Date   

Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

ku0a@...
 

Mike,

Sorry for the delay. I didn't have all the numbers, so I had to wait for an email reply from a club member who had the information.

Maximum grade on the mainline is 2.38%.
Minimum radius on the mainline is 48 inches.
Minimum on branch lines is 36 inches.
Frogs are mostly No. 9 on the mainline and minimum No. 7 elsewhere (turnouts are hand laid in place).
Rail is Code 83 on the mainline, mostly Code 70 in yards and on spurs and branch lines.

I hope this answers your questions.

Nelson Moyer


Free Soo Line decal set

Charlie Duckworth
 

I converted the HO Soo Line 1920 SS boxcar to a NOT&M boxcar. If anyone can use the Soo decals contact me offline. Free!

Charlie Duckworth


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

Anspach Denny <danspachmd@...>
 

This lively subject has a lot of tentacles (or arms and legs); and in the end, there is less science than there is art and judgement in determining ideal roll ability.  

As Jon Miller surmised, I do indeed use a Reboxx Rolltester to test trucks. This is an elevated vertically-curved track segment about 24” long  4” high on each end and about 1” high in the middle.   I simply count the number of times any given truck will roll back and forth -no matter how small the movement- until it stops.  I test each truck  three times, and record the results.. As I test various brands and axle length wheel sets, my own benchmarks (which have served me well) are:

·      Unsatisfactory:            0-5 rolls

·      Poor:                            6-10 rolls

·      Acceptable/Good:       11-15 rolls

·      Very Good:                 16-20 rolls

·      Superior:                     21 and up.

 This is not the only thing that I rely on, however.  

Occasionally, placing a lead weight (from a defunct N gauge diesel) on the truck will alter the rollability, but not often enough to be a routine, nor to be of perceived overall significance..

Sometimes the highest roll ability is only attained by accepting excessive axle end play, an important issue re: wobble, and  -most importantly for me-  creating big time centering/coupling problems with the “scale” couplers common to my rolling stock (Accumates and 150 series Kadees).  In these instances I make note of where the best balance might be. The ideal for me is the highest roll ability and least end play. 

Here are some selected rounded/averaged SAMPLE Rolltester results, wheel set brand and/or axle length or type, and  numbers indicating counted rolls:

Accurail Bettendorf:  OEM  11; Reboxx 1.010 -1.020”  21; NWSL  10; IM 1.012” 20; JayBee 12; Kadee 0.088”  20.

Branchline Barber S-2: OEM 18; Reboxx 1.0

Central Valley Arch Bar: OEM 7; Reboxx 1.025”  10.

Kadee AAR (sprung): OEM 10; Reboxx 1.020” 17.

Kadee Barber S2b (new) : OEM 11; Kadee 0.088” 12; Reboxx 1.020” - 1.025” 12/13

Silver Streak AAR metal: OEM 5; Reboxx 1.045” 12.

Tahoe Dalman two level: OEM N/A; Reboxx 1.005”-1.010”  22/23; IM 1.007” 19; IM 1.012” 21.

Walthers Archbar leaf spring caboose: OEM 6; Reboxx 1.030” 18; 1.035” 12  (the former had excessive end play).

etc. etc. 

Although out of scope for this list, there have been some near-spectacular results with the occasional brass passenger truck, and even  greater results in bringing the venerable still-fine Central Valley three axle passenger trucks back into modern life.

With reference again to the excellent Tahoe trucks, it was Brian Leppart who in a phone call brought to my attention his finding of the unnoted diminished IM axle length, which I subsequently confirmed.

Keep in mind that none of these trucks, nor the wheel sets that we install, are precision instruments or assemblies. If they were, we would not be having this conversation, primarily because not a one of us could afford them.

Denny  


 
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento





Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

midrly
 

Trevor Marshall has been testing Sergent couplers for us.  He models in S scale, but his blog mentions a few problems coupling to them because he found that cars on his layout were TOO free rolling.

More Sergent testing

 



Steve Lucas.


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

midrly
 

Might have been that someone stole the brasses out of the trucks, too, Mike!

This was known to happen to stored cars in our STMFC days.  Train crews and/or carmen would have a look in the journal boxes before lifting stored cars.

Steve Lucas.


