Date   

Re: PAINT MIX

Geodyssey
 

Makes sense to me.


Robert Simpson




---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :
...

From lengthy past experience, I realize that the comment that I am about to 
make will have about as much chance of acceptance as my request to Union
Pacific that I be allowed to perform engineering duties on the first run of
restored Big Boy 4014 [ interestingly enough I did receive a message
supposedly from UP that I would be allowed to ride the platform located
above the pilot truck...Well...]

Anyhow, believing that 99% of frt cars operating on our layouts should be
weathered and, following Richard's lead, given that the time is between 1900
and 1960, the cars should be rather heavily weathered. Given that, and
suggesting that those nay sayers review the photo on the cover of the May
1992 MM, I would suggest that the paint's apparent color covered with
various amounts of coal smoke, oil smoke, acid rain, non acid rain, and any
of about 53 other types of grime, will vary...even on the same car. IOW, why
worry about an exact match when, after matching, you then slop various
weathering paints or chalks on the poor car which then kind of blends the
whole mess together.

Just a thought.

Mike Brock


Re: {Disarmed} Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Jeff Shultz <jeff@...>
 

I went over and talked to Terry Thompson (who is now the Vice President of Proprietary Products (eg. Cornerstone, Mainline, Trainline, Proto...)) about this car as I took photos of it.

Basically they believe that they have a car that they can make well, not as a kit, sell at a profit, and which wore a ton of paint schemes over the years. I can't say I disagree - even with it being a first generation test shot, and admittedly (actually Terry requested I make sure to mention) missing some of the details and rivets that will be on the final model, it looks like it will be a fine model.
You can see it at: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/18553?page=2#comment-154824 (and if you scroll up you can see the Athearn bi-level autoracks and a few other odds and ends that I had the pleasure of photographing today.



On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 2:54 PM, 'A Premo' armprem2@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Not for me.What I hate are no kits,no paint , no decals,high prices and limited offerings.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NTS Walthers head scratcher?

 


I think Ben's right on the money here -- lower cost RTR cars that can
stand up to some handling is still a valid niche in the market. They're
not kits anymore, so shaking the box doesn't accomplish anything. :-)

I have been watching Ebay auctions and kits and RTR of all kinds are
selling very cheap these days. But I've seen (badly) weathered Athearn
blue box cars sell for $40 or more. If there is one thing customers
hate more than high prices, it is having to actually build their own
models. :-)

Tim O'Connor

>There's still a ready market for shake-the-box kits, and this car and the
>Accurail car model different prototypes. The Accurail car represents cars
>with late R+3/4 improved Dreadnaught ends;
>Ben Hom

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--
Jeff Shultz
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Re: PAINT MIX

Tony Thompson
 

Al Smith wrote:

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol#3 on page 37 has a very good paint color match to Railroad colors using Floquil Scalecoat Accu paint mixes. The chart includes Red Oxides Red browns & Browns. This has been a good starting point for the colors I have mixed up for my fleet.  I have 18 Colors of BCR that I have painted onto a sheet of Evergreen plastic that I use to match existing model paint. The RPC V3 is still available at many shops and on their website.

   Excellent point, Al, thanks for reminding us of this very helpful resource.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PAINT MIX

Allan Smith
 

Railway Prototype Cyclopedia Vol#3 on page 37 has a very good paint color match to Railroad colors using Floquil Scalecoat Accu paint mixes. The chart includes Red Oxides Red browns & Browns. This has been a good starting point for the colors I have mixed up for my fleet.  I have 18 Colors of BCR that I have painted onto a sheet of Evergreen plastic that I use to match existing model paint. The RPC V3 is still available at many shops and on their website.
Al Smith


On Friday, July 18, 2014 11:52 AM, "WILLIAM PARDIE PARDIEW001@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Along with the advencement of proper trucks and RUNNING BOARDS in our hobby is the quality of
many of the offerings of Intermountain and Red Caboose cars. With the exception of some of the
Oxide Red cars most of the Freight Car Red cars seem to have a very uniform shade of BCR. Detailing
the prepainted cars brings up the problem of matgching the color. Has anyone come up with a paint mix
that closely matches this color? Floquil would be acceptable as I have a fairly large stash.

As usual "Thanks in advance":

Bill Pardie



Re: PAINT MIX

Tim O'Connor
 

And just to add another factoid -- Sometimes railroads only repainted
the sides and ends of freight cars, and not the roofs.

