Date   

Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Alexander Schneider Jr
 

Other than home road hoppers, what roads would be appropriate on NYC rails in western Michigan, circa 1952? And would there be a distinction between loads to an electric generating plant, to a coaling tower, and to a coal yard for domestic use? Would 70 ton hoppers be more or less appropriate to any of these destinations?
  • PRR
  • B&O
  • C&O
  • N&W
  • VGN
  • Monon
  • C&EI
  • Wabash
  • IC
  • CB&Q
  • MP
Thanks in advance.

Alex Schneider

From: "'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a
comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to
find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype
Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in
again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting
that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by
the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado
RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion
pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly
[ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and
let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those
trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably
because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross
well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a
long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see
below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes
bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was
a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when
the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving
over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all
18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let
people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611
come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run
by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock





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Posted by: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
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Re: Hoppers out west

Bruce Smith
 

Tom,

I don’t think that news to many folks here <G>.  We have had many a discussion where the off-line presence of stock cars and reasons for off-line traffic in stock cars has been discussed.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Nov 17, 2014, at 8:55 AM, tyesac@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



And the same truisms seem to apply to stock cars that "never ran off line".  That Clinfield hopper is siting on a track that, based on photos, was used for interchange setouts/pick-ups.  Pennsy & C&EI crossed and the nearby diamond.
 
Tom Casey    
As has been pointed out in duplicate, hopper cars did travel onto foreign 
roads...often at significant distances...but seldom in significant numbers. 


Re: Hoppers out west

tyesac@...
 

And the same truisms seem to apply to stock cars that "never ran off line".  That Clinfield hopper is siting on a track that, based on photos, was used for interchange setouts/pick-ups.  Pennsy & C&EI crossed and the nearby diamond.
 
Tom Casey   
As has been pointed out in duplicate, hopper cars did travel onto foreign
roads...often at significant distances...but seldom in significant numbers.



-----Original Message-----
From: 'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC Sent: Sat, Nov 15, 2014 9:35 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Hoppers out west

 
As has been pointed out in duplicate, hopper cars did travel onto foreign
roads...often at significant distances...but seldom in significant numbers.
Of course, I only refer to eastern hoppers traveling out west [ in this
case, west of Denver. I have concluded that whoever said "The West starts at
Fort Worth" was wrong ]. Certainly the major coal carrying RR's like N&W,
C&O and Pennsy carried coal to Newcast...ooops, off line [ think the Great
Lake ports ].In fact, one of my favorite eastern hopper car photos is a
color shot of a B&O train filled with MT hopper cars heading back to West By
God Va. In the train is a lone MP 2 bay. Which reminds that MP is the one RR
that seemed not to care where its hoppers went. The ATSF Historical
Society's The War Bonnet has a photo of a string of MP hoppers in CA and,
another string shows up in the UPHS' The Streamliner serving a mine in Utah.
And, of course, there are several shots of MP hoppers in Laramie. In the
video The Big Boy Collection we see both a C&IM and an Illinois Central 2
bay hopper rolling up Sherman Hill but only one of each. Given the numbers
of cars and the fact that only these two show their faces, no, I don't have
even one of each.

Mike Brock


Re: Southern Pacific weigh station initials

paul.doggett2472@...
 

Ben


       Thank you I cannot open the files as i do not have micro soft office on my computer it tells me i have do have it but i cannot activate it and i don't particularly want to buy it again it came with the computer but i have had so many problems with the thing i dont feel inclined to spend any more on the it.


Paul doggett


Re: Southern Pacific weigh station initials

Benjamin Hom
 

Paul Doggett asked:
"Can any one help with Southern Pacific weigh station initials particularly the ones outside of California."

Did you check the group files section for that spreadsheet I recommended last week when you asked your last reweigh question?

Not trying to be a douchebag, but I'm trying to teach you how to fish.


Ben Hom


Re: Measuring mission

 

Bill – You may have a ghost of a chance. – Al Westerfield
 

Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Measuring mission
 
 

If anyone lives near the Indiana Transportation Museum http://itm.org , or knows anyone else that dies, and can get access to the rolling stock **hopefully before it all gets too cold** and possibly snowed in -  please contact me. Maybe you volunteer there. I have a component that that I need measured. You will be not crawling under anything dirty. This item is very accessible & should not take more than a few minutes to measure and sketch

Please contact me directly. bill@...

Thank You,
Bill Lane

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy & PRSL in 1957 in S Scale since 1987

See my finished models at:
http://www.lanestrains.com
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale!

See my layout progress at:

http://www.lanestrains.com/My_Layout.htm

Custom Train Parts Design & 3D Printing
http://www.3dmodeltech.com

PRR Builders Photos Bought, Sold & Traded
(Trading is MUCH preferred)
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRphotos.xls 

***Join the PRR T&HS***
The other members are not ALL like me!
http://www.prrths.com
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRTHS_Application.pdf

Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join! http://www.prslhs.com 
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL


Southern Pacific weigh station initials

paul.doggett2472@...
 

