Date   

Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis/ Minnesota

Charlie Vlk
 

This topic came up previously and I referenced that the CB&Q apparently had enough Banna Traffic in the Twin Cities to warrant building a sizeable distribution warehouse primarily for that traffic.

I have no idea how they got the cars; presumably from the IC (at East Dubuque?).    Even though the IC may have preferred to set the routing the Traffic Managers of the Banana Companies likely made the determination.

Charlie Vlk

 

Hmmm, not sure why the IC would short-haul itself by handing off to MILW at Dubuque.  The IC had good service to the Twin Cities by handing off to the M&StL at Albert Lea (also with plenty of SB meat reefers).

Dan Sweeney, Jr.

Alexandria, VA


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis/ Minnesota

Dan Sweeney Jr
 

Hmmm, not sure why the IC would short-haul itself by handing off to MILW at Dubuque.  The IC had good service to the Twin Cities by handing off to the M&StL at Albert Lea (also with plenty of SB meat reefers).
Dan Sweeney, Jr.
Alexandria, VA


Re: URTX refrigerator car

Thomas Baker
 

Tim and Doug,

Thanks so much for your information. I, too, think the roof is wood but wanted a more professional opinion than just my suspicions. The color on the ends IS hard to determine. For that matter, the color of the sides is not completely certain. Almost all authorities say a tone of orange for the sides and box car red for the roof and ends. The leased refrigerator cars depicted in Gene Green's book lend credence to this idea: The URTX cars leased to the Soo, CGW, and M&StL have sides that are a tone of orange with roof and ends box car red or red oxide. I am guessing the colors changed at some point in the URTX shops.

When I rode the CGW from Minneapolis to Central Iowa in 1955, our passenger train picked up a freight car which was coupled to the ex-C&O combine. This irritated me because it prevented viewing the receding track as the CGW train "rocketed" down the track. Whatever the car was, its ends were clearly black and its reporting marks clearly URTX. The railroad set the car out in Sumner, Iowa, I believe. The engineer pulled past the depot, backed up, and the brakeman uncoupled the car on what might have been a house track. Then the engineer pulled ahead, backed up to the depot, stopping briefly. I was quite surprised to see a car with yellow sides, URTX reporting marks of course, and a clearly visible Corn Belt Route medallion. By that time, most refrigerator cars leased to the CGW probably did have orange sides, but possibly this one had not gotten back to the URTX shops in Milwaukee and still had the colors of an earlier period: black roof and ends, yellow sides. Wish I had photographed it.

Tom Baker
________________________________________
From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of 'Douglas Harding' doug.harding@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 5:57 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: URTX refrigerator car

Tim, the car does look freshly painted in the image I have. I can't read the
date at the far end of the car, indicating when it was weighed, but it might
be 36. Looks to be the early 36" CGW herald on the right side of the car,
above the words "ventilated refrigerator". And there are four lines of
lettering on the end of the car centered above the coupler.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 3:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: URTX refrigerator car


The photo I have shows a freshly painted car in 1936. It does not look like
a wood roof to me. Outside metal roofs were sheet metal over wood were they
not?

Tim O'


Tom I have a photo of that car, URTX 97136 lettered for the CGW, just as
you describe. It appears to have a wood roof, cant really tell. The blt
date is 5-23. The ends are wood, painted a dark color (FCR?), which based on
Denniss comments, says the car has not been rebuilt and thus has the wood
roof.

Doug Harding


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Posted by: "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...>
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Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis/ Minnesota

np328
 

     From the Minnesota end, I also found what Howard stated to be true. The line beyond Dubuque that the banana traffic traveled on was the Milwaukee Road.  From research years ago, the Northern Pacific tried to see if they could get their hands on some of this traffic north beyond the Twin Cities. To much dismay, they found the Milwaukee pretty much had a lock on this traffic and only gave away what they had to.

    And from the paperwork found it appeared the banana reefers moving north to the Twin Cities went via Austin, MN which would have been the reverse route of the meat traffic heading  south/east out of Austin destined to the IC.

     Keeping all the reefers together be they meat reefers heading one way or produce reefers the others makes much sense.                                                                                              Jim Dick - St Paul, MN


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Steve SANDIFER
 

Thank you for excellent information.


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "george eichelberger geichelberger@... [STMFC]"
Date:04/01/2015 4:37 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?


Bananas from Charleston, SC were from ships docked at the Southern Railway owned pier. The Southern rounded up the empties, loaded and dispatched the cars, that may or may not have been Fruit Growers cars. United Fruit issued lists of refrigerator cars that could be used for banana loading. Cars were billed by the Fruit Dispatch Co. A portion of the outbound loads were interchanged to the ACL and SAL at Charleston.

