Date   

Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Armand Premo
 


Thank you very much.A.Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 

There is a photo of RDG 18700 in TS 75 page 395. It shows the roofwalk and no laterals. Also in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia vol #3 page 37 is a model color paint guide for steam era freight cars. It shows a Floquill formula of 50% #74 and #186. Of course now that Foquill is no longer available about any Red Brown mix will work.


On Monday, July 7, 2014 1:27 PM, "'A Premo' armprem2@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
As an aside,what color would be a match for Reading Boxcars in the steam era? Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 


Eric do you know of any photos online of these treadplate lateral roof panels? They sound really weird.
I would think they'd be more susceptible to ice build-up than the raised laterals with holes cut into them.

Tim O'



They were integral least as far as the RDG box and caboose cars were concerned. The running boad wa a separate piece, but if you took it away, there would be a gaping hole down the middle of the roof. Likewise, the end platfrorms were simply roof panels made from diamond plate. Tim would be correct for some RDG covered hopper cars such as LOc. Those running boards are mounted on brackets like any typical running board. Since they are not an integral part of the roof, they have a number of drainage slots.
 
Eric N.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: mailto:timboconnor@...%20[STMFC]
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 8:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

I don't think the Alan Wood running boards were 'integral' with
the roof, i.e. I don't think they formed part of the roof itself.
Here is the 1940 patent for the Alan Wood box car running boards, which
is perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US2279756
And here is the 1930 patent for the Alan Wood tank car running boards,
also perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1889605
Tim O'Connor
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Re: Fallen flags web-site...What happened?

MDelvec952
 



There's more to the story, but he's changing host companies and hopes to present a more refined site that can be financially supported by those using the site.

                ....Mike Del Vecchio


-----Original Message-----
From: amwing1588@... [STMFC] To: STMFC
Sent: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 7:06 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Fallen flags web-site...What happened?

 
Hi all,

Went to do some research on Geroge Elwoods "Fallen Flags" www.rr-fallenflags.org. ; web-site and found that it is no longer up and running. Any one know what happened?

John Miller
Folsom, CA.


Re: NYC car type?

Seth Lakin
 

Clark as Dave pointed out, NYC boxcar characteristics of the day included the tow lugs at the bolsters. I use Detail Associates 1106 Alco PA/FA lift rings, they need a little squeeze to narrow them down a bit. I see that DA also offers a #6214 roping rings, they look the same as the lift rings but I don't have any to measure the difference, the LHS only stocks DA diesel parts so that is what usually comes home.
 
Also one detail that are on NYC boxcars that are not represented on the Branchline kit are polling pockets. I drill them into the ends with a 1/16 drill. Be careful, one quarter twist too far, you'll end up with a hole instead of a cup. I show this technique in my article on modeling a NYC lot 858-B boxcar that is slated to run in the next (Sept or Oct) NYCModeler, the free modeling ezine from the New York Central System Historical Society.
 
Decals are a little hard to find. I suggest CDS dry transfer #459 which is for a NYC lot 763-B boxcar. While not quite the same, the data should be all correct, as it is an identical boxcar, just from a different builder. If you want a jade green car, Microscale should have everything you need.
 
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
Member NYCHS Modeler's Committee
 
 
 
 


Fallen flags web-site...What happened?

amwing1588@...
 

Hi all,

Went to do some research on Geroge Elwoods "Fallen Flags" www.rr-fallenflags.org.  web-site and found that it is no longer up and running. Any one know what happened?

John Miller
Folsom, CA.



Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Allan Smith
 

There is a photo of RDG 18700 in TS 75 page 395. It shows the roofwalk and no laterals. Also in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia vol #3 page 37 is a model color paint guide for steam era freight cars. It shows a Floquill formula of 50% #74 and #186. Of course now that Foquill is no longer available about any Red Brown mix will work.


On Monday, July 7, 2014 1:27 PM, "'A Premo' armprem2@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
As an aside,what color would be a match for Reading Boxcars in the steam era? Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 


Eric do you know of any photos online of these treadplate lateral roof panels? They sound really weird.
I would think they'd be more susceptible to ice build-up than the raised laterals with holes cut into them.

Tim O'



They were integral least as far as the RDG box and caboose cars were concerned. The running boad wa a separate piece, but if you took it away, there would be a gaping hole down the middle of the roof. Likewise, the end platfrorms were simply roof panels made from diamond plate. Tim would be correct for some RDG covered hopper cars such as LOc. Those running boards are mounted on brackets like any typical running board. Since they are not an integral part of the roof, they have a number of drainage slots.
 