I have this lovely shot of PRR's Enola Yard in 1953 and there's a freshly
painted ATSF pre-war AAR box car in the "Grand Canyon" scheme -- and the
car's roof is heavily weathered, with a weathered wood running board!

The photo is great because it shows the ATSF Mineral Red, then Southern's
Box Car Red (close match to Scalecoat -- you can add maroon to an oxide
red color and you'll get something like this), and then Union Pacific's
Oxide Red -- all in a row.

I think it's important when you're modeling to think about WHEN the car
was painted. If it was recently (0 to 3 years) then the initial color is
far more important than if it has been in use for 8 to 10, or more, years.
By then almost anything could happen -- lighter, darker, dust, spills,
rust, scratches, bruises, repairs, patches, ...

Tim O'Connor


Re: PAINT MIX

Mikebrock
 

Tony Thompson writes:

"But, the starting color DOES matter, since color photos from the transition era DO show that adjoining freight cars exhibit varying shades of BCR, notably some you may know yourself, like UP, with a much more orange "Oxide Red" color."

Absolutely. In fact, the rather well known photo I referred to illustates this. Obviously there are quite a few shades of "BCR" in the photo. Perhaps more important is the fact that several C&NW box cars exhibit different BCR colors. Note that I do not say different paints. Clearly, several C&NW cars are much more heavily weathered [ perhaps a better term might be "dirtier" ] than others. And it is possible that one or two may exhibit sun fading [ 15472 for example ]. The book West From Omaha contains quite a few color shots of strings of frt cars. Now I don't claim that the processes of developing and reproducing photos in a book produce exact images of the cars as they existed back in the 50's but the relative comparisons of cars in the SAME photo provides valuable info. For instance, on pg 63 is a very nice photo taken in 1954 of a short train including three UP 40 ft steel box cars. Yep, one of the three's color is much darker than the other two. IMO, it is a bit dirtier than the others but I can still read the lettering. So, just dirtier? I don't have a clue.

And, I cannot resist commenting on the photo on pg 66 which shows 6 red Swift reefers in bright sunlight. Yep, two are much darker than the others but they don't seem significantly dirtier than the other 4.

"Still, I do want to start in the right ballpark."

No argument there...except the ^&^%$#@ ball park apparently changes color sometimes. BTW, one of the more interesting aspects of frt car colors is that of PFE reefers. Tony is, of course, VERY familiar with PFE reefer colors and how long strings of such reefers contain many variations of orange color AND they were decorated with the same Daylight Orange paint. I run several drags of PFE reefers and I nade sure that the cars exhibit different shades of orange color.

Mike Brock


Re: PAINT MIX

Armand Premo
 

Gentlemen both,Weathering is a complex issue.Many colors fade and not just darken.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PAINT MIX

 

Mike Brock wrote:

> Anyhow, believing that 99% of frt cars operating on our layouts should be weathered and, following Richard's lead, given that the time is between 1900 and 1960, the cars should be rather heavily weathered. Given that, and suggesting that those nay sayers review the photo on the cover of the May 1992 MM, I would suggest that the paint's apparent color covered with various amounts of coal smoke, oil smoke, acid rain, non acid rain, and any of about 53 other types of grime, will vary...even on the same car. IOW, why worry about an exact match when, after matching, you then slop various weathering paints or chalks on the poor car which then kind of blends the whole mess together.

You are right, Mike, that Richard would have agreed with most of what you say, and so do I. But. But, the starting color DOES matter, since color photos from the transition era DO show that adjoining freight cars exhibit varying shades of BCR, notably some you may know yourself, like UP, with a much more orange "Oxide Red" color. So yes, weathering mutes and conceals SOME of the differences in car color, but by no means all. I believe it is still worth shooting for a good starting point, even if I find obsession with prototype paint chips to be, in most cases, a "bridge too far" for me. Still, I do want to start in the right ballpark.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Tim O'Connor
 

woah Tom, I just about fell outta my chair!

I went downstairs and got out the digital calipers.

height of side -- (top of side to bottom row of rivets)

1.375 Branchline Yardmaster
1.360 IMWX/Red Caboose

difference = .015" or 1.3" HO scale

So yes it appears the Yardmaster is a tad bit oversize. But not 10'6" IH!

Tim O'Connor

Ben wrote:

"Different prototype too - the Yardmaster car is the 10 ft IH 1937 AAR steel boxcar; the new Walthers car is a postwar AAR boxcar."

