Date   

Re: Storage of ACC

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Don,

I really wouldn't want to eat food that has been contaminated with this stuff. It can't be good for people and other living things, and certainly could make food taste icky.

So how much outgassing can occur? In one of my police classes, a detective demonstrated raising finger prints. He put a target object and a tube of common super glue into bag that probably held about two quarts, then broke the tube and quickly sealed the bag. The ACC fogged pretty much the whole interior of the bag in a couple of minutes.

I would expect that if you put the cap back on a tube or ampule of ACC and stuck it in a refrigerator, there wouldn't be much to worry about. Any leakage would self-seal pretty quickly. But accidents can happen (and young children can be curious), so I think a jar is a pretty good idea, and am going to put mine in a jar as soon as we get an empty.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 6/21/14 10:23 AM, riverman_vt@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Guess I missed something in this, Garth.  what is the inherent danger in ACC outgassing in the refrigerator?

I have stored mine on a shelf in the refrigerator for some years but perhaps shold not be doing that. But with

such small containers of ACC can it really be a serious health problem? We have heard much on the benefits of keeping it cool over the years but I've heard little or nothing on problems from keeping it in the "fridge".

 

Thanks for sharing, Don Valentine



Good Book on Gon. from the 50's

Gary Wildung
 

Look for a book or  photo's on gon's in the 50"s .Namely CB&Q 82200 , NYC 705000, Soo 7501, IBH 6000 etc. series car. I have a list of about 10 different railroad to try and find. Trying to match car numbers with photo's so I can find models of these car to add to my 1958 car fleet. Car are off a dispatcher sheet's from 58 hot box report. Thanks for any help on where to look for this.
Gary


Re: Storage of ACC

riverman_vt@...
 

Guess I missed something in this, Garth.  what is the inherent danger in ACC outgassing in the refrigerator?

I have stored mine on a shelf in the refrigerator for some years but perhaps shold not be doing that. But with

such small containers of ACC can it really be a serious health problem? We have heard much on the benefits of keeping it cool over the years but I've heard little or nothing on problems from keeping it in the "fridge".

 

Thanks for sharing, Don Valentine


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

Craig Zeni
 

Mark/Don, you'd probably be surprised at the way juices are processed, stored and shipped. Logic from those outside the industry doesn't really apply. For a sense of scale, the Trop plant at Bradenton FL has the capacity to store about 70 million gallons of single strength (Not From Concentrate) juice; Citrosuco at Lake Wales nearly 20 million gallons. It's stored cold in tanks in enormous refrigerated buildings. I used to know the Bradenton's capacity for concentrate but can't recall right now...somewhere around a million gallons.

When juice concentrates are reconstituted, it is not allowed to soften - temperature rise is not good for it and would allow molds and other nasties to grow in it. The way it's reconstituted is that the frozen concentrate is dumped into a stainless steel 'chopper tank'. It's typically a long flattish tank with chopper blades in it that macerate into small frozen chunks and mixed with some water. Sugars can be added at that point...it's then pumped over thru a pasteurized (can be a plate/frame type or a tube style...depends on the plant) which is where it is melted as a side benefit from the pasteurization temperatures and into the mix tank where it's finally mixed with purified ambient water. Final mixing occurs there in that tank. I have a couple of customers in Florida that do precisely this (they make juice blends from pineapple, mango, orange and many other concentrates), and have done it this way for decades. It's a proven, reliable and inexpensive technology.

Orange juice concentrate business has dramatically shrunken since the 1960s. NFC rules the retail business now. Much of the concentrate that is made is not as viscous as what Bruce (and I and others) remember from our childhood so that it can be more easily pumped. This product is shipped in bulk insulated road tankers to diaries (yes, dairies) that reconstitute it into the private label brands you see in grocery and convenience stores. Concentrate now also comes up from Brazil in tanker vessels to Tampa and Wilmington DE for unloading and processing by these dairies and for blending with Florida juice as Florida's groves can no longer supply enough juice to meet demand. However, Florida's juice is widely regarded as the best in the world and is actually exported to Europe and Japan...go figure.

