Date   

Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

A little digging on the web page where the original photo was shown at:
gives a very nice history of the development of this series of tanks (although the translation is rough at times!).

As several folks have noted, this appears to be a T43 test vehicle and not an in service M103.  The depressed center car was needed overseas because of tighter clearances.

Given that the T43 prototypes were sent from the Detroit Tank Arsenal to Aberdeen and Fort Knox for testing and with a weight of around 60 tons, these would have required an appropriate flat car for transport (probably NOT the overseas flat car in the photo).  This sort of "rare" load may only appear a few times as the prototypes made the trip from factory to test facility and back to the factory (and perhaps back to the test facility after modifications), but it can be an excuse to "bump" era a bit... for example, I have an M26 Pershing model that I purchased before realizing it was too modern for me... however, the T26E1 is just about perfect to send to Aberdeen.

See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHWWIJ-e94 for a brief video of the T43 undergoing testing.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 12:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: odd US military depressed center flat car



Ed,

I think you're right and this is a tank in its development and testing stage.

Of course, if that's the case the photo could date from anytime from the late 1940s through 1957-58 when the tank was deployed as the M103.

For a lot of details on the tank - see M103 Heavy Tank 1950-74 (New Vanguard)

Might be interesting to send the photo to the author and see if he can offer more details on the photo, which I'm sure he uncovered in his research for the book. 

But don't get confused into thinking this was an "Army" tank - it was the mainstay of the Marines armored elements for two decades - the Army never really wanted the thing.

Marty McGuirk 


 




Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <Edwardsutorik@...> wrote :

"I was wondering if the car could have been in foreign service at the time of the photo.  And perhaps it was.  But as I noted in my just submitted comments, the tank looks to me to be in "pre-release" form.  Thus it would be unlikely to be out of the country."

I wasn't suggesting that the car was out of country. I'm going to have to defer to the military experts here, but I don't think those "overseas" flats were ever deployed, but rather spent their entire lives on bases here in the US. I'm sure I've seen references to the  "Roco" style flatcars in Gov't surplus disposition auctions over the years, so at least some must have been built and held ready for deployment. If this is a new, in development tank, it stands to reason at some point that did a "test fitting" to the cars that were designed to haul them across Europe to the front lines.

Dennis Storzek


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

I notice that the photo of the tank on the DC flat has the cannon elevated
about the same amount as in the link belowŠ

Just an observation.

I would agree with the revised possible date span as well.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Monday, June 30, 2014 at 12:42 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] odd US military depressed center flat car







I guess it's actually not that hard to get a tank off a depressed center
flatcar (or something similar):



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/M103_Coleman_Barracks.jpg



It is, after all, what they "do".



Ed

Edward Sutorik










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Marty McGuirk
 

Ed,

I think you're right and this is a tank in its development and testing stage.

Of course, if that's the case the photo could date from anytime from the late 1940s through 1957-58 when the tank was deployed as the M103.

For a lot of details on the tank - see M103 Heavy Tank 1950-74 (New Vanguard)

Might be interesting to send the photo to the author and see if he can offer more details on the photo, which I'm sure he uncovered in his research for the book. 

But don't get confused into thinking this was an "Army" tank - it was the mainstay of the Marines armored elements for two decades - the Army never really wanted the thing.

Marty McGuirk 


 


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

spsalso
 

I guess it's actually not that hard to get a tank off a depressed center flatcar (or something similar):





It is, after all, what they "do".



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

spsalso
 

I was wondering if the car could have been in foreign service at the time of the photo.  And perhaps it was.  But as I noted in my just submitted comments, the tank looks to me to be in "pre-release" form.  Thus it would be unlikely to be out of the country.

Getting a tank on and off a depressed center car is MUCH less fun than a standard flat.  But if one needed better vertical clearance, say in Europe, it might be a good idea.  But that raises the question of European weight limits and axle loadings.  Total weight for a depressed center car is usually higher than for an equivalent load/flat deck car.