Just checked my Yardmasters against the 10'-0" IH IMWX. The Yardmasters are 10'-6" IH with 4-5 dreadnaught ends. Same IH as the Blueprints.

Tom Madden


Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Tom Madden
 

Ben wrote:

"Different prototype too - the Yardmaster car is the 10 ft IH 1937 AAR steel boxcar; the new Walthers car is a postwar AAR boxcar."


Just checked my Yardmasters against the 10'-0" IH IMWX. The Yardmasters are 10'-6" IH with 4-5 dreadnaught ends. Same IH as the Blueprints.


Tom Madden


Re: PAINT MIX

Tony Thompson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

Anyhow, believing that 99% of frt cars operating on our layouts should be weathered and, following Richard's lead, given that the time is between 1900 and 1960, the cars should be rather heavily weathered. Given that, and suggesting that those nay sayers review the photo on the cover of the May 1992 MM, I would suggest that the paint's apparent color covered with various amounts of coal smoke, oil smoke, acid rain, non acid rain, and any of about 53 other types of grime, will vary...even on the same car. IOW, why worry about an exact match when, after matching, you then slop various weathering paints or chalks on the poor car which then kind of blends the whole mess together.

You are right, Mike, that Richard would have agreed with most of what you say, and so do I. But. But, the starting color DOES matter, since color photos from the transition era DO show that adjoining freight cars exhibit varying shades of BCR, notably some you may know yourself, like UP, with a much more orange "Oxide Red" color. So yes, weathering mutes and conceals SOME of the differences in car color, but by no means all. I believe it is still worth shooting for a good starting point, even if I find obsession with prototype paint chips to be, in most cases, a "bridge too far" for me. Still, I do want to start in the right ballpark.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: PAINT MIX

Mikebrock
 

Bruce Smith writes:

"12) Why would they bother? The VAST majority of the folks who buy the models (RTR or Kits) will not make modifications and therefore have no need to know this information."

Not only that:

From lengthy past experience, I realize that the comment that I am about to make will have about as much chance of acceptance as my request to Union Pacific that I be allowed to perform engineering duties on the first run of restored Big Boy 4014 [ interestingly enough I did receive a message supposedly from UP that I would be allowed to ride the platform located above the pilot truck...Well...]

Anyhow, believing that 99% of frt cars operating on our layouts should be weathered and, following Richard's lead, given that the time is between 1900 and 1960, the cars should be rather heavily weathered. Given that, and suggesting that those nay sayers review the photo on the cover of the May 1992 MM, I would suggest that the paint's apparent color covered with various amounts of coal smoke, oil smoke, acid rain, non acid rain, and any of about 53 other types of grime, will vary...even on the same car. IOW, why worry about an exact match when, after matching, you then slop various weathering paints or chalks on the poor car which then kind of blends the whole mess together.

Just a thought.

Mike Brock


Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Armand Premo
 

Not for me.What I hate are no kits,no paint , no decals,high prices and limited offerings.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] NTS Walthers head scratcher?

 


I think Ben's right on the money here -- lower cost RTR cars that can
stand up to some handling is still a valid niche in the market. They're
not kits anymore, so shaking the box doesn't accomplish anything. :-)

I have been watching Ebay auctions and kits and RTR of all kinds are
selling very cheap these days. But I've seen (badly) weathered Athearn
blue box cars sell for $40 or more. If there is one thing customers
hate more than high prices, it is having to actually build their own
models. :-)

Tim O'Connor

>There's still a ready market for shake-the-box kits, and this car and the
>Accurail car model different prototypes. The Accurail car represents cars
>with late R+3/4 improved Dreadnaught ends;
>Ben Hom

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3986/7872 - Release Date: 07/17/14


Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Tim O'Connor
 

I think Ben's right on the money here -- lower cost RTR cars that can
stand up to some handling is still a valid niche in the market. They're
not kits anymore, so shaking the box doesn't accomplish anything. :-)

I have been watching Ebay auctions and kits and RTR of all kinds are
selling very cheap these days. But I've seen (badly) weathered Athearn
blue box cars sell for $40 or more. If there is one thing customers
hate more than high prices, it is having to actually build their own
models. :-)

Tim O'Connor

There's still a ready market for shake-the-box kits, and this car and the
Accurail car model different prototypes. The Accurail car represents cars
with late R+3/4 improved Dreadnaught ends;
Ben Hom


Re: NTS Walthers head scratcher?