Craig Zeni
Cary NC

On Jun 21, 2014, at 4:51 AM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:

1a. Re: Tropicana in the 1950s
Posted by: "Bruce F. Smith" smithbf@auburn.edu smithbf36832
Date: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:08 pm ((PDT))

Mark,

Dang, maybe I'm getting old, but when I was growing up in upstate NY, we got our orange juice in a cardboard tube with metal ends, frozen solid, at the grocery store. Thus, the frozen concentrate being shipped was not necessarily for repackaging, but for direct sales to consumers. As with all frozen food, it has to remain frozen to maintain quality. And even if it was being repackaged, temperature excursions on a food product such as this both can damage the nutritional quality of the food (the big sell for the frozen food industry, which mushroomed post WWII, as did the need for frozen food reefers) and above freezing there is the chance for bacterial and or fungal growth. Why don't you see that in today's "fresh" OJ? Ahem, well, try fresh squeezing some OJ and leave it out <G>. The steam era's OJ was not packaged with the preservatives that today's foods are and thus more care was needed to preserve the food from spoilage.


Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On Jun 20, 2014, at 2:43 PM, caboose9792@aol.com<mailto:caboose9792@aol.com> [STMFC] wrote:



I agree Don,
There is no reason, if anything it defy's reason. Even if the OJ departs frozen it would have to be heated on arrival. Letting the load self cool for the 2-5 days in transit and arrive as a slushy liquid ready to be diluted and bottled.


Re: Storage of ACC

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tom,

I've never stored my ACC in the freezer, but I expect there would be minimal outgassing there at worst. Also, with the cap on I've never had a problem I noticed with the stuff in just in the refrigerator in an uncovered plastic cup. We don't generally keep food in this refrigerator, it being in the basement (we mainly just use the freezer compartment for food) and contamination is not an issue. If this were the main refrigerator, I would put the ACC in a jar with a lid, and this is probably good practice in all cases. This stuff can outgas something fierce at warmer temperatures. That's why the police use ACC to raise fingerprints on evidence.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 6/20/14 7:16 PM, Thomas Olsen tmolsen@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

In reply to Garth's comment that ACC could outgas in the refrigerator.
I have been storing my bottles of Jet ACC in the freezer for many
years and never realized that it could possibly do this. What do you
say if it has been stored in the freezer?

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware



New Steam Era Decals

hubert mask
 

Pleased to announce that I have added two new steam era decals. 

87-269    B&O 2 bay hopper N-17 and N-26.  Decal set does one of each.

87-270     Milwaukee Road Automobile 50 ft Double Door car.  For out side braced cars. Set does two cars. Picture not available.

Please view my listing of more varieties of decals.

Also still available are a few kits made by Chad Boas,  53ft Mt. Vernon build flat cars Southern Railway. 

Please visit my web site:

 maskislanddecals.com

Thank you!

Hubert Mask


Re: NYC 710648

John Barry
 

Thanks Seth,

Interesting how different roads did things differently, lots vs class, Dashes in classes, or not.  So much to learn about so many things.  That sounds like a reasonably straight forward kit bash to achieve the 14 panels from the 15 panel car.  The LCM with the removed deck house and ramp are not so straight forward, at least in HO.  Very easy and inexpensive in 1/72.
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: "lakinsa@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 4:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC 710648

 

>Can any of you NYC guys help me with some modeling info for the NYC 710648?  
 
John, There is not model of the NYC lot 702-G gondolas. If you want to truly recreate the model, I would start with the Proto 2000 52'6" Greenville gondola, sand off the ribs and start with styrene strips archer rivet decals for new ribs. The overall dimensions are fairly close. I would have to dig one of my kits out, but I believe that the kits came with two styles of ends, one of which matches the 702-G end. Decals, here again there is not a set that I know of that are a exact match, but could be pieced together from Komar HO-325 NYC War Emergency Gons (lot 723-G) or CDS 537 NYC 52' Gon (lot 791-G) dry transfers.
 
As for class designations, there was none on the NYC, only lot numbers.
 
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
NYCSHS Modeler's Committee Member
 



Re: Mechanical refrigeration

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Sorry, that should have been the 1907-1908 edition – volume 34

 

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2014 1:34 p.m.
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Mechanical refrigeration

 





If you want an early viewpoint on the subject, there’s an article in the 1906-1907 Engineering Magazine entitled “Mechanical refrigeration adapted to railway transportation” at
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b2859607#view=1up;seq=509

 

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ



Mechanical refrigeration

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 


If you want an early viewpoint on the subject, there’s an article in the 1906-1907 Engineering Magazine entitled “Mechanical refrigeration adapted to railway transportation” at
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b2859607#view=1up;seq=509

 