I note that the ORER says of the USAX reporting marks:  "See Department of the Army, Transportation Supply and Maintenance Command".  If the subject car were "owned" by Army Ordnance, it would reasonably not be listed by DOA,TSMC.

I find the number series interesting.  At the time, only NYC used the 49xxxx numbering.  Yikes, what are the odds?




Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Dennis Storzek
 

Following on, the photo has the appearance of being taken to show how nicely the tank fit the existing "overseas service" flatcars. I suspect this was a staged photo for just this purpose, not a photo of a tank loaded for domestic shipment.

Dennis Storzek


Re: "Monon Route" GARX reefer

Michael Aufderheide
 

Bill,

 

Since no one has chimed in on this, I will tell you what little I know about this.  I've collected Monon photos for about 15 years and have never come across photos of the cars you are asking about.  In fact the only photos of Monon reefers I have ever seen were in company ice service from the '40s & '50s.  Until now I had not heard of the decal set you mention.   There was an Athearn (Bev Bel?) car with lettering that may have been inspired by your set.  It has the same road number and even a curved builder's stencil.  This model also has a "MONON ROUTE" losenge herald that was used on freight cars until about 1910.

 

The Monon had two groups of their own reefers, but both pre-date the decal date you have, were owned by the railroad and would have been lettered C.I.L.  

 

Having said that, I have found Champ's sets to to be accurate, if not always exactly to scale.  They even had a set to letter the Monon's 6(!) company service tank cars.  So there may have been a car that the set represents.

 

Regards,

 

Mike Aufderheide


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

spsalso
 

Re: the tank

I believe that, at the time of the photo, the tank was called a T43E1.  They were built in 1953-1954.  They were re-classified M103's in April 1956.  I have this belief because:

The lettering on the turret says "U. S. Army Ordnance".  And there's no star.  So I think this was a photo of a tank still in un-assigned service.  Hence it's unlikely to have gotten to M103 status.  Also, the photo is not a classic railfan type shot.  I looks to me very much like an "official" shot of a new-ish tank.  And that could explain how the turret got swung around for the shot--something easy to do if you are in the in-crowd.

And thus I would place the photo between 1953 and 1956.



Ed

Edward Sutorik


Re: Pressed Steel Car

frograbbit602
 

Hello Don,
No advantage, only the enjoyment of the build.  I enjoy the build and detailing  of a plastic car just as a resin car.  I find if a plastic car is correct and detailed to the same level as a resin car once weathered  and placed side by side on my railroad, a majority of modelers when looking at the cars can not tell me which is the plastic or resin car.  As for the F&C CP "mini" box it was in inventory and had reached the top of the build list.
Lester  Breuer


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

John Barry
 

Gene,

Thank you for providing a reference to document what I have observed over the last 50 years.  Photos of WWII equipment so marked abound with stuff moving to Europe and never listed in the domestic ORER.  The flat is suspiciously similar to the AHM/Rocco that I received two of circa 1968.  Perhaps it DID have a prototype after all.  And I did see versions of same for sale in Europe with European buffers and couplers.  
 
John Barry


ATSF North Bay Lines
Golden Gates & Fast Freights


707-490-9696


3450 Palmer Drive, Suite 4224
Cameron Park, CA 95682


From: "genegreen1942@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 12:42 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

 
In general the reporting marks "USA" instead of "USAX" identified US Army freight cars intended for or actually in foreign service.  Foreign service usually meant Korea or Germany but some cars and locomotives in the inventory could have the gauge widened to 60 or 66 inches which might suggest to some the possibility of use in countries other than those in western Europe (Spain excluded) or Korea.

The car in the photo appears very similar to the car illustrated on page 5-30 of Department of the Army Technical Manual (TM) 55-208 dated October 1976 which car was described as "Railway car, flat, depressed center, 56 1/2 (143.51 cm), 60 (152.40 cm) and 66 inch (167.64 cm) gages, 70 ton (63 metric ton), 12 wheel, foreign service."

