Date   

Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 

Thanks Tim 

I probably didn't express this well enough. Since N&W didn't serve this area and there's quite a string of N&W cars, this seems on first blush to be a movement of coal from one coal producing region into another coal region. I found it hard to imagine that plain old heating coal would make such a trip due to the cost of transporting it all that way.
      
Assuming for the moment that these loads originated on the N&W coal fields in SW Virginia the routing seems odd as well - shipping the loads via Atlanta seems to be a rather circuitous trip

Aidrian


>>There are many locations in coal country where loaded coal trains travel
in both directions. I think it often is related simply to who bought it from
whom, and has nothing to do with the qualities of the coal.



Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Armand Premo
 


While a movie of a single train,on a given day may be of some value.There are too many variables involved  in detemining such things as car count or regular consists.This has been discussed before on this list.Let us think of some of the variables:A specific train during different time of the year,Other trains on the same road may vary widely from the train previously mentioned by our esteem leader.Wheel reports and company records would be much more valuable in determ[ing  the cars a typical train.Unless you plan to run the same cars over and over.Armand Premo Fire away

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not
an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use
their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some
validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we
modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for
TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power
and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected,
the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [
unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes
every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt
Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Tony Thompson
 

      It's long been claimed (usually by those who don't like the results) that photography is untrustworthy because photographers preferred the unusual. I think this is far too broad a generalization about photographers. For one thing, many were really photographing locomotives, and whatever cars we see in the trains in those images were NOT selected by that photographer in most cases. Further, many people (Will Whittaker, Chet McCoid and George Sisk come to mind) liked to photograph all kinds of freight cars when they got a good shot at one. Will once told me that he liked to get a nice, well-lit shot of ANY freight car, and his photos confirm that MANY were everyday, dirty, ordinary freight cars. The same is true of McCoid.
       Of course photos have limitations as data, because so few cars are in any one shot. But that doesn't make that little data sample wrong, just one which has to be used cautiously. One might wish that more of us were cautious with all kinds of data.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Tony Thompson
 

Allen Rueter wrote:

 
Tony,
   I always thought the most important attribute of Met. Coal was its caking structure that remains when baked into coke.

     The coke needs to break up cleanly after processing, and any "stickiness" or structure would be bad. But the broken coke needs some strength or structural capability so that it doesn't fragment or powder during insertion into the blast furnace, nor in the upper part of the descending mass of iron ore, limestone and coke in the furnace. At times in the steelmaking world, low-sulfur coal was also desirable, to keep sulfur out of the iron, but whether that is important depends on the type of steel to be made later from that iron.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Mikebrock
 

Dave Evans writes:

"I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual."

Others have voiced this point and it probably has some validity...particularly with a photo of a single car. OTOH, we modeler/historians are blessed because NBC [ I think ] produced a movie for TV [ can't recall the title ] involving a UP engineer favoring steam power and his son who thought diesels [ ugh ] were better. As might be expected, the film producer filmed entire trains rolling by the photographer [ unfortunately in black and white ] which means the film they shot includes every car in 100+ long trains. The footage is in The Big Boy Collection bt Pentrex.

Mike Brock


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Allen Rueter
 

Tony,
   I always thought the most important attribute of Met. Coal was its caking structure that remains when baked into coke.
 
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


From: "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 
Is that also called metallurgical coal? I know that "met coal" off the Southern was shipped as far as Colorado & Utah -- Southern Railway hoppers in Pueblo CO were not at all unusual in the 1960's and such cars were a common sight in Provo UT in the 1980's-2000's (the only times I visited that area)

      "Met coal" is primarily distinguished by low tar content, so that it makes coke nicely.HIgh BTU is good too.

>And blacksmiths tell me that Pocahontas coal is preferred for forges by many in the trade. Another reason to have the odd off-road hopper going around, although some small forges bought bagged Pocahontas.