Cars on the March 16, 1950 list of acceptable cars included ART (4,035 cars), FGE (4,949), WFE (1,696), BRE (762), IC (498), MDT (4,076), NRC (2,160), PFE (32,345), SFRD (10,176), DL&W (295), NP (1,285) and URT (479) for a total of 62,756 cars. Note, this is not a total of those companies reefers, only those acceptable to Fruit Dispatch. The URT cars, for example have a note “Cars in this series (37000-37999) acceptable if inside wall ribs are not exposed”. Some cars could be used for summer loading only.

An example waybill for FGE 35936, loaded by United Fruit Sales Corp. off SS Tucurinca #9 (ninth arrival at Charleston) at Sou. Rwy. pier 2, Charleston, SC 9-18-62 to Chicago. Consignee was Inland Trading Co. routed Sou to Cincinnati, Big Four to Kankakee, then IC to Chicago. Gross wt was 91440, tare 56200 and net 35240.

Freight charge for 35240 lbs was $444.60, minus $27.41 (W&H ABS?) for a transportation cost of $417.19. Warfage cost was $27.31, ice $13.08 and switching $.77 for a total of $41.16. Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read:

Front vents closed plugs in detached
Rear vents on irons plugs out
iced 2 ton at Charleston SC
Keep fans on

(maybe inbill can help decipher?)

We cannot tell from the waybill if this car actually went to Chicago. The Southern Railway Historical Association’s files have quite a few diversion telegrams that describe diversions at various terminals. Further research might let us match a diversion to a particular waybill. In reading through the file I did not realize how many local grocery stores and distributers received car loads of bananas. A large number of cars from Charleston appear to have been billed to Cincinnati for local distribution or further transfer.

I am working on a banana article for SRHA’s TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year’s St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs. The archives includes folders of 60-75 ship arrivals with EVERY outbound train consist. Banana specials were usually about 45 cars, appropriate for a Southern 2-8-2.

(I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!)

Ike



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Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Mikebrock
 

Jeff Aley says:

"Now, if you had included Prototype Rails [Cocoa Beach, FL] in that list then I wouldn't have complained. As it is, you might end up in Moderate Jail. :-)"

Oh, I don't think we'll have to reserve a cel...uh...room for George in Moderate Jail. I fully expect to see him in Cocoa Beach next Jan.

Now...about that whistle. Let's see. When did Southern dieselize? They were supposed to have been the first class 1 RR to do so.

Mike Brock
Moderate Jail Keeper


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

George Eichelberger
 

THIS might get me in the lock-up because they were 1960s cars but the current issue of SRHA TIES has several articles on Southern's "Big John" covered hoppers to accompany the release of ExactRail's absolutely beautiful HO models. It is the first TIES issue with a fold-out page and includes about anything anyone would want to know about the cars and the Big John rate case. (www.srha.net/grab)

SRHA Editor Bill Schafer and Mike Schafer (at White River) did a very nice job with the layout. (Cousins, they must share some kind of railroad gene.)

Ike


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

David Sieber
 

In STMFC, George Eichelberger said, "I am working on a banana article for SRHA’s TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year’s St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs."

Ike, I suspect there are many folks beyond Southern Railway fans who would find that material interesting.  May I suggest you consider (1) presenting at Prototype Rails (Cocoa Beach) and/or RPM Naperville, or (2) sumitting your banana article to Model Railroad Hobbyist or Railroad Model Craftsman?  Either would reach a larger, nationwide audience.  Although I model the Far West, I'd be very interested in your presentation/article!

Dave Sieber, Reno NV


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Aley, Jeff A
 

Ike,

I wasn't going to complain about the bandwidth until you said, "it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year's St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs."

Now, if you had included Prototype Rails [Cocoa Beach, FL] in that list then I wouldn't have complained. As it is, you might end up in Moderate Jail. :-)

Regards,

-Jeff
Deputy Moderator, STMFC
Clinic Chairman, Prototype Rails 2016

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 2:37 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?


Bananas from Charleston, SC were from ships docked at the Southern Railway owned pier. The Southern rounded up the empties, loaded and dispatched the cars, that may or may not have been Fruit Growers cars. United Fruit issued lists of refrigerator cars that could be used for banana loading. Cars were billed by the Fruit Dispatch Co. A portion of the outbound loads were interchanged to the ACL and SAL at Charleston.