Hi Guys

 Can any one help with Southern Pacific weigh station initials particularly the ones outside of California.


Thank you Paul Doggett UK


Re: Help with P2k UTLX Tank Car?

rob.mclear3@...
 

Hi Folks

I have been thinking a lot about what Dave Parker said below and we certainly do miss Richard, I know that I had him as a mentor in conversations by phone and over the internet for the last few years.   I therefore have a lot of pearls of wisdom that Richard sent to me over time and I was wondering if others have had the same experience.   Would it be possible for us to set up a storehouse or database of stuff that Richard sent out, I for one could contribute some things and I am pretty sure there would be others out there who could do the same.

I don't know whether or not this would work or whether or not there is any enthusiasm for the idea but it would be handy to have the information that Richard sent out both to the list in general and to individuals all located in one place.   Just a thought.

Rob McLear.




T

It's a recurring theme I know, but it seems like we get a daily reminder about the loss of   Richard's astonishing storehouse of knowledge.

Thanks,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car/Victor Chemical

rwilson1056
 

would that be the Victor Chemical in Florida just north of Tarpon Springs? I believe it used Phosphate ore out of the Bone Valley to produce Elemental phosphorus or some other phosphorus based chemical... was it served by the ACL or SAL?


Car lists and movies of complete trains

Mikebrock
 

I said:

"A movie of a complete train is just
one more data sample."

I should have added that such movies provide a "wow" effect that a list of cars does not. One can perhaps be satisfied to know that a model of a train duplicates the consist of a real one, say, 60 yrs ago. It is another thing to compare the visual image of a real train to the model. Does the model do the real one justice? It isn't every day that one sees a 100+ car steam era frt train. BTW, the video, Hooters on Blue Ridge also provides visual impact of long frt trains, in this case N&W, with BTW, actual sounds of the passing trains.

Mike Brock


fifth sale of Hendrickson kits

Tony Thompson
 

Just a reminder that the deadline for bids will be noon, Pacific time, on Monday, November 17. I will notify winning bidders promptly with payment instructions. If you do not hear from me by 3 PM Pacific time on November 17, 2014, you were not the successful bidder. If you did not receive or cannot find the list of kits in this batch, please request it OFF LIST and I will be happy to send it to you.

Tony Thompson
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; e-mail: tony@signaturepress.com


Re: Help with P2k UTLX Tank Car?

Dave Parker
 

Thanks Steve.  You are of course correct that 60350 should be an insulated car (it's TMI in the 1935 OERE).  I had a brain cramp when I rechecked the OERE today.

Based on Richard's article, I think this car would best numbered in the 56000 series.  He wrote that many/most of the used ACF 10kgal cars purchased by Union were "scattered" throughout that series. 

Thanks for the tip on the X-Z designation.  I had not seen that before. (And my comment about XM was a SECOND brain cramp.; I meant of course TM).

Looks like I will need to do some re-lettering on this one.  The 1947 reweigh date is too late for me anyway.

It's a recurring theme I know, but it seems like we get a daily reminder about the loss of   Richard's astonishing storehouse of knowledge.

Thanks,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Mikebrock
 

Armand Premo says:

"While a movie of a single train,on a given day may be of some value.There are too many variables involved in detemining such things as car count or regular consists."

Well, from studying my Fraley Frt Conductor's book, I would say that "regular consists" [ not certain exactly what that means ] probably doesn't apply to UP's Sherman Hill since there are a significant variety of different types of trains [ as identified by consist ]. IOW, there are reefer blocks, coal drags, lumber trains, tank car trains, ballast trains, ore trains, general merchandise trains, and MT car trains often with the same type of cars as the loaded trains. A movie of a complete train is just one more data sample.

Mike Brock


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

devansprr
 

Mike,

Now I am very jealous - to my knowledge there are very few known WWII era freight train consists for PRR Pittsburgh Division, nor movies of entire freight trains.

And I am very reluctant to infer much from the very few WWII photographs that exist after thinking for years that I needed enough steam engines to double-head every freight... Especially after all of the well documented summary statistics about record traffic levels.

Sigh...
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not
an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use
their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some
validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we
modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for
TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power
and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected,
the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [
unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes
every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt
Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Measuring mission

Bill Lane
 

If anyone lives near the Indiana Transportation Museum http://itm.org , or knows anyone else that dies, and can get access to the rolling stock **hopefully before it all gets too cold** and possibly snowed in -  please contact me. Maybe you volunteer there. I have a component that that I need measured. You will be not crawling under anything dirty. This item is very accessible & should not take more than a few minutes to measure and sketch

 

Please contact me directly. bill@...

