Date   

Re: Wood running boards

Dave Sarther
 

I just pulled out my AFE's for the CB&Q 40' Combo Door Cars to see which term the "Q" used.  Their AFE's for their XM-2 and XM-2A 40' cars refer to them as RUNNING BOARDS.
 
Later,  Dave Sarther
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Feb 27, 2015 6:08 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Wood running boards

 
Wood(en) or steel running boards exist only in the hobby world. In the real world (prototype) they are known as roof walks.

   Wrong. Look at any issue of Car Builders Cyclopedia or Railway Age, certainly at least as late as 1960.  Drawings (AAR or builder), descriptions and manufacturer's ads ALL use the same terminology, as does the set of definitions in the front of the Cyc. Professionally there is no question whatever that it was "running board." What the average switchman may have said is hard to be sure about and in any case not professional engineering language. We won't misunderstand you if you call it a "roof walk," but we will know you are not well informed.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.s ignaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Wood running boards

Tony Thompson
 

Regarding the last two comments----Did April 1st come a month and two days early this year???

    Read ANY pre-1960 professional railroad literature or publication and tell me if you still think it's April 1.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Wood running boards

Schleigh Mike
 

Regarding the last two comments----Did April 1st come a month and two days early this year???

Regards---Mike Schleigh


On Friday, February 27, 2015 8:08 PM, "Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Wood(en) or steel running boards exist only in the hobby world. In the real world (prototype) they are known as roof walks.

   Wrong. Look at any issue of Car Builders Cyclopedia or Railway Age, certainly at least as late as 1960.  Drawings (AAR or builder), descriptions and manufacturer's ads ALL use the same terminology, as does the set of definitions in the front of the Cyc. Professionally there is no question whatever that it was "running board." What the average switchman may have said is hard to be sure about and in any case not professional engineering language. We won't misunderstand you if you call it a "roof walk," but we will know you are not well informed.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history







Re: Wood running boards

Tony Thompson
 

Wood(en) or steel running boards exist only in the hobby world. In the real world (prototype) they are known as roof walks.

   Wrong. Look at any issue of Car Builders Cyclopedia or Railway Age, certainly at least as late as 1960.  Drawings (AAR or builder), descriptions and manufacturer's ads ALL use the same terminology, as does the set of definitions in the front of the Cyc. Professionally there is no question whatever that it was "running board." What the average switchman may have said is hard to be sure about and in any case not professional engineering language. We won't misunderstand you if you call it a "roof walk," but we will know you are not well informed.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





CH&D&PM System what is it

SUVCWORR@...
 

What is the name of the road in the boxcar left side of the photo and what is the framed area to the right of the herald?

Rich Orr

715.07554.CP - Archives Service Center, University of Pittsburgh - Historic Pittsburgh Image Collection

 






Re: hard way to earn a dollar

Andy Harman
 

Can you get them off?

I've gotten good deals on marked down books that had 18 price stickers plastered on them (is the lowest price the on?  Nope, add them together). Ever tried to get multiple stickers off a papet dust jacket?

Sent from my overpriced graham cracker

On Feb 27, 2015, at 5:25 PM, "ed_mines@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

I bought a bunch of Evergreen styrene strips on e bay and a previous owner put a price tag on each one of the strips.


Ed Mines


Re: Wood running boards

Ed Mims
 

Wood(en) or steel running boards exist only in the hobby world. In the real world (prototype) they are known as roof walks.

Ed Mims 
Jacksonville, FL


On Friday, February 27, 2015 5:40 PM, "Schleigh Mike mike_schleigh@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
An apology to the Group----

I was in error  in commenting about the seemingly odd lateral wood running board design (included in the 1937 InterMountain boxcar kits) that Rob K. had asked about.  I said that they were applied to the 1935/1937 ERIE milk cars as described in RP CYC #19.  That was not correct.  However, in that article the illustration of the Viking Chicago-Hutchins roof featured that running board design.  The ERIE cars used the more common/conventional lateral design which Rob expected more appropriate for the typical 1937 AAR car.

