Date   

Southern Car & Foundry

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

It just hit me. Circumstantial evidence suggests that Southern Car & Foundry (1988-1904) was controlled by the same interests as Pressed Steel Car. Has anyone else come to this conclusion? Their Memphis plant apparently went to ACF and their Lenoir plant to Southern Railway. In 2-02, SC&F was building a new plant in Alabama to manufacture pressed steel cars which now makes complete sense
 
Eric.


Re: Steamtown Images

Eric Lombard
 

Mike and Schuyler -
Thank you for sharing the information on the current process and future plans for the Steamtown images. It all makes good sense to me and I really appreciate, as I'm sure we all do, the time and effort being put into making the images available by both Patrick McKnight at the NPS and the fellows at the EL discussion list.

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 10:06 PM, MDelvec952@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 



All,

The Steamtown collection is a great resource, and it's huge. The goal is to make the entire collection public somehow. There is an NPS portal through which some of the images are being added, and when it's ready to go public it will be announced.

The person most responsible for the collection, and has done an incredible job or organizing the volunteers and interns who have scanned more than 20k glass-plate-negatives, and cataloging more than an acre of file boxes, more than 100,000 rolled maps and drawings, years of train dispatcher sheets, is Steamtown historian Pat McKnight, at Pat_McKnight@....  This project that Pat has led and cultivated for several years is historically priceless. And collections have attracted other collections which has created perhaps the biggest accumulation of late 19th and early 20th Century business records available. The personal coorespondence of Sam Sloan and William Truesdale are among the DL&W stuff. Sloan had been president, officer or principle of more than 30 railroads during his life, from the Lackawanna in the East to a component of the Green Bay & Western. Sloan, Iowa, was named for him. If ever there was a subject for book-like treatise.

Please don't think or perpetuate any thinking that NPS has chosen the EL group as an outlet. Officially, the NPS will make the collection public. The EL list contains the largest concentration of Lackawanna and Erie historians and former employees available, so Historian McKnight on his own time shares five images daily so that this body of experts can opine and help identify the locations of the images. The feedback that comes from the list is added to the NPS database and spread sheets, information that will outlast all of us. The images are primarily to document construction or injury scenes, so the inclusion of freight equipment is usually incidental unless the injury occurred on the equipment.

While it's not currently easy to handle requests for images, be patient, as public display of this archive is a high priority. The Erielack archive link posted in another note should whet the whistle for those interested in the 1908-WWI-era freight cars.

Hope this helps                  ....Mike Del Vecchio

President, Tri-State Chapter NRHS (one of the groups supplying volunteers and a big part of the DL&W archive material now housed at Steamtown)







-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 22, 2014 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Steamtown Images

 
Thanks, Ray... I wonder that it appears as if the NPS has selected the EL list as a publication site. Seams a bit odd to me. Nothing against the EL, but my experience is that government organizations generally curate and make available their holdings via their own publication process.  I have emailed the curator at Steamtown whose name is on the photos to see if there is a way to directly access the collection. Also pinged my daughter who is an NPS ranger at Grand Canyon to see if she can find out. Eric

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 
>>Can someone share a URL for direct access the Steamtown image collection?

>>Probably I missed something but could not find a link on the Steamtown website.
>Eric Lombard
>Homewood, IL

Hi Eric,

As far as I know, the entire collection is being posted to the EL list, five a day.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL




Re: Tropicana in the 1950s

Guy Wilber
 

FGE Bill wrote:
 
"While they were effective at maintaining low temperatures, the power plants were fueled by gasoline meaning that they could only run on the FGE/WFE/BRE System including their contracted lines, as the RR's outside the system would not accept them for interchange because of the fuel  they used."
 
 
Bill,
 
 This was a provision of the Interchange Rules which gave the receiving roads the discretion to accept the cars in interchange (or not), so there may well have been some acceptance of such cars in off line use.   
 
Commenting on Bill's post,  Mark Rickert stated:
 
"Thank the AAR for that. (interchange rule 2)."
 
Thank the AAR for what?  If you are going to make reference to the Rule why not give some details?  Rule 2 covers a myriad of items, not just the provisions for accepting mechanical reefers powered by gasoline and LPG?   
 