Eric N.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: mailto:timboconnor@...%20[STMFC]
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 8:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

I don't think the Alan Wood running boards were 'integral' with
the roof, i.e. I don't think they formed part of the roof itself.
Here is the 1940 patent for the Alan Wood box car running boards, which
is perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US2279756
And here is the 1930 patent for the Alan Wood tank car running boards,
also perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1889605
Tim O'Connor
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com/
Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3986/7808 - Release Date: 07/06/14



Re: NYC car type?

Allan Smith
 

The Railmodel Journal Nov 99 Page 28 has pictures and construction details of the 164000-164999 Lot 759B  boxcars. One photo is of the A end and the murphy roof. Also the various lettering schemes.
Al Smith


On Monday, July 7, 2014 6:46 AM, "Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Clark Propst asked:
"Just found a car I’d like to model NYC 164202. Anyone have any idea if it’s something available, or kitbashable?"

NYC 164000-164999, Lot 759-B, postwar 10 ft 6 in IH AAR boxcar, 6 ft door opening, 4/4 Improved Dreadnaught ends, rectangular panel roof.  Branchline #1400 undec kit is your best starting point.
http://www.steamerafreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/postwaraarpdf.html
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/NYC-MODELS-FREIGHT2.htm
 
 
Ben Hom



Re: NYC car type?

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

I guess the main problem is that their lot system makes their fleet seem very complex and even a bit scary. It's not very intuitive.
 
Eric N.
 
 

Eric Neubauer wrote:
"I don't think things are as gloomy as you think.
Whenever I compile builder lists, the original identity and quantity are on the
first line. Between the diagram books, Railway Age annual order summaries, and
the ORER, I rarely have any trouble coming up with the primary information for
NYCS cars. It only gets difficult when I get back to the wooden cars, but that's
true for most railroads."
You misunderstand me.  I have no doubt that the details exist.  As Clark's earlier comments illustrate, what's missing is an understanding of the big picture.  For example, the casual modeler on this list knows what PRR boxcars are the most common thanks to the work done by many researchers, including Ian Fischer, Richard Burg, and others over the years.  Nothing approaching even this coarse granularity exists for the NYCS.  Everyone wants a magnum opus - it simply doesn't exist for the NYCS.  Can anyone point to ANY source that shows proportions of cars that a modeler can use to build a fleet?  How many USRA-design steel boxcars?  How many prewar AAR boxcars?  How many postwar AAR boxcars?  Sadly, the answer is a resounding no. 

The details are there, but what needs to be done is someone to do the work putting all of the pieces together into a mosaic capturing the big picture.

Ben Hom  


NYC ballast cars

Brad Andonian
 

Noel,

I saw an image online of a NYC ballast car that was not a Hart Selective service.    I am wondering if you can clarify what NYC operated during late steam era?

Thanks,
Brad


Re: NYC car type?

Benjamin Hom
 

Eric Neubauer wrote:
"I don't think things are as gloomy as you think.
Whenever I compile builder lists, the original identity and quantity are on the
first line. Between the diagram books, Railway Age annual order summaries, and
the ORER, I rarely have any trouble coming up with the primary information for
NYCS cars. It only gets difficult when I get back to the wooden cars, but that's
true for most railroads."
You misunderstand me.  I have no doubt that the details exist.  As Clark's earlier comments illustrate, what's missing is an understanding of the big picture.  For example, the casual modeler on this list knows what PRR boxcars are the most common thanks to the work done by many researchers, including Ian Fischer, Richard Burg, and others over the years.  Nothing approaching even this coarse granularity exists for the NYCS.  Everyone wants a magnum opus - it simply doesn't exist for the NYCS.  Can anyone point to ANY source that shows proportions of cars that a modeler can use to build a fleet?  How many USRA-design steel boxcars?  How many prewar AAR boxcars?  How many postwar AAR boxcars?  Sadly, the answer is a resounding no. 

The details are there, but what needs to be done is someone to do the work putting all of the pieces together into a mosaic capturing the big picture.


Ben Hom


Re: NYC car type?

Rick Jesionowski
 

Use Control F to look up a car number in a series of cars. Works for me.

Rick Jesionowski


Re: NYC car type?

Michael Aufderheide
 

Clark,

 

Branchline did issue the series after this-Lot 763-B.....if you can find one on ebay, etc. It looks to be identical to the lot you asked about with the possible exception of handbrake and running board (per the Steam Era site table)  I have car number 165289. Intermountain has done many series similar to these lots, but I don't know with which ends. 

 

Regards,

 

Mike Aufderheide



Re: Upgrading AHM Helium Cars

asychis@...
 

Bob, you are right, this is a great article.  Jay did a great job.  The Amarillo Railroad Museum tried to get Exact Rails interested in doing this model, but no interest so far.  BTW, if anyone want real information on these cars, we have an MHAX car sitting in the "back yard." Drop by!
 