Cars on the March 16, 1950 list of acceptable cars included ART (4,035 cars), FGE (4,949), WFE (1,696), BRE (762), IC (498), MDT (4,076), NRC (2,160), PFE (32,345), SFRD (10,176), DL&W (295), NP (1,285) and URT (479) for a total of 62,756 cars. Note, this is not a total of those companies reefers, only those acceptable to Fruit Dispatch. The URT cars, for example have a note "Cars in this series (37000-37999) acceptable if inside wall ribs are not exposed". Some cars could be used for summer loading only.

An example waybill for FGE 35936, loaded by United Fruit Sales Corp. off SS Tucurinca #9 (ninth arrival at Charleston) at Sou. Rwy. pier 2, Charleston, SC 9-18-62 to Chicago. Consignee was Inland Trading Co. routed Sou to Cincinnati, Big Four to Kankakee, then IC to Chicago. Gross wt was 91440, tare 56200 and net 35240.

Freight charge for 35240 lbs was $444.60, minus $27.41 (W&H ABS?) for a transportation cost of $417.19. Warfage cost was $27.31, ice $13.08 and switching $.77 for a total of $41.16. Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read:

Front vents closed plugs in detached
Rear vents on irons plugs out
iced 2 ton at Charleston SC
Keep fans on

(maybe inbill can help decipher?)

We cannot tell from the waybill if this car actually went to Chicago. The Southern Railway Historical Association's files have quite a few diversion telegrams that describe diversions at various terminals. Further research might let us match a diversion to a particular waybill. In reading through the file I did not realize how many local grocery stores and distributers received car loads of bananas. A large number of cars from Charleston appear to have been billed to Cincinnati for local distribution or further transfer.

I am working on a banana article for SRHA's TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year's St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs. The archives includes folders of 60-75 ship arrivals with EVERY outbound train consist. Banana specials were usually about 45 cars, appropriate for a Southern 2-8-2.

(I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!)

Ike



------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

 

Des Plaines Hobbies stocks a lot of historical society magazines. I don't
remember if SRHA "Ties" was there but you could ask Ron.


      Good point, Tim, but the SRHA makes more money if we buy the copies direct. Just my two centavos.


Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Tim O'Connor
 

Des Plaines Hobbies stocks a lot of historical society magazines. I don't
remember if SRHA "Ties" was there but you could ask Ron.

Tim O'Connor

George, your article sounds very interesting. When it comes out, maybe you can let the list know how to buy copies from SRHA.
Tony Thompson


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

devansprr
 

In 1943, PRR freight schedules and arranged freight log sheets indicate banana specials out of Bayview yard in Baltimore on Mondays and Thursdays. The special was westbound out the PRR main, and in addition to servicing the PA markets, includes a number of destinations in Ohio, including Columbus and Cleveland (Northern Ohio Food Terminal). The PRR had several routes out of Columbus, to include to Indianapolis, but there is no specific mention of bananas headed that direction out of Columbus on the schedules, although there were perishable moves to Indianapolis.

The documents also suggest car loads of bananas were delivered to the Erie and Nickel Plate in Cleveland. No information is provided on where those roads took the bananas.

I suspect, but have no authoritative document, that because the trains were probably seasonal, and ran only two days per week, they were not part of the "regularly" scheduled (also referred to as "arranged") freight trains  (recognizing that for dispatching purposes all freights ran as extra's on the PRR.)

Between Altoona and Cleveland, the PRR's premier passenger train on that route (#39, the Clevelander) was scheduled to take 6 hours and 10 minutes, while the Arranged freight log sheets indicate the desired run time for the Banana special between the same city pairs was 7 hours and 25 minutes (including a 45 minute stop in one of PRR's Pittsburgh freight yards (Pitcairn) for a power change and setout of Bananas for Pittsburgh and Columbus), suggesting the Banana special ran at nearly passenger train speeds.

But no known tower sheets or traffic study stringlines can back that up.

Dave Evans


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Mikebrock
 

George Eichelberger writes about the Southern RR with his usual high level of competence and then notes:

(I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!)

Not hardly. In fact, I want more. George mentions that car FGE 35936 travels from Charleston to Cincinnati via Southern tracks. A quick look at the route shows that 35936 went either through Knoxville or Chattanooga on its way to Oakdale where it entered the Rathole to Cincinnati. If it went through Knoxville it would have probably taken the shortest route to Oak Dale through Clinton which meant that it would then have gone down the valley just north of Oak Ridge and I would likely have heard its train's whistle from up on the fenced in ridge...if we interrupted our "pickup" football game long enough to hear it.