    This likely is related to BTU content, not so much the coking potential, though in a small forge I think both affect performance.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Hoppers out west

Allen Rueter
 

The GN/WP Yard book for Bieber Oct 47 shows the following east of the Continental divide roads:
1 PLE HM 37000 38418
1 SLSF HM 86000 89499
1 MP HM 58750 60949
1 LN HM 75000 75999
1 IC HM 90000 90999
1 DLW HM 85500 86499
1 MI HT 6200 6249
1 SOU HM 107500 109999
2 MP HT 63000 64199
1 NW HT 78000 79499
1 SOU HM 104500 105949
1 PLE HM 38500 39499
2 MP HM 58000 58749
2 MP HT 55500 56499
 So you need an eastern foreign hopper about every other day ;)
The price would be steep, $10/100lbs or ton? from Illinois to Wyoming form a tariff I saw once.
--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


From: "'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 9:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Hoppers out west

 
As has been pointed out in duplicate, hopper cars did travel onto foreign
roads...often at significant distances...but seldom in significant numbers.
Of course, I only refer to eastern hoppers traveling out west [ in this
case, west of Denver. I have concluded that whoever said "The West starts at
Fort Worth" was wrong ]. Certainly the major coal carrying RR's like N&W,
C&O and Pennsy carried coal to Newcast...ooops, off line [ think the Great
Lake ports ].In fact, one of my favorite eastern hopper car photos is a
color shot of a B&O train filled with MT hopper cars heading back to West By
God Va. In the train is a lone MP 2 bay. Which reminds that MP is the one RR
that seemed not to care where its hoppers went. The ATSF Historical
Society's The War Bonnet has a photo of a string of MP hoppers in CA and,
another string shows up in the UPHS' The Streamliner serving a mine in Utah.
And, of course, there are several shots of MP hoppers in Laramie. In the
video The Big Boy Collection we see both a C&IM and an Illinois Central 2
bay hopper rolling up Sherman Hill but only one of each. Given the numbers
of cars and the fact that only these two show their faces, no, I don't have
even one of each.

Mike Brock




Help with P2k UTLX Tank Car?

Dave Parker
 

I recently purchased an older Life-Like P2000 kit for an ACF Type 21, 10kgal car.  It is pre-lettered as UTLX 60350.  The number seems quite plausible based on the 1930 and 1935 OEREs, and on Union's propensity for buying up other fleets in that time-frame.

What surprised me is that "X-3" is stenciled on both ends.  I was under the impression that UTLX would have only have put this on their unique cars of that designation.  But, my general impression has also been that the P2000 cars are assiduously researched.

Can anybody help?  Should I paint out the "X-3" (or perhaps convert it to XM)?

Thanks in advance.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

devansprr
 

Mike,

You are raising a valid concern about car movements based on photos.

I expect this is era dependent, but through WWII, film photography was not an inexpensive hobby, and one would expect photographers to be biased to use their limited supply of film on the unusual, not the usual.

Naturally it is hard to determine the intent of the photographer 70+ years later. I am coming to the position that photos of rolling stock out on the road that document just a few cars are likely because they were an unusual sight. Conversely, broader shots may be more of a railfan shot not focused on individual cars, but even then the representation can be quite biased based on a freight train's origin, destination, and blocking.

Case on point, if someone had told you that they saw 100 PRR hoppers west bound on Sherman Hill over the period of the day, you may need to buy some. But given that they were in one train - never-mind. We have an equivalent problem on the PRR - people claim that solid trains of Virginian coal hoppers, including the 100-ton cars with 6 wheel trucks, were spotted on the PRR main during WWII. Was that a regular event? Based on some WWII transportation histories, it may have happened a few times because a lot of Pocahontas coal was shipped by rail to New England during WWII. Most of it ran up the NE corridor to NY harbor, where it could be barged up the coast - but some did make the entire trip by rail, and there were times when the NE corridor was too congested, so routes further west were used - infrequently. Should I buy a full train of Virginian hoppers - no, although the purchase would be more justified than you buying a train of PRR hoppers...)

The latest discovery for me that clearly discounts photographs was from a 1945 PRR Pittsburgh division traffic study that details every train for a day. There are LOTs of pre-war, and even some WWII photos of steam on that division, many of WB trains heading up the "east slope" that includes horseshoe curve. From all the published photos, one would expect nearly all trains were double-headed, with another pair of locomotives pushing. Yet every one of the 58 WB freights cresting the summit that day were single headed. All had pushers - based on tonnages the vast majority would have been two pushers, which does match the photos...

