Freight equipment.

Bruce Smith provided me with the PRR's passenger equipment list from the passenger ORER from later in the war and it has more detail than the January '43 listing - more notes, number of seats, and mileage and per diem rates. Curious if the rates appeared because the ODT was just grabbing empty passenger cars and routing them far from home roads.

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment.

Dave Evans



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

My 1-43 ORER (original) does not appear to include passenger cars, at least for most of the listings. I thought these were elimnated in about 1941..


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Depends on the railroad and the era. When listed, cars in MW service are usually indicated as such and usually put in their own section. LNE was pretty thorough in listing their cars in the ORER, but then it wasn't a large roster. Cabooses were often listed with freight cars even though they don't carry freight. Dual service cars like Hart convertible ballast cars often made it into the freight section. The problem is, there's no hard line to be drawn in some cases, so the railroads used their individual logic. MW cars are more likely to be shown before the mid 1930s.
 
Eric N.
 
 

 

Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

Eric,

I did not look at the passenger equipment closely in the past, but it appears to have passenger equipment listings for only a few of the railroads. I only spot checked the NMRA reprint, and while many of the big northeastern roads (my area of interest) have passenger equipment listings, none of the major western railroads I checked have passenger equipment lists. Only mid-west road I spotted with passenger equipment listed was CMStP&P (Milwaukee road.)
For the RR's with listings, the Passenger equipment list is just after each RR's Freight equipment.

Bruce Smith provided me with the PRR's passenger equipment list from the passenger ORER from later in the war and it has more detail than the January '43 listing - more notes, number of seats, and mileage and per diem rates. Curious if the rates appeared because the ODT was just grabbing empty passenger cars and routing them far from home roads.

The NMRA introduction suggests that all of the passenger equipment was listed in the Jan '43 edition, but that does not appear to be the case. The NMRA intro states that by March 1943 the passenger equipment was being listed in a separate ORER register of passenger equipment.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <eaneubauer@...> wrote :

My 1-43 ORER (original) does not appear to include passenger cars, at least for most of the listings. I thought these were elimnated in about 1941..


Re: Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

Paul Hillman
 

The cars have a black roof and the repack date is 1953. I model 1950.
 
I'm curious about the original base-color hue, whether reddish or brownish. Weathering produces all kinds of different shades of the original color depending upon the length of time. (As we all know.)  I have a photo of 6 ATSF cabooses in a line and there's 6 different hues of fading, but they're al based on ATSF's (I believe) "Mineral Brown" color. (I'd assume.)
 
The latest issue of "Historic Rail" has a neat painting of the PRR on the cover, and the caboose, and hoppers, seem to be faded to a reddish-brown color. It's said to depict the PRR in 1948.
 
Paul Hillman
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 3:07 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color

 

Paul,

What scheme are the cabin cars and what year do you model?  These matter!

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...] on behalf of chris_hillman@... [chris_hillman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Pennsy N6B Wood Caboose color



What color were the Pennsy N6B Wood Cabooses painted? I have some Walthers N6B's and need to weather them. They're a redish-dark brown, maybe Tuscan red? Just want to get a weathered-color more "correct".

Thanks, Paul Hillman




Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

devansprr
 

Dennis,

You are correct on the banner photo - I have the hi-res .tiff file from LOC and the heralds are pretty clear at that resolution.

There may be one or two more in another Delano photo taken to the right of the banner photo, but the angles are more oblique and length harder to verify, and their heralds are not discernible. Blasted weathering - someone over did it... ;-)

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <destorzek@...> wrote :




---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.

I donno... there are at least two in the Jack Delano photo used on the list web page; third track back, third car from left appears to be a NC&StL single sheathed car, and seventh track back, third car from the right is some sort of DS car, maybe L&N. Neither car is a vent.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Jim Betz
 

Hi,

Someone mentioned that these cars might have been
converted to MOW service.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that MOW service
equipment is and always was specifically excluded from
the ORER. I've always considered the ORER as "a list of
cars that might show up in interchange service". True???

So if a car is listed in an ORER for a particular year -
that car is still in interchange service. It might be on
home rails and in some kind of 'captive' service but
it is 'officially' possible that it can/might be used in
interchange.
Cars that drop off of the ORER may be in MOW or
they might be scrapped/waiting to be scrapped.
- Jim


Re: Less than 40-foot box car data from 1943 ORER

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

For WWII, there is still the issue of just how many of the Canadian cars reached how far south into the US. Clearly Ike has spotted one very far south, but in the few WWII yard photos I have found, I do not recall seeing a sub 40 foot Canadian car, although I am not skilled enough to spot them by car body - I need to see the herald or reporting marks.

I donno... there are at least two in the Jack Delano photo used on the list web page; third track back, third car from left appears to be a NC&StL single sheathed car, and seventh track back, third car from the right is some sort of DS car, maybe L&N. Neither car is a vent.

Dennis Storzek

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