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Brian,

Ah, B&O, a road that stuck with the 10" IH through the 1950s. Walthers does it again!

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 7/18/14 11:53 AM, 'Brian Carlson' prrk41361@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Walthers is reportedly doing the following:

Association of American Railroads 40-foot 1944 boxcar. Pre-production concept art shown. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe; Baltimore & Ohio; Canadian National; Canadian Pacific; New York Central; and Northern Pacific. Two road numbers per scheme; also available undecorated. All-new model with 4-4 improved dreadnaught ends, 6-foot Youngstown doors, Murphy panel roof, 10’-6” interior door height, AAR (tab) side sills, 33” metal wheelsets, and Proto-Max couplers. $24.98. January 2015. Ready-to-run. Walthers Mainline. Wm. K. Walthers Inc., 414-527-0770

 

Why would they do this when there are HUNDREDS of Branchline kits still out there for less than the price. Also, says this will be a Mainline car which would have cast on details so they would be competing with Accurail.

 

Brian J. Carlson, P.E.

Cheektowaga, NY

 



Re: Basic Boxcar Decals

Tony Thompson
 

John Hagen wrote:

Even though there a railroad fonts around, the railroads would often change. In particular the "good olde days" the lettering would vary from order to order or even from shop to shop. There wasn't any big, huge printing presses printing big huge vinyl decals. It was all done by sign painters at each location, and different sign painters even at the same locations. While there may have been stencil for the smaller stuff the bigger lettering and logos were often made by laying out the design on paper and then punching many small holes by using a pounce wheel (them things used by modelers to make rows of rivets in a hurry). Then the paper would be taped to the car side and powder puffs were used to put the design on the car with powder. Remove teh paper and teh sign painter would use the powered dots as a guide for the actual paint. Lots of room for variations here. Plus, each run of cars would have new artwork drawn as the chances of one layout being identical to the next project were practically nil.


    This may well be true for some railroads, but for a substantial number of big ones (I can provide specifics for SP and Santa Fe), it is certainly NOT true. For example, SP adopted a set of characters, separately drawn for each size (2 inches high, 3 inches, 6 inches, etc.) and these were in use for DECADES. And they were applied with stencils, as large as need be, not with the pounce wheel method. When Santa Fe had the huge "map" emblems, they made corresponding huge stencils. I have seen a photo of a large Seaboard graphic like for the "Orange Blossom Special," also in the form of a giant stencil. These kinds of lettering did NOT vary from car order to car order, nor did the railroad want them to. That means that you CAN make decals for models for specific railroads, with "standard" lettering for that railroad.
     I don't disagree with the "signpainter" comment, in that each railroad's draftsmen would create the lettering to be used as standard, but it was NOT painted freehand on the car, as a signpainter would do, but was applied with stencils. The major exception I can think of is the billboard reefers, where many variations DID exist, where often a particular lessee might only get a couple of cars, and the elaborate schemes were clearly hand painted in many instances. But that isn't exactly standard railroad practice.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PAINT MIX

Bruce Smith
 

Chuck,

1) How can they tell us a match?  The paint use is not model paint, and is custom mixed for the job.  To identify matches across a wide variety of commercial paints around the world is a huge task!

2) Why would they bother?  The VAST majority of the folks who buy the models (RTR or Kits) will not make modifications and therefore have no need to know this information.

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... [STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2014 2:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PAINT MIX



    My main gripe is that the manufacturer doesn't tell us what paints were used!! OK, so we might have a hard time matching Chinese paint, but they could tell us a match.
Chuck Hladik
 
In a message dated 7/18/2014 3:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Bill Pardie wrote:

Along with the advencement of proper trucks and RUNNING BOARDS in our hobby is the quality of many of the offerings of Intermountain and Red Caboose cars. With the exception of some of the Oxide Red cars most of the Freight Car Red cars seem to have a very uniform shade of BCR. Detailing the prepainted cars brings up the problem of matgching the color. Has anyone come up with a paint mix that closely matches this color? Floquil would be acceptable as I have a fairly large stash.


        Um, not my impression, Bill, though I could be wrong. I recently received an IM 1937 box car which was a fairly brown color (C&O) and have at least two other recent IM box cars, NOT oxide red, which are DIFFERENT shades of BCR. Whether they are doing a good job of prototype paint colors, I don't know, from lack of knowledge of the particular prototypes, but I don't believe they are all the same. I would like to hear from others with views of this topic.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Basic Boxcar Decals

sprinthag@...
 