Makes one wonder if photographers of that era (especially railfans, compared to people like Delano), with a limited supply of expensive film, photographed the exceptional.

While film in the digital age is free, scanning YouTube videos of modern railroading exhibits a similar tendency (one might think that fully 1/4 of the NS diesel fleet are heritage units...).

Inferences derived from old railfan photos really need to be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism..

(and so much for double headed steam on the curve ;-(

And the lack of NYCentral box cars in WB PRR freights over that same division does not mean WB NYCentral traffic was intentionally routed over other RR's - it is because over 2/3rds of WB non-hopper cars on that division were empty, and why would the PRR, east of Harrisburg, route an MTY NYCentral car to the west?

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <brockm@...> wrote :

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a
comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to
find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype
Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in
again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting
that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by
the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado
RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion
pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly
[ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and
let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those
trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably
because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross
well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a
long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see
below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes
bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was
a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when
the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving
over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all
18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let
people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611
come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run
by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock


Re: Tangent Scale Models Acid Tank Car

Chuck Soule
 

>  Additionally Michael, for your Montana interests, I believe Victor
>  Chemical / Stauffer had a facility that produced phosphoric acid in
> Silver Bow MT, which was reciprocal UP/NP I believe.

> David Lehlbach
> Tangent Scale Models

> Yes it did. I think it also may have generated elemental phosphorus as
> well.

> Michael Seitz
> Missoula MT

The components needed were very close to Silver Bow.  Sulfuric acid from the Anaconda smelter and phosphate rock.  The NP operated a mine just about fourmiles north of Garrison.  Today the freeway exit calls it Phosphate, although to us hard core NP fans, it is the location of the Last Spike ceremony in 1883.

Earlier, I mentioned the Stauffer chlorine plant in Tacoma.  It was originally a Penn Salt plant that Stauffer took over at some point.  By the era of the Tangent model, tank cars would have been painted for Stauffer.

Chuck Soule
Gig Harbor, WA


Re: we all know hoppers don't travel right?

Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
 

As as West Coast type, the coal hoppers I'm confident of are two far-from-home ones with photo documentation: i.e.
- DT&I 1437 in Tracy CA, Oct 1948 (Gene Deiming photo)
- L&N 64311 all alone in the Los Angeles (Colton?) yard with a high-heaped load... late 1950s

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Charles Peck
 

And those traffic patterns change with time. The L&N  Eastern Kentucky division was built and operated for years as loads north. Coal destined for Great Lakes and northeast, both via
the PRR at Cincinnati.  Times changed. The Rust Belt emerged from our industrial heartland. The south grew and built many new power plants to keep the air conditioning going.
The L&N had to adapt to shipping coal south instead of north.  It wasn't easy. Not like throwing a switch.  This was mountain railroading.  Change came to helper districts. 
The railroad tried early forms of radio controlled midtrain power.  Sidings had to be changed and relocated.  Quite a learning curve for all. 
And for a while, loads were going both ways while empties were going both ways.  And shipper owned unit trains got added into the mix. 
So I have drifted out of our time zone, but the reality is that there is no one permanent pattern. Be it 1900 or 1960, someone in Chicago might buy from Atlanta a similar  product as is
being shipped from Pittsburgh to the Port of Mobile.  We can model both at the same time. 
Chuck Peck in Gainesville 

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 


There are many locations in coal country where loaded coal trains travel
in both directions. I think it often is related simply to who bought it from
whom, and has nothing to do with the qualities of the coal.

Tim O'Connor

​ 



Re: Clinchfield hopper deep in ATSF territory

robertmoeller47@...
 

Armen,

What railroad are these hoppers on? Rutand, CV, or both?

Bob Moeller


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Tim O'Connor
 

Clark

There are two SP hoppers -- one just happens to have T&NO reporting marks. :-)

SP 461873 -- T&NO!! H-70-11, 2 bay, rib side, ballast car (these cars would
  have had T&NO reporting marks until after the 1961 T&NO merger into the SP)
T&NO 4431 -- 3 bay, offset side, H-70-5 (renumbered SP 440000-440229 1963)

Tim O'



Here's a list of hopper snapshots I have from SE Minnesota.
I believe the SP hopper is a ballast car. Sorry no UP.
 
