Date   

Re: X29 ends - Westerfield

Peter Weiglin
 

Al Westerfield is generous in giving credit to those folks who helped him, even if that help started out as the picking of nits.  We're all grateful for those nit-pickers, perhaps not immediately, but eventually.

But it also should be pointed out that Al deserves much credit for LISTENING to, and making improvements based upon, those helpful communications.  He could have responded quite differently, e.g., "What difference does that make?  Only the nuts care about that."

Thank you, Al.

We can also wish and hope that the lesson is not lost on other manufacturers.

Peter Weiglin


Re: Painting HO Scale Brass

 

Thanks for the additional feedback on this topic - to all who participated. 

And yes, I meant "baking"...

Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On Jun 7, 2014, at 1:38 AM, "tgregmrtn@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Can I take a minute and try to put this all in some sort of context?
 
First Matt asked:
 
"Inexperience question here.

My understanding regarding backing (baking?) is that it is intended to drive off the volatiles in the freshly applied paint. Is this correct?"
 
Matt, yes it accelerates drying process by evaporation of the chemical drying agents in the paint, Jerry Glow could explain it better as he is a former auto body repairman. The same baking techniques are used to do the same to prototype freight equipment, it is the application that differs.  
 
"Also, I believe I read somewhere that letting a freshly painted model sit for several days (or  longer) would accomplish the same thing - only (obviously) slower...

Good thread.

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio"
 
That could be true but the heating process makes the enamel dry harder quicker. As I have said I don't bake my brass in the oven but I do in natural sunlight under supervision or under a 60 watt bulb perhaps overnight  in winter. If I want to bake solvent based enamels on plastic I dry them in natural sunlight with extra supervision as the combination of the solvents and the heat can soften plastic  
The Peter adds:
 
 
" I had been lead to believe that baking paint like Scalecoat, would actually improve the adhesion of the paint to brass."
 
Not really, adhesion would improve if you do as Schuyler and Mike mentions by lightly etching the surface chemically or with "grit blasting"

"I know from experience that baked on lacquer and enamel paint resists scratching better.

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com"
 
True" enamel" by it's nature/name is expected to be harder, the same with lacquer-based enamel, which would leave one to believe it would resist scratching better.  
 
Bruce writes:
 
"Matt,

Baking is only appropriate for enamel based paint."
 
Wait! I have an issue with this statement and it follows along with the use of the term, "Dulux Gold", Dulux is a brand not a specific color and enamel is referenced to a hardened surface paint not to a "base" of a paint. There are lacquer, alkyd resin, or poly-vinyl acrylic or latex vehicle based enamel paints...  
 
 
"There is a school of thought that says that it causes the paint to "cure" or polymerize, which may well be true. Never ever bake plastic or any metal that might melt (like some weights) and do not bake acrylic paints.  Baking an enamel paint job will allow you to move on to the next application more rapidly.

Regards

Bruce"
 
I am not sure why you wouldn't bake an acrylic/latex or poly vinyl acrylic paint as it would help the surface dry harder and as the late owner (his name escapes me Greg K??? help me out here Dennis) of ACUFLEX paint recommended you do exactly that because he reminded me that, "acrylics are like Spandex and shrink to fit..." He was right his paint went on what seems to be "goby" and once the surface was heated it shrunk incredibly tight to the surface. Wonderful stuff.
 
Schuyler replies: 
 
"Pierre is correct. When I have baked Scalecoat 1, the resulting finish is harder, glossier, and more resistant to scratching than any other paint I've used. Allowing paint to dry "until the odor is gone" works OK, but it will not give you the same durability of finish. It will scratch more easily and wear on grabs and other wear points."
 
Schuyler reinforces the point that baking results in a harder, glossier and more scratch resistant finish and testifies that Scalecoat 1 is the "one". No Contest here, I don't want to start a "my doges better than your dog"  thread,
 
The point is that heating the paint to a given temperature and holding it there for a given period of time does 1.) gas off the vehicle quicker, 2) promoting faster drying, 3) and enameling the surface faster. In the case of acrylic paints it "sucks" the paint tighter to the surface.  An equally hard surface can be achieved in time if allowed to simply air dry.
 
"Bruce offers "polymerize." Maybe. I don't know if that's what it does or not. But whatever it does, it works.