Jerry Michels


Re: NYC car type?

Noel Widdifield
 

You can also get in touch with us at the NYCSHS.  We have a very active Modeling Committee working on some of the issue you talk about. We use lot numbers to find the cars and then the equipment diagram books give us the road number for the lots.
 If you have specific questions you can direct them to us at NYCSHS@... and we can probably help you.
Thanks, Noel
Noel Widdifield
NYCSHS Director
Chair, NYCSHS Modeling Committee


Re: NYC car type?

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 


Ben,
 
I don't think things are as gloomy as you think. Whenever I compile builder lists, the original identity and quantity are on the first line. Between the diagram books, Railway Age annual order summaries, and the ORER, I rarely have any trouble coming up with the primary information for NYCS cars. It only gets difficult when I get back to the wooden cars, but that's true for most railroads.
 
Eric N. 
 
 

Clark Propst wrote:
"I did dig through that Canadian [Southern] website to find the car. Guess it’s designed for NYC freaks? Why else would everything be listed by lot numbers instead of being in numerical order? Gads..."
 
Actually, the lot number system makes more sense than number series once you crack the code (having an equipment diagram book helps immensely) as the same car type can span multiple lots, but it's still not as intuitive as the PRR Class system.
 
What's needed is a Rosetta stone that links lot numbers with frieght car types and a comparison of overall quanties to get a true sense of what the NYC fleet was truly all about. For example: Lot 703-B = 10 ft IH 1937 AAR boxcar, 1073 cars; Lots 734-B, 745-B = 10 ft 6 in IH Modified 1937 AAR boxcar, 2000 cars, and so on.
 
As a community, we really don't know what we don't know about the NYCS car fleet, and that in turn hurts model availability as we don't have a good sense of what needs to be targeted.  I'm kicking around some ideas on how to collate and display this data and should have an initial proof of concept something out later this summer.
 
 
Ben Hom 


Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

The diamond plate definitely took the place of the roof panel at least as far as RDG box car applications. So there were clearly several ways of doing things. The RDG box cars are earlier than the X37B. RDG class LOB and LOC were built in 1940 and 1941. Both had steel running boards, but the height to running boards is different, 12'8.625 and 12-10 respectively. This probably reflects a change from integral to separate running boards. Class NML built 1941 also had separate running boards, so it appears that sometime between 1940 and 1941, RDG abandoned integral running boards. PRR X37B was built in two batches 6=7-40 and 11-41=3-42.
 
Eric N.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 


Ben, to me that lateral appears to sit ON the roof panel -- It is not
the roof panel itself. Therefore I think the term "integral" is incorrect
in this case.

And the lateral obviously has slots in it. Don't you see them?

Tim O'Connor

>Brian Carlson wrote:
>"I'm at work so I don't have a direct link but look for early H30 covered hoppers, and I think X37 boxcars."
>
>Brian is directly on point. Here's an Alan Wood builder's photo showing PRR Class X37B boxcars with Alan Wood running boards and integral lateral running boards without slots.
>http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=BuildersPhotos/X37B_67131_roof_BillLane.jpg&fr=
>
>Ben Hom


Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Tim O'Connor
 


Super-Diamond was the trade name for the diamond tread plate material. The patented running boards
were made from this material, but they were modified with the slot  holes and optional 'flanges'  around the
holes for additional safety.

Tim


I can add a couple of details. On the longitudinal running board, the ends are also folded down creating an upside down pan shape.
The roof panels have a flange where they meet the running board and the flange goes up inside the inverted pan.
 
The 4-36 issue of RME has a photo essay of building the XARa class icluding the roof under construction. It notes that the running board
will be welded on. It also says, "Alan-Wood Super-Diamond steel running boards and roof platforms." Construction is very similar to XMv.
So, does "Alan-Wood Super-Diamond" just refer to the diamond plate, or does it refer to the running board? It's a bit ambiguous.
 
Eric N.


Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

I can add a couple of details. On the longitudinal running board, the ends are also folded down creating an upside down pan shape. The roof panels have a flange where they meet the running board and the flange goes up inside the inverted pan.
 
The 4-36 issue of RME has a photo essay of building the XARa class icluding the roof under construction. It notes that the running board will be welded on. It also says, "Alan-Wood Super-Diamond steel running boards and roof platforms."
Construction is very similar to XMv. So, does "Alan-Wood Super-Diamond" just refer to the diamond plate, or does it refer to the running board? It's a bit ambiguous.
 
Eric N.
 
 


Thanks Eric!

Eric sent me photos of the Reading XMv roof -- Now I am convinced this
is not an Alan Wood 'running board' (a specific product made by Alan Wood)
but is indeed just steel diamond tread plate, a product made by Alan Wood
(and for which they held the patent, as I had said).