HOPPERS
RR
NO STYLE DATE PLACE
C&I
1022 3 BAY RIBBED 8/26/64 STEWARTVILLE
C&IM
6238 2 BAY OFFSET 10/20/61 STEWARTVILLE
C&IM 6194
2 BAY OFFSET STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6718
3 BAY OFFSET 6/18/60 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6815
3 BAY OFFSET 6/17/61 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6835
3 BAY OFFSET 6/3/58 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6873
3 BAY OFFSET 6/21/61 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 68108
3 BAY OFFSET 9/29/1960 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 68144
3 BAY OFFSET 9/22/60 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 69052
3 BAY OFFSET 10/25/63 STEWARTVILLE
DT&I
1855 3 BAY RIBBED 10/25/62 STEWARTVILLE
DT&I
2053 3 BAY RIBBED 6/11/1962 STEWARTVILLE
EJ&E
41767 2 BAY OFFSET 8/11/61 STEWARTVILLE
FtDDM&S
9012 2 BAY RIBBED 7/1/60 STEWARTVILLE
GM&O
60477 2 BAY RIBBED 6/18/64 STEWARTVILLE
GN
70389 3 BAY RIBBED 8/28/63 STEWARTVILLE
IC
74934 2 BAY OFFSET 10/12/64 STEWARTVILLE
IC
83288 3 BAY OFFSET 7/26/61 STEWARTVILLE
IC
90544 2 BAY OFFSET 5/26/65 STEWARTVILLE
KCS
5854 3 BAY OFFSET 7/23/63 STEWARTVILLE
KCS
6120 3 BAY OFFSET 7/21/60 STEWARTVILLE
L&M
1173 2 BAY OFFSET 6/22/64 STEWARTVILLE
L&M
1290 2 BAY OFFSET 6/1/61 STEWARTVILLE
MILW
94894 2 BAY OFFSET 10/15/62 STEWARTVILLE
MP
59394 2 BAY OFFSET 9/13/63 STEWARTVILLE
P&S
11402 2 BAY RIBBED 6/23/65 STEWARTVILLE
PRR
279032 3 BAY RIBBED 10/12/63 STEWARTVILLE
RI
9045 3 BAY RIBBED 7/22/61 STEWARTVILLE
RI
9357 3 BAY RIBBED 8/12/60 STEWARTVILLE
SL-SF
91358 2 BAY OFFSET 7/14/60 STEWARTVILLE
SOO
6161 2 BAY OFFSET 10/1/64 STEWARTVILLE
SOU
320164 2 BAY OFFSET 6/20/65 STEWARTVILLE
SP
461873 2 BAY RIBBED 10/8/63 STEWARTVILLE
T&NO
4431 3 BAY OFFSET 7/1/60 STEWARTVILLE
TP&W
4036 2 BAY OFFSET STEWARTVILLE
VGN
26162 2 BAY RIBBED 9/9/61 STEWARTVILLE
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tim O'Connor
 

There are many locations in coal country where loaded coal trains travel
in both directions. I think it often is related simply to who bought it from
whom, and has nothing to do with the qualities of the coal.

Tim O'Connor

One of my favourite photos of freight trains was taken on the shared SOU/CG double track line between Irondale and Weems, Al. Eastbound is a train with loaded hoppers including some Frisco cars; westbound is another train with loaded N&W hoppers. I have always assumed the first was industrial and domestic coal for Atlanta and the second Met coal headed towards the steel mills.

Aidrian


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Clark Propst
 

Here’s a list of hopper snapshots I have from SE Minnesota. I believe the SP hopper is a ballast car. Sorry no UP.