Schuyler"
 
Greg Martin
 



 


Re: X29 ends - PMM

O Fenton Wells
 

Both without patch panels but they also had the 7003 ARA body with short frame and B&O ladders, 7005 (patch and plate ends), 7006 REA patch with plate ends and 7007 REA with dreadnaught ends.
Fenton Wells


On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Fenton Wells wrote:
"Gentlemen, FYI , I just received a letter from Red Caboose and the RC-7001 ' 28 body, X-29 with dreadnaught ends and their RC-7002 X-29 '24 body with plate ends are 'in stock'"

First, NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES!

Second, with or without patch panels?

Ben Hom




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: X29 ends - PMM

Benjamin Hom
 

Fenton Wells wrote:
"Gentlemen, FYI , I just received a letter from Red Caboose and the RC-7001 ' 28 body, X-29 with dreadnaught ends and their RC-7002 X-29 '24 body with plate ends are 'in stock'"


First, NO DASHES IN PRR CAR CLASSES!

Second, with or without patch panels?


Ben Hom


Re: X29 ends - PMM

O Fenton Wells
 

Gentlemen, FYI , I just received a letter from Red Caboose and the RC-7001 ' 28 body, X-29 with dreadnaught ends and their RC-7002 X-29 '24 body with plate ends are "in stock"
Fenton Wells


On Sat, Jun 7, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Jeff Aley wrote:
"I find this surprising, as the cars currently in production by Intermountain (RTR) do not appear to have patch panels (based on photos on their website).  But perhaps these were molded long ago, and are only now being assembled and painted."

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/redcaboose/redcabooseho.html
The tooling change information was based on a posting on either STMFC, PRR-Modeling, or the B&O list when the patch panel models first came out.  If this is not the case, I'm happy to be wrong!

I'm a bit disappointed with what's being offered, though, especially if you're going to shell out $34.95 MSRP.  They're using tooling without patch panels for these models, which limits their utility to transition-era modelers, as most cars needed to have side sill repairs by the 1950s.  They continue to exhibit the incorrect AB brake arrangement noted in an earlier post.  The trucks shown (Accurail "Bettendorf") are incorrect for the PRR cars, which is inexplicable as the original Red Caboose models had the correct trucks. Finally, I'd check my research before buying - there's no indication that Intermountain matched the right bodies (1924 PRR, 1928 PRR, ARA) to the roads offered; some of these prototypes had different roofs (CNJ, MEC green, LNE black); Duryea cushion underframes (B&O), and two are outright bogus (SAL, N&W).  Caevat emptor.

Ben Hom 




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Re: X29 ends - PMM

Benjamin Hom
 

Jeff Aley wrote:
"I find this surprising, as the cars currently in production by Intermountain (RTR) do not appear to have patch panels (based on photos on their website).  But perhaps these were molded long ago, and are only now being assembled and painted."

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib/redcaboose/redcabooseho.html
The tooling change information was based on a posting on either STMFC, PRR-Modeling, or the B&O list when the patch panel models first came out.  If this is not the case, I'm happy to be wrong!

I'm a bit disappointed with what's being offered, though, especially if you're going to shell out $34.95 MSRP.  They're using tooling without patch panels for these models, which limits their utility to transition-era modelers, as most cars needed to have side sill repairs by the 1950s.  They continue to exhibit the incorrect AB brake arrangement noted in an earlier post.  The trucks shown (Accurail "Bettendorf") are incorrect for the PRR cars, which is inexplicable as the original Red Caboose models had the correct trucks. Finally, I'd check my research before buying - there's no indication that Intermountain matched the right bodies (1924 PRR, 1928 PRR, ARA) to the roads offered; some of these prototypes had different roofs (CNJ, MEC green, LNE black); Duryea cushion underframes (B&O), and two are outright bogus (SAL, N&W).  Caevat emptor.


Ben Hom


Re: Development of data sources an the historical record

Bill Welch
 

"One of the surprises that came from helping Al (and Martin) was that they invariably used the information and said thank you with a free kit. Two cases I remember w/Al that seemed very small on my part was a photo of a Clinchfield (CC&O) USRA SS 50-ton car (very rare before Col. McCoid) and a Southern SU painted for Lancaster & Chester.

A bigger deal was some wrestling we did when I informed him there were two versions of the PRR R7--two different builders I think--involving the ladders and details around the ends of the lower sills. A deluge of photos was followed by revised parts and all was good with the universe, such was/is Al's commitment to getting it right.