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Armand Premo
 

Sorry Mike,try as I might I have been unable to document an O&W hopper ever appearing on any of the three previously mentioned railroads.Now the flat car might be of some interest..Have you tried the LaSalle & Bureau County ?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics


Bruce Smith says:

"Harriman, not Bruceford� unless the car has <GASP> moved?"

Upon further review again, as far as can be determined, only the trucks
remain at Harriman...rusted to the rails. The rest of the car is now
residing at Bruceford on a flat car. As I understand it, the plan is to test
the flat car to see if it satisfies the requirements of Bob Chaparro's club.
In the event that it does not, I think the plan is to see if Armand Primo's
Central Vermont, Rutland, CN or whatever he does up there will take it. Of
course he'll have to provide trucks. We will include the coal load.

Mike Brock










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Yahoo Groups Links




Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Tim O'Connor
 


Not to make fun of Reboxx (or my friend JP) but this is a useless appliance IMO.

For example, a Kato ASF A-3 truck will roll fabulously in this device. Then you
put a car on those trucks, and the results are not so good in my experience. They
(Reboxx) published a spreadsheet of results which does have some value for comparisons
with different trucks and axle lengths.

Tim O'Connor



Someone once made a moon shaped section of track and, when a truck was place on it, you counted the times it went past center.�  This could be a machine for a standard but don't think it's really necessary.�  I think Dr. Denny has one of these things.


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Tim O'Connor
 


    >>  Armand Premo wrote
  >> Which brings up another issue.......................rolling quality.I would like to hear what members of this list do in the
  >> attempt to standardize the  rolling quality of their freight car fleet .

No attempt to "standardize". I simply roll test each car.

I have a sloped, straight test track, 12 feet long -- The first 4-5 feet is a grade and from there it is flat runout.

I let the car go at the top and each 12" is marked off. If the car doesn't make it to the 5 foot mark on its own,
then it's back to the workbench.

Tahoe equipped cars almost always make it to the 7-8 mark and many of them go all the way (12 feet). They
are consistently better than other truck + wheelset combinations.

The new Kadee HGC trucks are also reliable free runners, as are most Proto 2000 trucks. I've had poor
results with Accurail trucks -- even with Reboxx wheels. Not all "Delrin" is alike, it seems.

If you paint your wheels as I do, be careful not to paint the journals. It will cause performance to degrade.
And if you paint or grit blast sideframes, do not paint the interior of the journal boxes. Same thing -- paint
(and/or grit blasting) causes friction.

Tim O'Connor


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Douglas Harding
 

Say it's not so! An icon of the south is to be moved, perhaps even removed
forever, from its sacred resting place. I guess those photos I took years
ago will become treasured memories, artifacts of a past visit, as I may
never again be able to duplicate the experience of seeing the O&W hopper, of
capturing the moment forever on the sensor of my camera. Where are the
historians? Where are the protestors? Where are the preservationists? Should
we call out the National Guard to protect this hallowed icon? How dare some
anonymous corporate executive break the hearts of the true railfan? You can
not ignore us. I say we all descend upon this small hamlet in the near
future to let our feelings be known. How's January sound for everyone? Mike
is good for the cookies.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Wheel Rolling Needs

mrprksr <mrprksr@...>
 

This is kinda like comparing Apples to Oranges.....HO cars do not have the mass to roll like prototypes....I'm all for free rolling cars...but HO grades don't really compare with the real ones....I used to have trouble spotting cars when I worked on bad track with dips at rail joints....We would have to put a stinger on (handbrake) just to spot the car.   One thing a free rolling HO car will do is show you that your layout isn't as level as you think it is!!   Larry Mennie
On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 11:51 AM, "'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Nelson Moyer writes:

"The club to which I belong has standards for wheels, trucks, detection,
couplers, weight,, rollability, and center of gravity."

Just out of curiousity, what is the minimum radius on curves, minimum frog
size, and maximum grade on your club? 2.5% is a rather significant grade
with very few RR grades exceeding that. Off the top, Saluda's short 3 mile
stretch with a max of 5.1%, mostly 4.7% is the greatest but rather obscure.
The 2.2% of the B&O was, I believe, considered to be a "yardstick" for new
rr's being built out west during westword expansion. It is noteworthy that
N&W had a max of 1.4% on their east/west Christiansburg/Roanoke/Blue Ridge
line, UP did not exceed 1.55% on its Wyoming line, and the WP Feather River
line was 1%.