HOPPERS
RR NO STYLE DATE PLACE
C&I 1022 3 BAY RIBBED 8/26/64 STEWARTVILLE
C&IM 6238 2 BAY OFFSET 10/20/61 STEWARTVILLE
C&IM 6194 2 BAY OFFSET STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6718 3 BAY OFFSET 6/18/60 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6815 3 BAY OFFSET 6/17/61 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6835 3 BAY OFFSET 6/3/58 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 6873 3 BAY OFFSET 6/21/61 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 68108 3 BAY OFFSET 9/29/1960 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 68144 3 BAY OFFSET 9/22/60 STEWARTVILLE
CGW 69052 3 BAY OFFSET 10/25/63 STEWARTVILLE
DT&I 1855 3 BAY RIBBED 10/25/62 STEWARTVILLE
DT&I 2053 3 BAY RIBBED 6/11/1962 STEWARTVILLE
EJ&E 41767 2 BAY OFFSET 8/11/61 STEWARTVILLE
FtDDM&S 9012 2 BAY RIBBED 7/1/60 STEWARTVILLE
GM&O 60477 2 BAY RIBBED 6/18/64 STEWARTVILLE
GN 70389 3 BAY RIBBED 8/28/63 STEWARTVILLE
IC 74934 2 BAY OFFSET 10/12/64 STEWARTVILLE
IC 83288 3 BAY OFFSET 7/26/61 STEWARTVILLE
IC 90544 2 BAY OFFSET 5/26/65 STEWARTVILLE
KCS 5854 3 BAY OFFSET 7/23/63 STEWARTVILLE
KCS 6120 3 BAY OFFSET 7/21/60 STEWARTVILLE
L&M 1173 2 BAY OFFSET 6/22/64 STEWARTVILLE
L&M 1290 2 BAY OFFSET 6/1/61 STEWARTVILLE
MILW 94894 2 BAY OFFSET 10/15/62 STEWARTVILLE
MP 59394 2 BAY OFFSET 9/13/63 STEWARTVILLE
P&S 11402 2 BAY RIBBED 6/23/65 STEWARTVILLE
PRR 279032 3 BAY RIBBED 10/12/63 STEWARTVILLE
RI 9045 3 BAY RIBBED 7/22/61 STEWARTVILLE
RI 9357 3 BAY RIBBED 8/12/60 STEWARTVILLE
SL-SF 91358 2 BAY OFFSET 7/14/60 STEWARTVILLE
SOO 6161 2 BAY OFFSET 10/1/64 STEWARTVILLE
SOU 320164 2 BAY OFFSET 6/20/65 STEWARTVILLE
SP 461873 2 BAY RIBBED 10/8/63 STEWARTVILLE
T&NO 4431 3 BAY OFFSET 7/1/60 STEWARTVILLE
TP&W 4036 2 BAY OFFSET STEWARTVILLE
VGN 26162 2 BAY RIBBED 9/9/61 STEWARTVILLE

Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Eric Neubauer <eaneubauer@...>
 

I lived near the Bethlehem Steel plant in Bethlehem for some time, and the general area is rich in iron furnaces.
The furnaces here used anthracite through about 1900 and then gradually switched to coke over the next 15 years. A German company built a coke plant near the steel mill in the 'teens. It didn't just produce coke, and there was a chemical plant attached which extracted various organic chemicals from the gases. I think this was typical at that time just as it is for oil refineries today. Just about all of the metallurgical/coking coal used in the 1970s arrived in C&O/B&O hoppers, although I remember seeing some PRR hoppers too. Some of the processes in the plant required a source of carbon. I heard they used old tires for this in the electric furnace. That brings me to a question. Some mill operations require a pure source of carbon for which some  types of anthracite is ideal. For example, RBMN has been exporting anthracite to Quebec Iron & Titanium and other companies. Is there a name for this type of coal, or is it just another kind of metallurgical coal? It is presumably not used to make coke.
 
Eric N.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

 

Is that also called metallurgical coal? I know that "met coal" off the Southern was shipped as far as Colorado & Utah -- Southern Railway hoppers in Pueblo CO were not at all unusual in the 1960's and such cars were a common sight in Provo UT in the 1980's-2000's (the only times I visited that area)


      "Met coal" is primarily distinguished by low tar content, so that it makes coke nicely.HIgh BTU is good too.

>And blacksmiths tell me that Pocahontas coal is preferred for forges by many in the trade. Another reason to have the odd off-road hopper going around, although some small forges bought bagged Pocahontas.