Sorry if there was confusion----Mike Schleigh


On Monday, February 23, 2015 10:22 AM, "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
    In the files I had posted some information about running boards, find it the file marked Running Boards that covers part of the steam era and also gives a general observation on wooden running board replacemet times  Jim Dick - chilly St Paul, MN  





Re: Drill size for Kadee Bracket Grabs?

James E Kubanick
 

Drill for Kadee bracket grabs

Bill, 

That would be #75.

Jim Kubanick
Morgantown WV


On Friday, February 27, 2015 8:43 AM, "fgexbill@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Can someone please remind me what the proper size drill bit is for the Kadee Bracket Grabs to get the press fit?

Bill Welch



Re: Wood running boards

Schleigh Mike
 

An apology to the Group----

I was in error  in commenting about the seemingly odd lateral wood running board design (included in the 1937 InterMountain boxcar kits) that Rob K. had asked about.  I said that they were applied to the 1935/1937 ERIE milk cars as described in RP CYC #19.  That was not correct.  However, in that article the illustration of the Viking Chicago-Hutchins roof featured that running board design.  The ERIE cars used the more common/conventional lateral design which Rob expected more appropriate for the typical 1937 AAR car.

Sorry if there was confusion----Mike Schleigh


On Monday, February 23, 2015 10:22 AM, "jcdworkingonthenp@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:


 
    In the files I had posted some information about running boards, find it the file marked Running Boards that covers part of the steam era and also gives a general observation on wooden running board replacemet times  Jim Dick - chilly St Paul, MN  



double sheathed box cars

ed_mines
 

I think several railroads in the northeast  (Lackawanna, LV, D&H) continued to buy double sheathed box cars when other roads switched to steel because they had their own supplies of cheap (or free) timber from land which they owned.


Loggers would pay landowners with timber for the right to cut timber on the landowners' land.


Maybe this was true for GN & NP too.


20 years ago, the last time I was in northeast Pennsylvania, I saw logs on trucks. Cellulose from those logs was used to make disposable diapers.


Ed Mines


hard way to earn a dollar

ed_mines
 

I bought a bunch of Evergreen styrene strips on e bay and a previous owner put a price tag on each one of the strips.


Ed Mines


Re: 1950s SP freight yard

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

That didn't quite come out right. I meant that the GN was using USRA boxcars in the mid-1950s, not that they were still running in 1975. Bad writing.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 2/27/15 4:37 PM, Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Ed,

In 1975 I had a brief job driving a delivery truck in Southern California into many light industrial areas. Imagine my surprise when I found an NP  single-sheathed boxcar in pristine condition at a dog food factory in South Los Angeles. Yes, I had a camera with me. :~)

The GN and NP both hung on to wood cars longer than most roads, possibly because they served a robust timber industry. During the 1950s (mandatory STMFC content), their trains would have been liberally salted with wooden cars. This car in question was a "War Emergency" boxcar, and was about 30m years old, but had been recently painted. The GN was still operating WWI-era USRA boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 2/27/15 3:12 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Leonard Nemoy's death reminds me that he appeared in a 1958 TV show episode of Highway Patrol taking place in an SP freight yard.


The freight yard has a surprising number of single sheathed cars, mostly GN 50 ft, single door box cars. I would had thought that most wood sided cars were gone by then.


I've noticed that soem of these 50 ft. SS, GN box cars have Pratt trusses and some have the more common Howe trusses. Anyone have an explanation?


Ed Mines




Re: 1950s SP freight yard

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Ed,

In 1975 I had a brief job driving a delivery truck in Southern California into many light industrial areas. Imagine my surprise when I found an NP  single-sheathed boxcar in pristine condition at a dog food factory in South Los Angeles. Yes, I had a camera with me. :~)

The GN and NP both hung on to wood cars longer than most roads, possibly because they served a robust timber industry. During the 1950s (mandatory STMFC content), their trains would have been liberally salted with wooden cars. This car in question was a "War Emergency" boxcar, and was about 30m years old, but had been recently painted. The GN was still operating WWI-era USRA boxcars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 2/27/15 3:12 PM, ed_mines@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

Leonard Nemoy's death reminds me that he appeared in a 1958 TV show episode of Highway Patrol taking place in an SP freight yard.