There is, of course Raton and Donner but...

BTW, I should mention that I have a 1.5% grade of about 80 feet [ all
hidden ] which leads into my Laramie yard. Every now and then a coupler will
fail and I hear the sound of many metal wheels in motion heading for Laramie
so, I guess, the wheels roll freely enough. I do have to make sure the
runaway has a place to go in Laramie. Incidentally, there was a runaway on
the real Sherman Hill back during our time period. A 4-8-4 sitting idle up
on the hill, sans crew, decided to roll back down into Cheyenne. Now, you'd
think that there would have been time to alert a switcher working the west
end of Cheyenne, but, alas, there was not. The 4-8-4 was estimated to be
traveling at 80 mph or more when it hit the switcher.

Mike Brock




Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Bill Schneider
 

Mike Brock commented: "We will include the coal load."

Which begs the question - Why? After all these years sitting under the
coaling tower did they finally decide that it was too good for those big,
black sooty things that you run... or try to? ;>)

Bill Schneider


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Mikebrock
 

Bruce Smith says:

"Harriman, not Bruceford� unless the car has <GASP> moved?"

Upon further review again, as far as can be determined, only the trucks remain at Harriman...rusted to the rails. The rest of the car is now residing at Bruceford on a flat car. As I understand it, the plan is to test the flat car to see if it satisfies the requirements of Bob Chaparro's club. In the event that it does not, I think the plan is to see if Armand Primo's Central Vermont, Rutland, CN or whatever he does up there will take it. Of course he'll have to provide trucks. We will include the coal load.

Mike Brock


Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Bill Schneider
 

Not likely….

 

Bill Schneider

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 9, 2014 12:09 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

 

 

Mike,

 

Harriman, not Bruceford… unless the car has moved?

 

Regards

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

 

On Sep 9, 2014, at 11:01 AM, 'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bob Chaparro writes:

"Some club respondents mentioned that lower percentages sometimes cause
unintended car movements on seemingly “level’ yard tracks and sidings, which
was a problem, of course."

I guess your club wouldn't be interested in acquiring the rather infamous
O&W hopper still residing at Bruceford, WY. The grade on the coal car track
at the coaling tower is about 8%. We used to place a tie next to the rear
wheel to keep the car from rolling back down to the main but one day a track
crew used the tie. The car didn't budge. Upon futher review it was
discovered that the wheels had rusted to the rails.

Mike Brock





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Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

ku0a@...
 

Bruce,

Actually, the length of the grade is implied by the statement that the car must spontaneously start and roll for at least one car length. The standard states 2.5% or LESS, and the implication is that spontaneous roll will occur for one car length on any grade. This means that the grade need only be approximately twice the length of the longest car to be tested, and that flat track must be flat (0% grade).

The club wrote the standard, so the club is free to interpret the standard however they choose so long as they are consistent.

 Nelson Moyer


----- Original Message -----
From: 'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 11:05:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels









 







Nelson,


Not to be picky, but that is not the way I read the standard.  In fact, the car could be a “lead sled” on a grade of 1%, just so long as it starts rolling at or before the grade getting to 2.5%.

BTW, the length of the grade is not specified so the standard is missing an important component ;)

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith  

         

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 9, 2014, at 9:36 AM, ku0a@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
1.   Rolling stock (excluding locomotives and other track powered equipment) must initiate spontaneous motion on a grade of 2.5

% or LESS
 and have a  smooth, steady, uninterrupted roll for at least

one full car body length.

The grade specification means that a car will roll spontaneously on any grade. Tahoe Model Works trucks readily meet this specification, while Kadee and Walthers trucks may or may not meet the

specification depending upon the wheel sets used.



Nelson Moyer






Re: O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Bruce Smith
 

Mike,

Harriman, not Bruceford… unless the car has moved?

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 9, 2014, at 11:01 AM, 'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Bob Chaparro writes:

"Some club respondents mentioned that lower percentages sometimes cause
unintended car movements on seemingly “level’ yard tracks and sidings, which
was a problem, of course."

I guess your club wouldn't be interested in acquiring the rather infamous
O&W hopper still residing at Bruceford, WY. The grade on the coal car track
at the coaling tower is about 8%. We used to place a tie next to the rear
wheel to keep the car from rolling back down to the main but one day a track
crew used the tie. The car didn't budge. Upon futher review it was
discovered that the wheels had rusted to the rails.