 
First added to the Interchange Rules in 1953, the section of Rule 2 governing the interchange of mechanical reefers equipped with gas engines reads as such:
 
Rule 2, Section (d) Cars, loaded or empty, equipped with engines or heaters for the operation of which flammable liquids or gases having a flash point 80 degrees F., (open cup) or lower are used, for heating, lighting or refrigeration, will not be accepted in interchange except as follows:
 
(3)  Cars equipped with installations using gasoline or liquified petroleum gas to operate units for refrigeration purposes, are acceptable in interchange (for freight movement only) except where routed to or through areas where railroad has placed restriction specifically prohibiting the operation of such cars.  Railroads having such areas where the operation of such cars is prohibited or restricted, shall so indicate by publishing the location and extent of such areas by means of a suitable note in the publication "Railway Line Clearances".  Owners of cars equipped with such installations must indicate by a suitable explanatory note in the "Official Railway Equipment Register" the reporting marks, serial numbers and kind of equipments using fuels that would subject them to restricted operation as provided herein.  All such cars must be permanently placarded "Gasoline Driven Refrigeration Units" or Liquified Petroleum Gas Driven Refrigeration Units."
 
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada    
 
 


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <guycwilber@...> wrote :
 
"There is absolutely no way that the crew is just finishing applying the grain doors.  Those  grain doors which are on the ground are beat to hell and still contain nails which you can clearly see at the ends indicating that they have been removed from the car.  Grain doors were typically built up with two layers while the ones on the ground in this photo have been separated during removal. "

Guy, I concede your point.

I did find my copy of Hilton and DUE (gotta get those names correct!) They consistently use SL&NRR for the Syracuse Lake Shore & Northern, rather than SLS&N; I would assume they saw enough official correspondence and filings during their research that they had good reason to make that choice.

Dennis Storzek


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

rwitt_2000
 

FWIW, it looks like a team track to me so any load in any type of freight car could appear.

The roadway seems wider providing a lane for trucks or wagons next to the railroad track. The first image in this group captures the end of the spur and two horse and wagon teams in the background.

An interesting scene with a meandering track along a city street.

Bob Witt, Indianapolis, IN


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Guy Wilber
 

Dennis wrote:
 
"For that matter, for all we know, the car is spotted at the shipper. The crew is just finishing applying the grain doors... without seeing the other side of the car, it's hard to tell."
 
 
There is absolutely no way that the crew is just finishing applying the grain doors.  Those  grain doors which are on the ground are beat to hell and still contain nails which you can clearly see at the ends indicating that they have been removed from the car.  Grain doors were typically built up with two layers while the ones on the ground in this photo have been separated during removal. 
 
Guy Wilber
Reno, Nevada


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Dennis Storzek
 

Nobody is documenting the damaged car. If they were, it would be central to the image. The car has been coopered, and is perfectly fit for service... the shipper loaded it, right?

99 times out of 100, boxcar ends were damaged from the inside, when the load broke loose and tried to blast its way out of the car. You would think that the shipper of this load of granular material ( the car is fitted with grain doors) should have rejected this car, but hey, when cars were hard ti get, you take what is offered.

For that matter, for all we know, the car is spotted at the shipper. The crew is just finishing applying the grain doors... without seeing the other side of the car, it's hard to tell.

No matter, since the car is not centered in the frame, it's not the subject of interest, just an incidental bystander. If the end damage was the point of interest, I'd expect to see close-ups of the repair, complete with a stream of grain trickling out.

Thanks, Scott, for the id of the location... it will save me from trying to find my copy of Hilton & Drew after all these years.

Dennis


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650

MDelvec952@...
 


Yes, you hit the scene pretty much on the head. This is West 1st Street in Oswego and the date range in this series of negs is 1918. That SL&N sign appears in photos taken a few years before as well. 

While the collection is rich in imagery, there is very little information with it other than the occasional negative that contains a location or date. The photographer's notebooks were not included.  Too, there were simultaneous photos being taken by any of the three photographers at times, so the sequential negative numbers sometimes bounce around between locations.