Vector artwork is better than photographs. I have drawn artwork for silk screen printers and, yes, I drawn it at 200% of the finish scale. Then it is photographed and reduce by 50% to make the screens.

The most important thing is clear, defined edges and the best way to get that is new, vector drawings.

John Hagen


Re: PAINT MIX

Charles Hladik
 

    My main gripe is that the manufacturer doesn't tell us what paints were used!! OK, so we might have a hard time matching Chinese paint, but they could tell us a match.
Chuck Hladik
 

In a message dated 7/18/2014 3:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, STMFC@... writes:
 

Bill Pardie wrote:

Along with the advencement of proper trucks and RUNNING BOARDS in our hobby is the quality of many of the offerings of Intermountain and Red Caboose cars. With the exception of some of the Oxide Red cars most of the Freight Car Red cars seem to have a very uniform shade of BCR. Detailing the prepainted cars brings up the problem of matgching the color. Has anyone come up with a paint mix that closely matches this color? Floquil would be acceptable as I have a fairly large stash.


        Um, not my impression, Bill, though I could be wrong. I recently received an IM 1937 box car which was a fairly brown color (C&O) and have at least two other recent IM box cars, NOT oxide red, which are DIFFERENT shades of BCR. Whether they are doing a good job of prototype paint colors, I don't know, from lack of knowledge of the particular prototypes, but I don't believe they are all the same. I would like to hear from others with views of this topic.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: PAINT MIX

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Pardie wrote:

Along with the advencement of proper trucks and RUNNING BOARDS in our hobby is the quality of many of the offerings of Intermountain and Red Caboose cars. With the exception of some of the Oxide Red cars most of the Freight Car Red cars seem to have a very uniform shade of BCR. Detailing the prepainted cars brings up the problem of matgching the color. Has anyone come up with a paint mix that closely matches this color? Floquil would be acceptable as I have a fairly large stash.


        Um, not my impression, Bill, though I could be wrong. I recently received an IM 1937 box car which was a fairly brown color (C&O) and have at least two other recent IM box cars, NOT oxide red, which are DIFFERENT shades of BCR. Whether they are doing a good job of prototype paint colors, I don't know, from lack of knowledge of the particular prototypes, but I don't believe they are all the same. I would like to hear from others with views of this topic.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Basic Boxcar Decals

sprinthag@...
 

This is the best way to reproduce prototype lettering, logos, etc. This is the method I, and likely most other artwork people, use in order to get proper fonts, etc.

Even though there a railroad fonts around, the railroads would often change. In particular the "good olde days" the lettering would vary from order to order or even from shop to shop. There wasn't any big, huge printing presses printing big huge vinyl decals. It was all done by sign painters at each location, and different sign painters even at the same locations. While there may have been stencil for the smaller stuff the bigger lettering and logos were often made by laying out the design on paper and then punching many small holes by using a pounce wheel (them things used by modelers to make rows of rivets in a hurry). Then the paper would be taped to the car side and powder puffs were used to put the design on the car with powder. Remove teh paper and teh sign painter would use the powered dots as a guide for the actual paint. Lots of room for variations here. Plus, each run of cars would have new artwork drawn as the chances of one layout being identical to the next project were practically nil.

THE best way for getting the correct lettering is through prototype photos. They CAN be manipulated to remove any perspective and resized if any dimension is known. That can be size of any lettering, any dimensions of the car itself and, if all else fails, the rail cars wheels. I often use that; I draw a scale 33" square that is placed over the the most visible wheel (this is all on computer of course) and then get it to fit in the box. From there it is a rather simple matter to square up the side and/or ends of the car.

Do this using Illustrator, CorelDRAW or another vector drawing program and the results can be scaled to what ever scale you want from 1 to 1 all the way to Z.

Oh yes. the idea of finding a commercial font that will match any lettering is not going to happen. Maybe on the small lettering a commercial font will be close and can, with manipulation be pretty close but even then certain letters will have to be redrawn. Even if you find a font for your railroad it will likely be entirely accurate for a limited number of applications. I have downloaded three versions of Railroad Roman and they are all different and generally speaking, eahc will have to br reworked to some extent to match the "Railroad Roman" in whatever photo I am using for a pattern.

The only skills this requires is familiarity with the program being used and lots of patience.

John Hagen

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