Mike Brock





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Posted by: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
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Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Bruce Smith
 

Nelson,

Not to be picky, but that is not the way I read the standard.  In fact, the car could be a “lead sled” on a grade of 1%, just so long as it starts rolling at or before the grade getting to 2.5%.

BTW, the length of the grade is not specified so the standard is missing an important component ;)

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 9, 2014, at 9:36 AM, ku0a@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

1.   Rolling stock (excluding locomotives and other track powered equipment) must initiate spontaneous motion on a grade of 2.5 % or LESS and have a  smooth, steady, uninterrupted roll for at least one full car body length.

The grade specification means that a car will roll spontaneously on any grade. Tahoe Model Works trucks readily meet this specification, while Kadee and Walthers trucks may or may not meet the specification depending upon the wheel sets used.

Nelson Moyer


O&W Hopper Rolling Characteristics

Mikebrock
 

Bob Chaparro writes:

"Some club respondents mentioned that lower percentages sometimes cause unintended car movements on seemingly “level’ yard tracks and sidings, which was a problem, of course."

I guess your club wouldn't be interested in acquiring the rather infamous O&W hopper still residing at Bruceford, WY. The grade on the coal car track at the coaling tower is about 8%. We used to place a tie next to the rear wheel to keep the car from rolling back down to the main but one day a track crew used the tie. The car didn't budge. Upon futher review it was discovered that the wheels had rusted to the rails.

Mike Brock


Wheel Rolling Needs

Mikebrock
 

Nelson Moyer writes:

"The club to which I belong has standards for wheels, trucks, detection, couplers, weight,, rollability, and center of gravity."

Just out of curiousity, what is the minimum radius on curves, minimum frog size, and maximum grade on your club? 2.5% is a rather significant grade with very few RR grades exceeding that. Off the top, Saluda's short 3 mile stretch with a max of 5.1%, mostly 4.7% is the greatest but rather obscure. The 2.2% of the B&O was, I believe, considered to be a "yardstick" for new rr's being built out west during westword expansion. It is noteworthy that N&W had a max of 1.4% on their east/west Christiansburg/Roanoke/Blue Ridge line, UP did not exceed 1.55% on its Wyoming line, and the WP Feather River line was 1%.

There is, of course Raton and Donner but...

BTW, I should mention that I have a 1.5% grade of about 80 feet [ all hidden ] which leads into my Laramie yard. Every now and then a coupler will fail and I hear the sound of many metal wheels in motion heading for Laramie so, I guess, the wheels roll freely enough. I do have to make sure the runaway has a place to go in Laramie. Incidentally, there was a runaway on the real Sherman Hill back during our time period. A 4-8-4 sitting idle up on the hill, sans crew, decided to roll back down into Cheyenne. Now, you'd think that there would have been time to alert a switcher working the west end of Cheyenne, but, alas, there was not. The 4-8-4 was estimated to be traveling at 80 mph or more when it hit the switcher.

Mike Brock


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels (Rollability)

thecitrusbelt@...
 

A few years ago my HO scale module club wanted to establish formal rolling stock standards so I survey a large number of fixed-base and module clubs to get the best practices from each. 

 

Based on responses from over four dozen clubs plus information available on club websites I found most of these groups used a standard similar or identical to what Nelson Moyer mentioned: Rolling stock…must initiate spontaneous motion on a grade of 2.5 % or LESS and have a smooth, steady, uninterrupted roll for at least one full car body length.

 

The one thing that varied was the percentage, which ranged from 1.5 percent to 2.5 percent.  Some club respondents mentioned that lower percentages sometimes cause unintended car movements on seemingly “level’ yard tracks and sidings, which was a problem, of course.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Re: Tahoe trucks w/ semiscale wheels

Benjamin Hom
 

Armand Premo asked:
"Getting back to "rollability". and trying to set a standard, what test or tests do individuals use?"

Jon Miller replied:


"Someone once made a moon shaped section of track and, when a truck was place on it, you counted the times it went past center. This could be a machine for a standard but don't think it's really necessary. I think Dr. Denny has one of these things."
Reboxx Roll Tester:
http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm#RollTester


Ben Hom

69101 - 69120 of 196818