              ....Mike Del Vecchio


-----Original Message-----
From: blindog@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650

 
For what it's worth, a sign near the intersection in pic # C4649 says SL&N R R / LIMITED CARS / STOP HERE. Google didn't give me any info on a railroad or interurban named SL&N. The cross street appears to be named MURRAY ST, and the main is W. FIRST ST. West First runs alongside a river, and there appears to be a lock in the river in picture C4647. Also, in C4648 a torn paper stapled to a pole has the number 1915 on it. Could be the year, or could an address. Might be a flyer for the county fair.

There is a google hit for an E. Sayer & Son Grocery in Oswego, New York. Started in 1973 by Edward Sayer, his grandson Frank ran the business in later years. And sure enough, there is a Murray Street that intersects West First Street alongside the Oswego River, right at a bend in West First.

Now we backtrack to looking for interurban railroads that served the area and find a Syracuse Lake Shore & Northern, which is likely the SL&N on the sign. A Wiki page says the SL&N was formed in 1905 and in 1913 merged with two other lines to form the Empire United Railways, which in 1916 was renamed the Empire State Railroad. It was abandoned in 1931.

So I'm pretty sure the photo was taken in Oswego, New York, but exactly when I can't say.

Hopefully Mr. Larrabee will forward this to Mr. McKnight.

Fun fun

Scott Chatfield


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650

Michael Aufderheide
 

Scott,

 

Take a look at Google street view.  The building is still there!  Eureka!

 

Mike Aufderheide


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Steve Haas
 

 

<<As to why it’s there on an team track?  Because a lot of freight was delivered to team tracks and carted, wagonned, drayed, or otherwise carried away to a location not directly served by rails.  Someone (perhaps on another list) suggested that the plant in the background (which somebody should be able to use to locate this picture) was perhaps a brewery or something else that might use grain.  I doubt that this carload was intended to go to that location, because that industry is certainly large enough to have had its own sidings.>>

 

Spotting the damaged car on the team track might have provided better access to the photographer asked to document the damage to the car.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650

D. Scott Chatfield
 

For what it's worth, a sign near the intersection in pic # C4649 says SL&N R R / LIMITED CARS / STOP HERE. Google didn't give me any info on a railroad or interurban named SL&N. The cross street appears to be named MURRAY ST, and the main is W. FIRST ST. West First runs alongside a river, and there appears to be a lock in the river in picture C4647. Also, in C4648 a torn paper stapled to a pole has the number 1915 on it. Could be the year, or could an address. Might be a flyer for the county fair.

There is a google hit for an E. Sayer & Son Grocery in Oswego, New York. Started in 1973 by Edward Sayer, his grandson Frank ran the business in later years. And sure enough, there is a Murray Street that intersects West First Street alongside the Oswego River, right at a bend in West First.

Now we backtrack to looking for interurban railroads that served the area and find a Syracuse Lake Shore & Northern, which is likely the SL&N on the sign. A Wiki page says the SL&N was formed in 1905 and in 1913 merged with two other lines to form the Empire United Railways, which in 1916 was renamed the Empire State Railroad. It was abandoned in 1931.

So I'm pretty sure the photo was taken in Oswego, New York, but exactly when I can't say.

Hopefully Mr. Larrabee will forward this to Mr. McKnight.

Fun fun

Scott Chatfield


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Douglas Harding
 

Dennis the only railroad I found was the Shepaug, Litchfield & Northern  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepaug,_Litchfield_and_Northern_Railroad

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: RI 262000 Series Auto Boxcars

Allan Smith
 

Thanks that was very informative.
Al


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Dennis Storzek
 

Thanks Doug. I belatedly see that in the second photo the other side of the same sign is visible at the left edge of the image, easily readable. One would think in DL&W territory, with the letters S and L, that the words Scranton and Lackawanna would bring something up on Google; they do, but none of the predecessors of the Northern Electric seem to have the right initials. I'm going to have to dig out my copy of Hilton & Drew's "The Interurban Electric Railway In America".

Dennis Storzek


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Douglas Harding
 

Dennis, appears to read SL&NRR

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Dennis Storzek
 

You guys are too fixated on the freight cars :-) It's obvious from the composition of the photos that they are NOT the main subject, the streetscape is. IF they were taken in response to an accident, the issue was likely sight lines being blocked by the cars.

Can anyone read the initials of the interurban company on the car stop sign that states that "limited cars stop here"?