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ


Re: [CAJON] Evolution of the Richmond Sand House

ottokroutil
 

John,
your blog is very enjoyable, thank you!
I was lucky enough, after some pestering, to obtain a Mountaneer kit of
the San Bdno sand house, in N scale no less, and look forward to
building it. Even have a spot for it on my layout...
Regards, Otto K.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barry northbaylines@att.net [CAJON] <CAJON@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>; LDSIG <ldsig@yahoogroups.com>; OPSIG
<Ry-ops-industrialSIG@yahoogroups.com>; SANTAFE Discussion List
<SANTAFE@listserv.unl.edu>; cajon <cajon@yahoogroups.com>; atsf
<atsf@yahoogroups.com>; santafeRR <santafeRR@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 20, 2014 12:24 pm
Subject: [CAJON] Evolution of the Richmond Sand House

 
Featured in a previous post with SP gons in ATSF sand service, I've
documented the history and evolution of the Richmond CA Sand House
through three incarnations during the steam era.  It is a summation of
information from disparate sources from the CA state archives to
Kachina Press.  Enjoy!



http://northbaylines.blogspot.com/2014/06/evolution-of-richmond-sand-house.html

 
John Barry

ATSF North Bay LinesGolden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696

3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224Cameron Park, CA 95682


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

Charles Peck
 

It was not all that long ago that out of season produce was an expensive luxury.  Comparing milk

to orange juice seems to skip over the fact that cows make milk all year round.  Fresh Florida juice

oranges are very seasonal.  Do you remember canned orange juice?  I remember it being pretty

bad stuff compared to fresh squeezed. These improvements in storage and shipping of orange

juice made "almost" fresh tasting juice available all year round.  That was a big step in marketing.

Today we take it for granted that almost everything is in our stores whenever we want it.

As a boy I don't remember there being any frozen food in the local market. Frozen juice concentrate

and Birdseye vegetables seems to have appeared about late 40s and early 50s.  At least in my

recollection.  There were changes going on in the foods industry and a demand for fresher tasting

products was one of the big drivers.  I think Tropicana got a step ahead and profited nicely from

grabbing a big market share, largely from refrigeration technology.

Chuck Peck


Re: NYC 710648

Seth Lakin
 


>Can any of you NYC guys help me with some modeling info for the NYC 710648?  
 
John, There is not model of the NYC lot 702-G gondolas. If you want to truly recreate the model, I would start with the Proto 2000 52'6" Greenville gondola, sand off the ribs and start with styrene strips archer rivet decals for new ribs. The overall dimensions are fairly close. I would have to dig one of my kits out, but I believe that the kits came with two styles of ends, one of which matches the 702-G end. Decals, here again there is not a set that I know of that are a exact match, but could be pieced together from Komar HO-325 NYC War Emergency Gons (lot 723-G) or CDS 537 NYC 52' Gon (lot 791-G) dry transfers.
 
As for class designations, there was none on the NYC, only lot numbers.
 
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
NYCSHS Modeler's Committee Member
 


Re: Storage of ACC

Thomas Olsen <tmolsen@...>
 

In reply to Garth's comment that ACC could outgas in the refrigerator.
I have been storing my bottles of Jet ACC in the freezer for many
years and never realized that it could possibly do this. What do you
say if it has been stored in the freezer?

Tom Olsen
Newark, Delaware


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

Bill Welch
 

Indeed. While water ice and salt could keep a load well under 32 degrees, researchers found that perishables kept at Zero degrees and under remained viable, tasted better, and retained nutrients several months longer. This did vary with the commodity but all of them benefited from Zero. That trucks could promise this and the RR's could not was a big problem. The truckers ultimately won because they were also faster.

Bill Welch


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

riverman_vt@...
 

Com'on Bruce,

 

     Guess I missed any mention Bill made of the concentrate being shipped frozen. That, however, seem like quite a waste of corporate funds. And what does distance have to do with it? Milk was shipped in GPEX milk tank cars from Wisconsin to Florida in the 1920's, taking far more time than the average milk train to Boston, New York or Chicago took, and changed only a degree or two in temperature over the entire journey. If it could be done with milk it could be done with OJ and was for a number of years WITHOUT refrigeration. I'm surprised

Tropicana survived such a waste of corporate funds and wonder what their bottom line would have looked like without such a waste. They apparently took little note of what others had already done.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

Bruce Smith
 

Mark,

Dang, maybe I'm getting old, but when I was growing up in upstate NY, we got our orange juice in a cardboard tube with metal ends, frozen solid, at the grocery store.  Thus, the frozen concentrate being shipped was not necessarily for repackaging, but for direct sales to consumers.  As with all frozen food, it has to remain frozen to maintain quality. And even if it was being repackaged, temperature excursions on a food product such as this both can damage the nutritional quality of the food (the big sell for the frozen food industry, which mushroomed post WWII, as did the need for frozen food reefers) and above freezing there is the chance for bacterial and or fungal growth.  Why don't you see that in today's "fresh" OJ?  Ahem, well, try fresh squeezing some OJ and leave it out .  The steam era's OJ was not packaged with the preservatives that today's foods are and thus more care was needed to preserve the food from spoilage.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/


"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

On Jun 20, 2014, at 2:43 PM, caboose9792@... [STMFC] wrote:



I agree Don,
There is no reason, if anything it defy's reason. Even if the OJ departs frozen it would have to be heated on arrival. Letting the load self cool for the 2-5 days in transit and arrive as a slushy liquid ready to be diluted and bottled.
 