Bill Welch


Re: X29 ends - PMM

Aley, Jeff A
 

I find this surprising, as the cars currently in production by Intermountain (RTR) do not appear to have patch panels (based on photos on their website).  But perhaps these were molded long ago, and are only now being assembled and painted.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 8:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] X29 ends - PMM

 

 

Gene Green asked:
"Were the original Red Caboose X29 dies altered to add the patch panels?"
Yes.

"Will the original Red Caboose X29s without patch panels ever be available again?"
Barring new tooling, probably not, but there are still plenty of the older models on the market.

Ben Hom


Re: X29 ends - PMM

Benjamin Hom
 

Gene Green asked:
"Were the original Red Caboose X29 dies altered to add the patch panels?"
Yes.


"Will the original Red Caboose X29s without patch panels ever be available again?"
Barring new tooling, probably not, but there are still plenty of the older models on the market.



Ben Hom


Tahoe MW freight Trucks less wheels

Andy Carlson
 




Hello-
I have good quantities of all 14 of the Tahoe Model Works trucks. All of these are offered LESS wheel sets. Suitable wheels are: NWSL; Proto 2000; Kadee; Rebox; Intermountain and others.

#001 Dalman 2-level w/o Lateral Motion device
#002 Dalman 2-level with Lateral Motion device
#003 40-50 ton Arch Bar 5'6" wheelbase
#004 Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose
#005 Barber-Bettendorf swing Motion Caboose truck
#006 Buckeye cast steel truck w/ spring plank
#007 Double truss cast steel spring-plankless
#008 Coil-Elliptic spring cast steel truck
#009 Barber Lateral Motion
#010 ASF 70-ton A3 ride control
#011 Short Wheelbase (5'0") old-time Arch Ba
r#012 USRA Andrews#013 Barber S2 w/ spring plank
#014 Scullin 40-ton w/ spring plank

All are priced at $4.50/pair, less wheel sets. Shipping of $2.85 for one or more pairs by 1st class USPS. I accept checks and money orders. For a small fee, I can accept PayPal.

For questions and orders, please contact me off-line @
Thanks, -Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: Development of data sources an the historical record

 

I became a prototype modeler only after starting my business.  I relied on model railroad plans to determine which prototypes to choose.  I then scoured a major library for ORERs, Cycs and RAGs for data to support them.  However, about 2 months after issuing the XL box car I received a phone call from the late John Stewart.  He asked me how I could issue such a nice model but with such lousy lettering.   He said he had all the lettering diagrams and would be happy to send them to me.  Several weeks later I received about 25 blueprints of lettering and stencil diagrams for many PRR cars of the early 1900s.  He also sent general arrangements for many of them including the XL.  Hell, I didn’t even know this stuff existed. Not only did I revise the lettering but the model as well.  Shortly thereafter I received a letter from Richard Hendrickson with both praise and complaint.  (The complaint was wrong – he failed to read the instructions completely.)  As you would expect Richard offered to help me any time.   I was discovering that there were sources out there who knew much more than I.  Modelers started contacting me with advice and information.  By the time I issued my sixth kit I was a prototype modeler.  (I subsequently revised all of the previous kits to bring them up to prototype standards.)  Then Byron Rose contacted me with a complaint on a minor detail.  Sound familiar?  This began a long association which raised my skill level immeasurably.  Byron demanded perfection.  He reviewed all the kits before issue which is why the assembly instructions were so complete.  Rarely if ever did he tell me the kits were good.  I remember my favorite phrase to him was, “Byron, perfection is the enemy of excellence.”  I learned that there were always guys who knew more than I about a particular car or railroad.  I now knew who to contact for help and almost everyone in the community was more than willing to open their files for me.  Upon retirement I counted up all the acknowledgements in the kits and discovered that over 200 modelers and historians had assisted me. – Al Westerfield
 


Re: X29 ends - PMM

genegreen1942@...
 

Were the original Red Caboose X29 dies altered to add the patch panels?
Will the original Red Caboose X29s without patch panels ever be available again?
Gene Green


Did I Ruin It? * * U P D A T E * *

Mark.Rossiter@...
 

Group: I'm happy to report that I did as many of you suggested and I blasted the box car in question with a fresh coat of Dullcoat and the white coating disappeared!  Thanks to all who responded!  It certainly was a lesson learned.