The tread plate has been formed into a shallow channel, and the roof
panels were shortened in the center and welded to this channel, to form
the entire roof. This raised section in the center serves as a running
board. Similarly the "laterals" are simply diamond tread plate steel.

The Reading roof panels are plain, flat steel sheet. I don't think this
technique would have worked with any of the stamped steel roofs like the
Viking or Standard Railway Equipment roofs.

I wonder if the Reading patented the technique of forming the roof this
way? It certainly appears to be patentable.

Tim O'Connor



I would think that Alan Wood made a number of various products. The products described
by the patents referred to earlier made mention of open slots for drainage and even big
enough to use as emergency handholds.  Such a product would certainly not been suitable
for any sort of weather tight roofing.  An Alan Wood catalog of railway products would
help clarify things at this point.
Chuck Peck


Eric do you know of any photos online of these treadplate lateral roof panels? They sound really weird.
I would think they'd be more susceptible to ice build-up than the raised laterals with holes cut into them.

Tim O'



They were integral least as far as the RDG box and caboose cars were concerned. The running boad wa a separate piece, but if you took it away, there would be a gaping hole down the middle of the roof. Likewise, the end platfrorms were simply roof panels made from diamond plate. Tim would be correct for some RDG covered hopper cars such as LOc. Those running boards are mounted on brackets like any typical running board. Since they are not an integral part of the roof, they have a number of drainage slots.

 
Eric N.


Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Armand Premo
 

As an aside,what color would be a match for Reading Boxcars in the steam era? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 



Eric do you know of any photos online of these treadplate lateral roof panels? They sound really weird.
I would think they'd be more susceptible to ice build-up than the raised laterals with holes cut into them.

Tim O'



They were integral least as far as the RDG box and caboose cars were concerned. The running boad wa a separate piece, but if you took it away, there would be a gaping hole down the middle of the roof. Likewise, the end platfrorms were simply roof panels made from diamond plate. Tim would be correct for some RDG covered hopper cars such as LOc. Those running boards are mounted on brackets like any typical running board. Since they are not an integral part of the roof, they have a number of drainage slots.
 
Eric N.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2014 8:01 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

I don't think the Alan Wood running boards were 'integral' with
the roof, i.e. I don't think they formed part of the roof itself.
Here is the 1940 patent for the Alan Wood box car running boards, which
is perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US2279756
And here is the 1930 patent for the Alan Wood tank car running boards,
also perforated steel tread plate.

http://www.google.com/patents/US1889605
Tim O'Connor

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3986/7808 - Release Date: 07/06/14


Re: Pressed Steel Car

ed_mines
 

They still did last time I was there 20 years ago. Lots of farms right by the bridge to Delaware.

 

Jersey is called "the garden state" and I buy Jersey grown produce in the supermarket (I live in the eastern suburbs of NYC).

 

Ed Mines


Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

Armand Premo
 

    As an aside, what is the best  color match for Reading steam era box cars?.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2014 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Alan wood running boards (was Tread on lateral roof walks)

 


Thanks Eric!

Eric sent me photos of the Reading XMv roof -- Now I am convinced this
is not an Alan Wood 'running board' (a specific product made by Alan Wood)
but is indeed just steel diamond tread plate, a product made by Alan Wood
(and for which they held the patent, as I had said).

The tread plate has been formed into a shallow channel, and the roof
panels were shortened in the center and welded to this channel, to form
the entire roof. This raised section in the center serves as a running
board. Similarly the "laterals" are simply diamond tread plate steel.

The Reading roof panels are plain, flat steel sheet. I don't think this
technique would have worked with any of the stamped steel roofs like the
Viking or Standard Railway Equipment roofs.

I wonder if the Reading patented the technique of forming the roof this
way? It certainly appears to be patentable.

Tim O'Connor



I would think that Alan Wood made a number of various products. The products described
by the patents referred to earlier made mention of open slots for drainage and even big
enough to use as emergency handholds.  Such a product would certainly not been suitable
for any sort of weather tight roofing.  An Alan Wood catalog of railway products would
help clarify things at this point.
Chuck Peck


Eric do you know of any photos online of these treadplate lateral roof panels? They sound really weird.
I would think they'd be more susceptible to ice build-up than the raised laterals with holes cut into them.

Tim O'



They were integral least as far as the RDG box and caboose cars were concerned. The running boad wa a separate piece, but if you took it away, there would be a gaping hole down the middle of the roof. Likewise, the end platfrorms were simply roof panels made from diamond plate. Tim would be correct for some RDG covered hopper cars such as LOc. Those running boards are mounted on brackets like any typical running board. Since they are not an integral part of the roof, they have a number of drainage slots.

 
Eric N.

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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