The Department of Defense did not use the reporting marks in most internal documents so, unless you can get close enough to the car to find and read the Federal or National Stock Number, you can't connect the contents of TM 55-208 with contents of the ORER, if indeed the ORER is even applicable.

Gene the insomniac Green



Re: Refrigerator cars

np328
 

I have uploaded some documents found at the Minnesota Historical Society in the Northern Pacific Co files.

 

These are AAR documents and the desk staff on site OK'd these of any copyright restrictions on the MHS's part as he felt these were originally for open distribution from the AAR and so they are posted here.

 

The orders covering the substitution of refrigerator cars for box cars are listed from inception to about 1956. No info past that date was present.

 

These 10 pages in the folder list the history of substitution arrangement - Refrigerator Cars for Box Cars on Westbound Continental Traffic, and are found in the file: Refrigerator Cars for Box Cars Refrigerator Cars for Box Cars

 

James Dick - Roseville, MN


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.


File : /Refrigerator Cars for Box Cars /Service Order History001.jpg
Uploaded by : np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...>
Description : AAR historical listing of Service Orders


You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/files/Refrigerator%20Cars%20for%20Box%20Cars%20/Service%20Order%20History001.jpg


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398


Regards,


np328 <jcdworkingonthenp@...>


Re: [EXTERNAL] Hand Brake Display (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Gene;

There is a gentleman in southern California that has handbrake assemblies hung all over his back yard fencing, but as far as I know, they were never viewed by/displayed for, the public.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 8:40 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] Hand Brake Display



I've posted some photos in an album name Hand Brake Display of the hand brake display in the Harvey House Museum in Belen, New Mexico. It will be on display through July 6. Those on display are less than half of my total collection.




It had been my intention to sand blast and paint all in bright colors but the museum's display guru wanted some in "as is" condition. More to the point, I ran out of time. Don't freak out about sand blasting. All the brakes except two were defective when I got them. I've restored a couple to working order including the Ajax 14665-1 which is gratifying loud when children spin the hand wheel to apply.




This might be the first such display of freight car hand brakes. Does anyone know of something similar previous to this.




Gene Green









Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Charles Peck
 

I find the trucks interesting. Look like Buckeyes but with outboard bolster bearings for stability.
It's been a looooong time since I've been around one of those tanks but it does not look ready
for shipment. More like just a test loading.  I say this because of two things. The 50 cal. MG 
mount on top should be stowed inside, not exposed. And the main gun is elevated, not down
on its travel rests. 
And I wonder why this photo is evidently hosted on a Czechoslovakian website. 
Chuck Peck


On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 12:23 AM, Edwardsutorik@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Well, it's being odd to me, so I'm submitting it here for comments.  Here's a link:



http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg



The reporting mark is "USA 499051".  The photo was most likely taken between 1953 and 1956.  The tank is a T43E1, later an M103.


I'm puzzled that it's not "USAX" instead of "USA".  And I'm puzzled that the car doesn't show up in the ORER, at least in 1950 and 1956.  Interestingly, the car number is quite similar to the NYC series for flats.


So, what is it?  And does it have any siblings?


Any and all assistance will be appreciated,



Ed


Edward Sutorik




Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

Marty McGuirk
 

Why are you puzzled it's "USA" and not "USAX?" "USA" was a valid reporting mark assigned to the United States Army. As was "USAX." As far as I know they're still considered valid reporting marks by the AAR although most DOD owned rail cars are currently assigned "DODX" reporting marks, I know there's plenty of "USN" lettered cars still around (and some lettered "USNX"). So the existence of a "USA" car in the late 50s wouldn't surprise me.