 

Mark Rossiter


Re: Painting HO Scale Brass

Greg Martin
 

Can I take a minute and try to put this all in some sort of context?
 
First Matt asked:
 
"Inexperience question here.

My understanding regarding backing (baking?) is that it is intended to drive off the volatiles in the freshly applied paint. Is this correct?"
 
Matt, yes it accelerates drying process by evaporation of the chemical drying agents in the paint, Jerry Glow could explain it better as he is a former auto body repairman. The same baking techniques are used to do the same to prototype freight equipment, it is the application that differs.  
 
"Also, I believe I read somewhere that letting a freshly painted model sit for several days (or  longer) would accomplish the same thing - only (obviously) slower...

Good thread.

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio"
 
That could be true but the heating process makes the enamel dry harder quicker. As I have said I don't bake my brass in the oven but I do in natural sunlight under supervision or under a 60 watt bulb perhaps overnight  in winter. If I want to bake solvent based enamels on plastic I dry them in natural sunlight with extra supervision as the combination of the solvents and the heat can soften plastic  
The Peter adds:
 
 
" I had been lead to believe that baking paint like Scalecoat, would actually improve the adhesion of the paint to brass."
 
Not really, adhesion would improve if you do as Schuyler and Mike mentions by lightly etching the surface chemically or with "grit blasting"

"I know from experience that baked on lacquer and enamel paint resists scratching better.

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com"
 
True" enamel" by it's nature/name is expected to be harder, the same with lacquer-based enamel, which would leave one to believe it would resist scratching better.  
 
Bruce writes:
 
"Matt,

Baking is only appropriate for enamel based paint."
 
Wait! I have an issue with this statement and it follows along with the use of the term, "Dulux Gold", Dulux is a brand not a specific color and enamel is referenced to a hardened surface paint not to a "base" of a paint. There are lacquer, alkyd resin, or poly-vinyl acrylic or latex vehicle based enamel paints...  
 
 
"There is a school of thought that says that it causes the paint to "cure" or polymerize, which may well be true. Never ever bake plastic or any metal that might melt (like some weights) and do not bake acrylic paints.  Baking an enamel paint job will allow you to move on to the next application more rapidly.

Regards

Bruce"
 
I am not sure why you wouldn't bake an acrylic/latex or poly vinyl acrylic paint as it would help the surface dry harder and as the late owner (his name escapes me Greg K??? help me out here Dennis) of ACUFLEX paint recommended you do exactly that because he reminded me that, "acrylics are like Spandex and shrink to fit..." He was right his paint went on what seems to be "goby" and once the surface was heated it shrunk incredibly tight to the surface. Wonderful stuff.
 
Schuyler replies: 
 
"Pierre is correct. When I have baked Scalecoat 1, the resulting finish is harder, glossier, and more resistant to scratching than any other paint I've used. Allowing paint to dry "until the odor is gone" works OK, but it will not give you the same durability of finish. It will scratch more easily and wear on grabs and other wear points."
 
Schuyler reinforces the point that baking results in a harder, glossier and more scratch resistant finish and testifies that Scalecoat 1 is the "one". No Contest here, I don't want to start a "my doges better than your dog"  thread,
 
The point is that heating the paint to a given temperature and holding it there for a given period of time does 1.) gas off the vehicle quicker, 2) promoting faster drying, 3) and enameling the surface faster. In the case of acrylic paints it "sucks" the paint tighter to the surface.  An equally hard surface can be achieved in time if allowed to simply air dry.
 
"Bruce offers "polymerize." Maybe. I don't know if that's what it does or not. But whatever it does, it works.

Schuyler"
 
Greg Martin
 



 


Re: Painting HO Scale Brass

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Pierre is correct. When I have baked Scalecoat 1, the resulting finish is
harder, glossier, and more resistant to scratching than any other paint I've
used. Allowing paint to dry "until the odor is gone" works OK, but it will
not give you the same durability of finish. It will scratch more easily and
wear on grabs and other wear points.



Bruce offers "polymerize." Maybe. I don't know if that's what it does or
not. But whatever it does, it works.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 2:45 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Painting HO Scale Brass





I had been lead to believe that baking paint like Scalecoat, would actually
improve the adhesion of the paint to brass.
I know from experience that baked on lacquer and enamel paint resists
scratching better.



Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 6/6/2014 2:40 PM, 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@auburn.edu [STMFC] wrote:



Matt,



Baking is only appropriate for enamel based paint. There is a school of
thought that says that it causes the paint to "cure" or polymerize, which
may well be true. Never ever bake plastic or any metal that might melt
(like some weights) and do not bake acrylic paints. Baking an enamel paint
job will allow you to move on to the next application more rapidly.



Regards

Bruce



Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
<https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/%7Esmithbf/>



"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jun 6, 2014, at 12:36 PM, Matt Goodman goodman312@yahoo.co.uk [STMFC]
wrote:







Inexperience question here.



My understanding regarding backing is that it is intended to drive off the
volatiles in the freshly applied paint. Is this correct? Also, I believe I
read somewhere that letting a freshly painted model sit for several days (or
longer) would accomplish the same thing - only (obviously) slower...



Good thread.

Matt Goodman

Columbus, Ohio



Sent from my mobile


On May 27, 2014, at 10:02 PM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@auburn.edu [STMFC]"
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Paul,



Skip the model "primer" because most of them are just plain paint. For dark
colors, I paint with a Model Master flat black spray bomb and then with
whatever I want to over that. For colors that I don't want a black layer
under, I simply apply Scalecoat 1. I don't bake - there is no need and too
much risk for my taste.



Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


Re: Know what railroad this is

George Courtney
 

Well, it could Central Railroad of Louisiana, a paper company of the Jersey Central?  Tongue in cheek of course.

George Courtney


Re: Influences

proto48er
 

   My greatest influence directing me toward faithful modeling of the prototype freight car occurred when I made (3) "O" scale brass mill gons back in 1970 to plans from a model magazine.  I later learned that the side "breaks" on the plans were in the wrong place.  I started photographing and measuring prototype freight cars immediately thereafter!  I sold two of the cars, but have kept the third one in plain view at my office to remind me to keep measuring!

  The next step came when I met a co-worker in 1974 - Cyril Durrenberger.  He had worked in the same building for about 1-1/2 years before I met him - guys kept telling me that another RR nut was around!  He introduced me to ORER's and freight car diagram books. Cyril has authored a very large number of prototype-related articles in various model magazines of the time, starting with the Prototype Modeler magazines (Bob Longo).  At that time, several RR historical societies were being created also.  Cyril and I purchased a number of ORER's from Roundhouse III in New York - that really helped.

  Then Cyril and I visited the photograph collection of AC&F in St Charles, Mo. to copy freight car photos.  We spent 5 days there - I copied 3,700 freight car photos and only got to 1916 chronologically!  On the last day, we met one Ed Hawkins and his two friends, Mr. Wider and Mr. Long - it was apparently their first trip to AC&F!

A.T. Kott


Re: CNJ Box Car Red?

Rich C
 

Ken, Tru Color Paint has TCP-210 CNJ Freight Car Red 1937 through the 60's.


  Rich Christie


On Friday, June 6, 2014 2:47 PM, "ed_mines@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
How about an update on the RPC freight car color chart using the new fangled paints now available?
 
Ed Mines



Re: Know what railroad this is

william darnaby
 

This would be a good number for CIL 385 a welded side pre-PS-1 (1947) Monon
box from the series 1-500 from Pullman.



Bill Darnaby



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 3:33 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Know what railroad this is








While going thought some Dispatcher reports in 1958 on the Northern Pacific.
I found this car listed with a Hot Box set out report [ CJL 385] I would
like to know which railroad this might be from and the car type. I do not
know if this is a good reporting mark or not as it was done in pencil and
hard to read. Have looked in the Jan 1958 Official Railway Equipment
Register and could not find it. Any information on this car would be most
helpful.
Thank You
Gary










---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com


Re: Know what railroad this is

 

Could it be >CIL<; which would be the Monon?


Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, June 6, 2014 at 3:32 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Know what railroad this is







While going thought some Dispatcher reports in 1958 on the Northern Pacific.
I found this car listed with a Hot Box set out report [ CJL 385] I would
like to know which railroad this might be from and the car type. I do not
know if this is a good reporting mark or not as it was done in pencil and
hard to read. Have looked in the Jan 1958 Official Railway Equipment
Register and could not find it. Any information on this car would be most
helpful.
Thank You
Gary









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

67721 - 67740 of 192836