And no, the Soo Line did not use brake steps, on anything, until the first of the AAR standard cars arrived in 1936. On their cars, the pawl and ratchet mechanism was always combined with the upper brake staff bracket.

Dennis Storzek


Re: RI 262000 Series Auto Boxcars

Charlie Duckworth
 

Al
The model is a resin kit made by Rocket Express.  Only changes from the model is I used Westerfield RI decals for the reporting marks.  Go to www.rocketexpress.biz to purchase one.  They make both versions of this car one with the automobile end door and one without.   

Charlie Duckworth


Re: Steamtown Images

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I agree with and can confirm everything that Mike’s written below.  And I agree that the erielack list is a sensible place to circulate these images on a regular basis, for as he said, there is a large number of relative experts on the DL&W (and ERIE and EL) on that list.  There have been a lot of location IDs generated from the posting of the images, and from time to time when I’ve posted the links to specific photos that include freight cars for the amusement and pleasure of the STMFC Community, there has been worthwhile information generated which I have sent to Pat to add to the documentation of the images.

 

Schuyler

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 11:06 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Steamtown Images

 

 



All,

The Steamtown collection is a great resource, and it's huge. The goal is to make the entire collection public somehow. There is an NPS portal through which some of the images are being added, and when it's ready to go public it will be announced.

The person most responsible for the collection, and has done an incredible job or organizing the volunteers and interns who have scanned more than 20k glass-plate-negatives, and cataloging more than an acre of file boxes, more than 100,000 rolled maps and drawings, years of train dispatcher sheets, is Steamtown historian Pat McKnight, at Pat_McKnight@....  This project that Pat has led and cultivated for several years is historically priceless. And collections have attracted other collections which has created perhaps the biggest accumulation of late 19th and early 20th Century business records available. The personal coorespondence of Sam Sloan and William Truesdale are among the DL&W stuff. Sloan had been president, officer or principle of more than 30 railroads during his life, from the Lackawanna in the East to a component of the Green Bay & Western. Sloan, Iowa, was named for him. If ever there was a subject for book-like treatise.

Please don't think or perpetuate any thinking that NPS has chosen the EL group as an outlet. Officially, the NPS will make the collection public. The EL list contains the largest concentration of Lackawanna and Erie historians and former employees available, so Historian McKnight on his own time shares five images daily so that this body of experts can opine and help identify the locations of the images. The feedback that comes from the list is added to the NPS database and spread sheets, information that will outlast all of us. The images are primarily to document construction or injury scenes, so the inclusion of freight equipment is usually incidental unless the injury occurred on the equipment.

While it's not currently easy to handle requests for images, be patient, as public display of this archive is a high priority. The Erielack archive link posted in another note should whet the whistle for those interested in the 1908-WWI-era freight cars.

Hope this helps                  ....Mike Del Vecchio

President, Tri-State Chapter NRHS (one of the groups supplying volunteers and a big part of the DL&W archive material now housed at Steamtown)




 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lombard elombard@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sun, Jun 22, 2014 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Steamtown Images

 

Thanks, Ray... I wonder that it appears as if the NPS has selected the EL list as a publication site. Seams a bit odd to me. Nothing against the EL, but my experience is that government organizations generally curate and make available their holdings via their own publication process.  I have emailed the curator at Steamtown whose name is on the photos to see if there is a way to directly access the collection. Also pinged my daughter who is an NPS ranger at Grand Canyon to see if she can find out. Eric


Eric Lombard

Homewood, IL

 

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

>>Can someone share a URL for direct access the Steamtown image collection?

>>Probably I missed something but could not find a link on the Steamtown website.
>Eric Lombard
>Homewood, IL

Hi Eric,

As far as I know, the entire collection is being posted to the EL list, five a day.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

 


FW: FW: Steamtown Images

Schuyler Larrabee
 

In response to Eric’s request this AM, I emailed Richard McKnight to ask him how I could inform the STMFC community on how to link to these images.  His reply is below.  In the meantime I see that some have found the links to the Railfan.net site which also has accumulated all these images.  But you can read below what Richard said to me in reply to my query.