The freight yard has a surprising number of single sheathed cars, mostly GN 50 ft, single door box cars. I would had thought that most wood sided cars were gone by then.


I've noticed that soem of these 50 ft. SS, GN box cars have Pratt trusses and some have the more common Howe trusses. Anyone have an explanation?


Ed Mines



Re: [EXTERNAL] 1950s SP freight yard (UNCLASSIFIED)

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Ed;

They may have been disappearing fast, but there were a significant number of single-sheathed cars, especially those from western, and particularly north-western roads, past the end of this list's interest. Roads I remember seeing SS cars past the end of this list include: NP, RI, GN, maybe one or two SP and ATSF cars, even an AC&Y 50-footer. Most were 50-footers. Richard and I chatted about them once, and he thought the 50-foot cars survived longer because of their original service not being as hard on the cars. Some were in hide service by that time, but I clearly remember NP and GN 50-footers in lumber service, all the way on the east coast.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 3:12 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [STMFC] 1950s SP freight yard



Leonard Nemoy's death reminds me that he appeared in a 1958 TV show episode of Highway Patrol taking place in an SP freight yard.




The freight yard has a surprising number of single sheathed cars, mostly GN 50 ft, single door box cars. I would had thought that most wood sided cars were gone by then.




I've noticed that soem of these 50 ft. SS, GN box cars have Pratt trusses and some have the more common Howe trusses. Anyone have an explanation?




Ed Mines



Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE


1950s SP freight yard

ed_mines
 

Leonard Nemoy's death reminds me that he appeared in a 1958 TV show episode of Highway Patrol taking place in an SP freight yard.


The freight yard has a surprising number of single sheathed cars, mostly GN 50 ft, single door box cars. I would had thought that most wood sided cars were gone by then.


I've noticed that soem of these 50 ft. SS, GN box cars have Pratt trusses and some have the more common Howe trusses. Anyone have an explanation?


Ed Mines


Re: Car Movement Forms/Documents

Tom Vanwormer
 

Tony,
Thanks for the correction.  That ruling tends ensure the finality of the issue.
Tom

Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:

 
Tom VanWormer wrote:

 

Since CPH died in 1901, he didn't have to cope with the rulings from Congress and the ICC in 1906. 

     True. The shippers' rights, however, were established neither by Congress nor the ICC, but by the Supreme Court in a case brought by shippers, against railroads.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Car Movement Forms/Documents

Tony Thompson
 

Tom VanWormer wrote:

 

Since CPH died in 1901, he didn't have to cope with the rulings from Congress and the ICC in 1906. 

     True. The shippers' rights, however, were established neither by Congress nor the ICC, but by the Supreme Court in a case brought by shippers, against railroads.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Car Movement Forms/Documents

Tom Vanwormer
 

Since CPH died in 1901, he didn't have to cope with the rulings from Congress and the ICC in 1906. 

Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC] wrote:

 
Tom VanWormer wrote:

 

The MCB rules allowed the shipper to designate the route and railroads they wanted to handle the load.  During the CP Huntington era, most of the loads were routed over his railroads and in most cases were routed to avoid the Union Pacific.  When Harriman took control of the Espee that was immediately changed to route over the UP.


       These matters are called out in the Bill of Lading, supplied by the shipper. Tom's statement about C.P. Huntington may well be true, but after 1906 the absolute rights of shippers to dictate routing were unquestioned. Harriman or anyone could NOT dictate routing, though railroad executives may have directed the agents to TRY and encourage particular routings by shippers.

Tony Thompson




Re: Car Movement Forms/Documents

Tony Thompson
 

Tom VanWormer wrote:

 

The MCB rules allowed the shipper to designate the route and railroads they wanted to handle the load.  During the CP Huntington era, most of the loads were routed over his railroads and in most cases were routed to avoid the Union Pacific.  When Harriman took control of the Espee that was immediately changed to route over the UP.


       These matters are called out in the Bill of Lading, supplied by the shipper. Tom's statement about C.P. Huntington may well be true, but after 1906 the absolute rights of shippers to dictate routing were unquestioned. Harriman or anyone could NOT dictate routing, though railroad executives may have directed the agents to TRY and encourage particular routings by shippers.