 

Thank You,
Bill Lane

Modeling the Mighty Pennsy & PRSL in 1957 in S Scale since 1987

See my finished models at:
http://www.lanestrains.com
Look at what has been made in PRR in S Scale!

 

See my layout progress at:

http://www.lanestrains.com/My_Layout.htm

Custom Train Parts Design & 3D Printing
http://www.3dmodeltech.com

PRR Builders Photos Bought, Sold & Traded
(Trading is MUCH preferred)
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRphotos.xls 

***Join the PRR T&HS***
The other members are not ALL like me!
http://www.prrths.com
http://www.lanestrains.com/PRRTHS_Application.pdf

Join the Pennsylvania Reading Seashore Lines Historical Society
It's FREE to join! http://www.prslhs.com 
Preserving The Memory Of The PRSL

 


Re: Help with P2k UTLX Tank Car?

Steve and Barb Hile
 

I know that Richard Hendrickson consulted with Life Like on their Proto 2000 tank cars, so I would be somewhat confident about the numbering and lettering.  But…

 

The car would definitely not be an X-3.  That was the UTLX design.  On the end, where X-3 is, it should be a letter Z.  That was UTLX’s designation for cars that were not its own design.  (XM is, of course, a boxcar.)

 

The other problem is that cars in the 60000 series were, generally, insulated.  So, according to a 1952 listing of UTLX cars, which Richard provided to me, years ago

 

60350 was a class Z car with a 10000 gallon capacity, but it was also insulated, which the P2k car is not.

 

I hope that this is useful information.

 

Regards,

Steve Hile

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 3:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Help with P2k UTLX Tank Car?

 

 

I recently purchased an older Life-Like P2000 kit for an ACF Type 21, 10kgal car.  It is pre-lettered as UTLX 60350.  The number seems quite plausible based on the 1930 and 1935 OEREs, and on Union's propensity for buying up other fleets in that time-frame.

What surprised me is that "X-3" is stenciled on both ends.  I was under the impression that UTLX would have only have put this on their unique cars of that designation.  But, my general impression has also been that the P2000 cars are assiduously researched.

Can anybody help?  Should I paint out the "X-3" (or perhaps convert it to XM)?

Thanks in advance.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

 


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Thanks Tim 

I probably didn't express this well enough. Since N&W didn't serve this area and there's quite a string of N&W cars, this seems on first blush to be a movement of coal from one coal producing region into another coal region. I found it hard to imagine that plain old heating coal would make such a trip due to the cost of transporting it all that way.
      
Assuming for the moment that these loads originated on the N&W coal fields in SW Virginia the routing seems odd as well - shipping the loads via Atlanta seems to be a rather circuitous trip

Aidrian


>>There are many locations in coal country where loaded coal trains travel
in both directions. I think it often is related simply to who bought it from
whom, and has nothing to do with the qualities of the coal.



Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Armand Premo
 


While a movie of a single train,on a given day may be of some value.There are too many variables involved  in detemining such things as car count or regular consists.This has been discussed before on this list.Let us think of some of the variables:A specific train during different time of the year,Other trains on the same road may vary widely from the train previously mentioned by our esteem leader.Wheel reports and company records would be much more valuable in determ[ing  the cars a typical train.Unless you plan to run the same cars over and over.Armand Premo Fire away

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not
an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use
their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some
validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we
modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for
TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power
and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected,
the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [
unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes
every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt
Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Tony Thompson
 

      It's long been claimed (usually by those who don't like the results) that photography is untrustworthy because photographers preferred the unusual. I think this is far too broad a generalization about photographers. For one thing, many were really photographing locomotives, and whatever cars we see in the trains in those images were NOT selected by that photographer in most cases. Further, many people (Will Whittaker, Chet McCoid and George Sisk come to mind) liked to photograph all kinds of freight cars when they got a good shot at one. Will once told me that he liked to get a nice, well-lit shot of ANY freight car, and his photos confirm that MANY were everyday, dirty, ordinary freight cars. The same is true of McCoid.
       Of course photos have limitations as data, because so few cars are in any one shot. But that doesn't make that little data sample wrong, just one which has to be used cautiously. One might wish that more of us were cautious with all kinds of data.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Tony Thompson
 

Allen Rueter wrote:

 
Tony,
   I always thought the most important attribute of Met. Coal was its caking structure that remains when baked into coke.

     The coke needs to break up cleanly after processing, and any "stickiness" or structure would be bad. But the broken coke needs some strength or structural capability so that it doesn't fragment or powder during insertion into the blast furnace, nor in the upper part of the descending mass of iron ore, limestone and coke in the furnace. At times in the steelmaking world, low-sulfur coal was also desirable, to keep sulfur out of the iron, but whether that is important depends on the type of steel to be made later from that iron.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




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