 

Schuyler

 

From: McKnight, Richard
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 9:57 PM
To: Schuyler Larrabee
Subject: Re: FW: [STMFC] Steamtown Images

 

Schuyler,

 

I really do not know how to link to the stuff on the EL discussion list.  It is not a perfect system, but does allow for me to get a lot of comments from various sources and fix a lot of "unknown locations".

 

I am starting to post on a special National Park Service digital library site called NPSFocus.  It can be accessed at:

 

 

As time permits, I hope to post all our images on this site.  You will need to put in search parameters to pull up information on Steamtown.  If you type in "Steamtown" in your search parameters you will get all Steamtown images.  If you type in "010.06.01" you will get the complete A-Series that I posted.  If you type in "010.06.03" you will get some of the C series, but not all.  

 

Posting images on this site is labor intensive and I just do not have enough time in a day.  Right now I am responding to you from a vacation house at the Outer Banks.  Also, calling up information using NPSFocus does not work right sometimes.

 

So give NPSFocus a try.  Let me know if I may be of further assistance.

 

Pat

 

 

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Schuyler Larrabee <schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

Hi Pat,

 

I have been forwarding the links to some of the DL&W images that contain freight cars to the Steam Freight Cars Yahoo list.  They are very much appreciated and generate some very informative responses. 

 

What can I tell Eric, below, and the others on that list, as to how to subscribe to the feeds?

 

I’d rather get the information from you and distribute it to the STMFC list that simply give them all your address so you’d end up, perhaps, swamped with requests.  But if that’s the best technique, well, that’s what I’ll do.  Please let me know.

 

Schuyler

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:10 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Steamtown Images

 

 

Can someone share a URL for direct access the Steamtown image collection? Probably I missed something but could not find a link on the Steamtown website.

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL

 



 

--

Patrick McKnight

Historian/Archivist

Steamtown NHS

150 S. Washington Avenue

Scranton, PA

 

Phone: 570-340-5193

Cell: 570-862-6321

FAX: 570-340-5222

 

The employees of the National Park Service care for special places that are the heritage of all Americans. Since its inception in 1916, the National Park Service has been dedicated to the preservation and management of this country's outstanding natural, historical, and recreational resources.


Re: FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Charlie, there’s not really any mystery to this.  The DL&W retained a professional photographer to take photos all the time.  The SP car has a broken-through end.  This is probably documentation of that fact, as once the car was emptied, the DL&W would be required to fix it.  The cost of the repair would be borne by the SP.  This gave them incontrovertible proof of the extent of the repair.

 

In this same series is a shot of a road crossing.  It’s likely that the photo of the crossing was taken to show that the crossing was well marked and whoever lost their wagon or horse or maybe their life at this crossing should have known to “Watch out for the train.”  It’s like the signs on the UP in Nebraska these days:  “Trains pass this crossing at speeds in excess of 90 miles per hour.”

 

As to why it’s there on an team track?  Because a lot of freight was delivered to team tracks and carted, wagonned, drayed, or otherwise carried away to a location not directly served by rails.  Someone (perhaps on another list) suggested that the plant in the background (which somebody should be able to use to locate this picture) was perhaps a brewery or something else that might use grain.  I doubt that this carload was intended to go to that location, because that industry is certainly large enough to have had its own sidings.

 

Schuyler

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:19 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646 thru C4650)

 

 

There is some mystery there. Why would a car load of grain or whatever be
at this street side team track and have a professional photographer there to
take multiple photos of the event?

Charlie

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 4:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] FW: (erielack) Steamtown Images--June 21, 2014 (C4646
thru C4650)

>Thanks for posting the link to this photo. The next in the sequence (click
>"Next Image" below photo) has a better shot of SP 85753 and also includes
>SOO 19764. I hazard that what appears to be lumber in the open doorway of
>SP 85753 are actually three grain boards. The wood item leaning against the
>car would then be a fourth, smaller, upper one. That image also shows SP
>85753 to have a "what do we have in the junk pile to patch that hole in the
>end" repair.
>Eric Lombard
>Homewood, IL

They're definitely "grain" doors Eric; the high-res version of the photo
gives you a lot of detail that the downloadable version doesn't show.
There's no clues as to what the lading was, however.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

------------------------------------
Posted by: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...>
------------------------------------

------------------------------------

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