 

I think it's very odd that the barrel isn't traversed and locked for transport. I also think some of the lighting looks little strange. That photo, provided it's not faked in some way, looks to be from the late 1950s. (The M103 tank was first deployed in 1957, but it may have been photographed prior to deployment when it was being developed and tested).

 

I'm not a tank expert but I know the 103 was primarily fielded by the USMC between 1957 and 1972, when they were all retired from service. A total of 300 M103s were built - with only 70 or so in the Army's inventory for a brief period of time - by 1963 the Army transferred all their M103s to the USMC. 

 

Marty McGuirk 


Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

That¹s an M103 heavy tank. Since it was deployed in 1957, this just
qualifies as STMFC material. LOL!

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Sunday, June 29, 2014 at 11:23 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: [STMFC] odd US military depressed center flat car







Well, it's being odd to me, so I'm submitting it here for comments. Here's
a link:





http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg




<http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg>

http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg
<http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg>



View on en.valka.cz <http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg>
Preview by Yahoo







The reporting mark is "USA 499051". The photo was most likely taken between
1953 and 1956. The tank is a T43E1, later an M103.



I'm puzzled that it's not "USAX" instead of "USA". And I'm puzzled that the
car doesn't show up in the ORER, at least in 1950 and 1956. Interestingly,
the car number is quite similar to the NYC series for flats.



So, what is it? And does it have any siblings?



Any and all assistance will be appreciated,





Ed



Edward Sutorik


Re: USRA Hoppers

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


LNE is easy ... they didn't have any. Neither did LV unless you count the ephemeral series that went to B&O/M&K shortly after delivery. Both had generally similar cars built before USRA designs were created.
 
RDG 73000 weighed 2-55 has an Ajax power handbrake I think. Painted the typical scheme with roman "READING" and Americas Largest Anthracite Carrier logo. 73650 and 74158 appear similar. Air brakes on 73000,73650 have been upgraded.
 
Eric N.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 10:44 PM
Subject: [STMFC] USRA Hoppers

 

Hi, all - 


I'm looking for some information as to when specific roads upgraded their USRA hoppers to AB Brakes, or handbrakes. The roads I'm interested in are:

B&O
CNJ
CRP
D&H
DL&W
LNE
LV
NYC
RDG


I'm focused on 1947 right now.


Thanks!


Randy

--

Randy Hammill

Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954 | New Britain Station



Re: odd US military depressed center flat car

genegreen1942@...
 

In general the reporting marks "USA" instead of "USAX" identified US Army freight cars intended for or actually in foreign service.  Foreign service usually meant Korea or Germany but some cars and locomotives in the inventory could have the gauge widened to 60 or 66 inches which might suggest to some the possibility of use in countries other than those in western Europe (Spain excluded) or Korea.

The car in the photo appears very similar to the car illustrated on page 5-30 of Department of the Army Technical Manual (TM) 55-208 dated October 1976 which car was described as "Railway car, flat, depressed center, 56 1/2 (143.51 cm), 60 (152.40 cm) and 66 inch (167.64 cm) gages, 70 ton (63 metric ton), 12 wheel, foreign service."

The Department of Defense did not use the reporting marks in most internal documents so, unless you can get close enough to the car to find and read the Federal or National Stock Number, you can't connect the contents of TM 55-208 with contents of the ORER, if indeed the ORER is even applicable.

Gene the insomniac Green


odd US military depressed center flat car

spsalso
 

Well, it's being odd to me, so I'm submitting it here for comments.  Here's a link:



http://en.valka.cz/files/tank_t43_zd_418.jpg



The reporting mark is "USA 499051".  The photo was most likely taken between 1953 and 1956.  The tank is a T43E1, later an M103.


I'm puzzled that it's not "USAX" instead of "USA".  And I'm puzzled that the car doesn't show up in the ORER, at least in 1950 and 1956.  Interestingly, the car number is quite similar to the NYC series for flats.


So, what is it?  And does it have any siblings?


Any and all assistance will be appreciated,



Ed


Edward Sutorik