    This likely is related to BTU content, not so much the coking potential, though in a small forge I think both affect performance.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Hoppers out west

Thomas Baker
 

A variety of foreign road showed up on the Chicago Great Western. I am uncertain as to when this pattern began, from the mid Fifties to the end of the CGW in June 1968. The reason was that the CGW used the cars for hauling iron ore extracted from the ore mines just off what was referred to as the Minnesota, Wisconsin & Pacific branch south of Rochester, Minnesota. I have seen photos of hoppers from the following roads: Frisco, C&EI, C&IM, NYC, IC, MONON, and many others. I will have to refer to the photos I have. CGW lugged the ore down to McIntire, Iowa, on its main line, and then on its line to Chicago interchanged the ore at Ga;ema. Junction, often with the IC or the CB&Q. The ore was most often destined for East St. Louis.

Tom Baker
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of 'Mike Brock' brockm@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 10:35 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Hoppers out west

As has been pointed out in duplicate, hopper cars did travel onto foreign
roads...often at significant distances...but seldom in significant numbers.
Of course, I only refer to eastern hoppers traveling out west [ in this
case, west of Denver. I have concluded that whoever said "The West starts at
Fort Worth" was wrong ]. Certainly the major coal carrying RR's like N&W,
C&O and Pennsy carried coal to Newcast...ooops, off line [ think the Great
Lake ports ].In fact, one of my favorite eastern hopper car photos is a
color shot of a B&O train filled with MT hopper cars heading back to West By
God Va. In the train is a lone MP 2 bay. Which reminds that MP is the one RR
that seemed not to care where its hoppers went. The ATSF Historical
Society's The War Bonnet has a photo of a string of MP hoppers in CA and,
another string shows up in the UPHS' The Streamliner serving a mine in Utah.
And, of course, there are several shots of MP hoppers in Laramie. In the
video The Big Boy Collection we see both a C&IM and an Illinois Central 2
bay hopper rolling up Sherman Hill but only one of each. Given the numbers
of cars and the fact that only these two show their faces, no, I don't have
even one of each.

Mike Brock




------------------------------------
Posted by: "Mike Brock" <brockm@...>
------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton
 



One of my favourite photos of freight trains was taken on the shared SOU/CG double track line between Irondale and Weems, Al. Eastbound is a train with loaded hoppers including some Frisco cars; westbound is another train with loaded N&W hoppers. I have always assumed the fisrt was  industrial and domestic coal for Atlanta and the second Met coal headed towards the steel mills.

Aidrian

__,_._,__Southern Birmingham Divisio


Re: we all know hoppers dont travel right?

Mikebrock
 

Brian Carlson writes:

"Pennsy steam years Volume 3 page 46. Our esteemed listmaster, make a comment about the UP hoppers not going far afield and challenged anyone to find a photo. I showed him that and got an adult beverage at Prototype Rails, didn't help with the cookies though. Thanks for letting me rub it in again!"

Ah, but Brian...anything to expand our knowledge base. BTW, one sighting that has always puzzled me...for lack of confirmation...was that produced by the late Ross Grenard. Ross was a well known author of narrow gauge Colorado RR's AND the UP. He apparenly rode the only pre 3985 UP steam excursion pulled by a Challenger [ 3967 I think ] during the '50's. Anyhow, incredibly [ by today's standards ], the UP stopped the train up on Sherman Hill and let riders off to watch UP trains roll by. According to Ross, one of those trains consisted entirely of Pennsy hopper cars carrying coal...presumably because of a coal strike on UP served mines or a threat of one. I knew Ross well enough to have faith in what he said. And, no, I have not assembled a long train of Pennsy hopper cars that I run every 18,000 trains I run [ see below ]. One thing that we might overlook when we discuss these sometimes bizarre sightings is the sheer numbers. Apparently the Grenard sighting was a one time occurrence [ but, actually, who knows? ]. If so, during 1957 when the excursion occurred [ I think ], there were about 18,000 trains moving over the Hill. Even the fanatical UP photographers weren't there for all 18,000...were they?

BTW, I have to say that there was another excursion in which the RR let people wander around the tracks with no supervision. I watched Ex N&W 611 come up Saluda with people all over the place. The operation was not a run by as such because they certainly did not stop to let people off.

Mike Brock

66421 - 66440 of 195445