Mark Rickert
 
In a message dated 6/20/2014 10:39:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

   Respectfully, some of this makes sense and some of it does not, Bill. Why did orange juice concentrate

require refrigeration??? Ideally milk needs to be kept at 39 degrees, which had been achieved in milk tank cars

transported in both freight and passenger trains since the mid-1920's and without the use of refrigeration. Indeed, H.P. Hood was using some of its leased GPEX milk cars to move OJ concentrate from Dunedin, FL to Boston in the early 1970's, some four years after they stopped shipping any milk in some of the same cars.

I do not, however, know the date that Hood began shipping OJ concentrate in the GPEX cars, but this certainly makes me wonder why there was a need for Thermo-King units on cars used for that purpose after W.W. II. Was there a real need for such equipment or only a "perceived" need followed by a good snow, er "sales", job?

 

Cordially, Don Valentine





Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

caboose9792@...
 

Thank the AAR for that. (interchange rule 2).
Mark Rickert
 

In a message dated 6/20/2014 11:22:00 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
While they were effective at maintaining low temperatures, the power plants were fueled by gasoline meaning that they could only run on the FGE/WFE/BRE System including their contracted lines, as the RR's outside the system would not accept them for interchange because of the fuel  they used.


Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

caboose9792@...
 

I agree Don,
There is no reason, if anything it defy's reason. Even if the OJ departs frozen it would have to be heated on arrival. Letting the load self cool for the 2-5 days in transit and arrive as a slushy liquid ready to be diluted and bottled.
 
Mark Rickert
 

In a message dated 6/20/2014 10:39:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:

   Respectfully, some of this makes sense and some of it does not, Bill. Why did orange juice concentrate

require refrigeration??? Ideally milk needs to be kept at 39 degrees, which had been achieved in milk tank cars

transported in both freight and passenger trains since the mid-1920's and without the use of refrigeration. Indeed, H.P. Hood was using some of its leased GPEX milk cars to move OJ concentrate from Dunedin, FL to Boston in the early 1970's, some four years after they stopped shipping any milk in some of the same cars.

I do not, however, know the date that Hood began shipping OJ concentrate in the GPEX cars, but this certainly makes me wonder why there was a need for Thermo-King units on cars used for that purpose after W.W. II. Was there a real need for such equipment or only a "perceived" need followed by a good snow, er "sales", job?

 

Cordially, Don Valentine


Re: NYC 710648

John Barry
 

Eric,

Thanks for the TP link.  Lots of good photos there, although none of rail cars.  At least the bow ramps had a steel plate. . .
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: "Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NYC 710648

 
John, The ubiquitous Higgins boats were made by Higgins Industries in New Orleans during WWII. Here is a link to a short article in the local paper about it. Imagine running up on the beach at Normandy or Tarawa in one of these... made of plywood.

http://www.nola.com/175years/index.ssf/2011/11/1944_higgins_industries_in_new.html

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL




On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 11:35 AM, John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
Can any of you NYC guys help me with some modeling info for the NYC 710648?  I have it built in lot 702-G series 710000-710999 in 1941 and the builder's photo of the class unit from the CanadaSouthern website, along with a copy of the linked diagram.  All in all a great start to recreate this scene: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/fsa/item/oem2002005431/PP/resource/ , loading an LCM into the car at the Higgens Plant in New Orleans.  I see from the ORER that they were 70 ton cars, what kind of trucks?  Is there a commercial kit for this wood floored 52'6 gon?  The diagram and two photos give a good basis for scratching it if not, but if its been done. . .  
 
John Barry


PS, did it have a class designation?  Not sure how that worked on the NYC.

ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights




3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682




Evolution of the Richmond Sand House

John Barry
 

Featured in a previous post with SP gons in ATSF sand service, I've documented the history and evolution of the Richmond CA Sand House through three incarnations during the steam era.  It is a summation of information from disparate sources from the CA state archives to Kachina Press.  Enjoy!

 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682

57881 - 57900 of 183254