Tony Thompson




Re: Car Movement Forms/Documents

Tom Vanwormer
 

Jim et al.
What era are you asking about?  In the 1880s & 90s the basic document is the waybill.  The destination and shipper on the waybill governed the direction and transfers needed to get the car to it's receiver.  The trip back to the shippers region is based on the requirement to move the car back to it's home road or region.
If the car failed a car inspection when being transferred from one road to another, then the car would receive an inspection routing card that would send it to the nearest car shop for repair of the problem following Master Car Builders (MCB) association rule No. 8.
The MCB rules allowed the shipper to designate the route and railroads they wanted to handle the load.  During the CP Huntington era, most of the loads were routed over his railroads and in most cases were routed to avoid the Union Pacific.  When Harriman took control of the Espee that was immediately changed to route over the UP.
Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

jimbetz jimbetz@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Hi Tony and all,

  I've addressed this to Tony because I -know- he knows the answers -
but any one can answer ...

  I have to admit that I'm a bit fuzzy about what the prototype did/didn't
do in terms of the documents that were created/used for moving freight
cars.
  Some of the answers to this are probably RR specific ... but I'm not as
concerned about that as "getting the big picture" straight in my head.
Specific RR practice differences, if you know them are appreciated but
not required.
                                                ****

  I have/understand that the following movements were done:

  1) Movements of cars in a yard.
  2) Movements of cars from/to a yard - and - to/from a 'local' industry.
  3) Movements of loads and empties from one yard/location to another.
  4) Movements of cars from one RR to another (or receiving from).
  5) Movements of cars being "returned to sender" ... such as cars
       that were in captive service and were labeled "When empty
       return to ____".
  6) Empties being moved for redistribution purposes such as moving
       a beet gondola to be stored somewhere until it was needed again
       or moving some type of car from a yard that had extras to a yard
       that needed that car type.  A simple to understand/see example
       of this is the movement of empty auto racks up and down the
       West Coast.

                                              ****

  So I will make some statements/assertions as a way of getting
started at the kind of answers I'm looking for - some of these will
be wrong (or at least wrong for some particular situation/RR).

  Number 1 was usually a switch list - and there was no waybill
(there actually may be a waybill but it is not used by the crews
doing the moves in the yard for this type of movement).

  Number 2 had a waybill - that was in the hands of the conductor - 
and usually a "routing card" that was stapled to the car (which was
for the convenience of the crew).  The routing cards were created
by a yard clerk and were applied to the cars in the yard.  Normally
these routing cards/forms would be removed upon delivery to
the location (but they were often "missed").  These documents
could be on either the side of the car or the end - or both.  If it
was on the end the tack board was almost always on the right
side when viewing the end of the car.  There were many possible
locations of the tack boards on the sides of the cars - with the
two most common being either on the door or just to the left
of the door - and low enough to be 'reached' by the crews.
Tack board locations on 'special' equipment (i.e. other than box cars)
was "varied".

  Number 3 had a waybill - and did not use a routing card.  (But a
"left over" routing card might be stapled to a few cars and "did
not mean anything".

  Number 4 was a special case of number 3 ... in that there was
a "via" field that was used to identify the 'next RR'.  Sometimes
this was 'complicated' by the use of more than one 'intermediary'
RR.  Did the RRs ever put more than one "via"?

  Number 5 had a waybill - for an empty - that gave both the
final receiver (what was stenciled on the car) and the 'next'
receiver (the "via" - such as an intermediate RR).
 
  Number 6 had a waybill - and it was similar to the situation
in numbers 4 and 5 - but there wasn't any "via".

     ===>  Do I have those correct?  Am I missing any of the
                reasons why cars were moved?

                                         ****

  Extra credit - were/are there different forms that I didn't call
                          out?

  Special extra credit - does anyone have complete sets of
                                        actual examples of these forms for
                                        any of the following RRs?  Great
                                        Northern, ATSF, SP, WP, UP ... essentially
                                        any/all of the 'Western RRs'.  I'd actually
                                        prefer links to web pages for these - my
                                        intent would be to download, print, and
                                        probably even copy and change.
                                                                                                        - Jim

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