A few yrs ago.

Mike Brock


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Tony Thompson
 

george eichelberger wrote:

Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read:

Front vents closed plugs in detached
Rear vents on irons plugs out
iced 2 ton at Charleston SC
Keep fans on

(maybe inbill can help decipher?)
Hatch plugs were separate parts of the hatch closure before the advent of steel hatch covers. Plugs were attached with chains on earlier cars (later hinged, though separately from covers), and the chains permitting dropping the plugs inside the car, or outside onto the roof alongside the hatch. I do not know what "detached" means, unless FGE or some other cars had a shackle or something in that chain, permitting detachment. The rest of that instruction sounds simply like plugs in normal place, hatch cover closed. "Vents on" of course refers to hatch covers latched open ("on irons). Running fans with ice in the bunkers ensured plenty of cool air circulation, and an open vent may have been an effort to keep the cargo from getting too cold. Bananas often were NOT iced, as cold can cause browning of the fruit's skin. PFE often assigned old cars with deteriorated insulation to banana service, as the cargo wasn't usually refrigerated anyway.
George, your article sounds very interesting. When it comes out, maybe you can let the list know how to buy copies from SRHA.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: URTX refrigerator car

Douglas Harding
 

Tim, the car does look freshly painted in the image I have. I can't read the
date at the far end of the car, indicating when it was weighed, but it might
be 36. Looks to be the early 36" CGW herald on the right side of the car,
above the words "ventilated refrigerator". And there are four lines of
lettering on the end of the car centered above the coupler.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 3:29 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: URTX refrigerator car


The photo I have shows a freshly painted car in 1936. It does not look like
a wood roof to me. Outside metal roofs were sheet metal over wood were they
not?

Tim O'


Tom I have a photo of that car, URTX 97136 lettered for the CGW, just as
you describe. It appears to have a wood roof, cant really tell. The blt
date is 5-23. The ends are wood, painted a dark color (FCR?), which based on
Denniss comments, says the car has not been rebuilt and thus has the wood
roof.

Doug Harding


------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

George Eichelberger
 

Bananas from Charleston, SC were from ships docked at the Southern Railway owned pier. The Southern rounded up the empties, loaded and dispatched the cars, that may or may not have been Fruit Growers cars. United Fruit issued lists of refrigerator cars that could be used for banana loading. Cars were billed by the Fruit Dispatch Co. A portion of the outbound loads were interchanged to the ACL and SAL at Charleston.

Cars on the March 16, 1950 list of acceptable cars included ART (4,035 cars), FGE (4,949), WFE (1,696), BRE (762), IC (498), MDT (4,076), NRC (2,160), PFE (32,345), SFRD (10,176), DL&W (295), NP (1,285) and URT (479) for a total of 62,756 cars. Note, this is not a total of those companies reefers, only those acceptable to Fruit Dispatch. The URT cars, for example have a note “Cars in this series (37000-37999) acceptable if inside wall ribs are not exposed”. Some cars could be used for summer loading only.

An example waybill for FGE 35936, loaded by United Fruit Sales Corp. off SS Tucurinca #9 (ninth arrival at Charleston) at Sou. Rwy. pier 2, Charleston, SC 9-18-62 to Chicago. Consignee was Inland Trading Co. routed Sou to Cincinnati, Big Four to Kankakee, then IC to Chicago. Gross wt was 91440, tare 56200 and net 35240.

Freight charge for 35240 lbs was $444.60, minus $27.41 (W&H ABS?) for a transportation cost of $417.19. Warfage cost was $27.31, ice $13.08 and switching $.77 for a total of $41.16. Instructions for icing, ventilation, heating, milling, etc. read:

Front vents closed plugs in detached
Rear vents on irons plugs out
iced 2 ton at Charleston SC
Keep fans on

(maybe inbill can help decipher?)

We cannot tell from the waybill if this car actually went to Chicago. The Southern Railway Historical Association’s files have quite a few diversion telegrams that describe diversions at various terminals. Further research might let us match a diversion to a particular waybill. In reading through the file I did not realize how many local grocery stores and distributers received car loads of bananas. A large number of cars from Charleston appear to have been billed to Cincinnati for local distribution or further transfer.

I am working on a banana article for SRHA’s TIES magazine for later this year. If enough people find this kind of material interesting, it may be possible to suggest a presentation at this year’s St. Louis and Kennesaw (Atlanta) RPMs. The archives includes folders of 60-75 ship arrivals with EVERY outbound train consist. Banana specials were usually about 45 cars, appropriate for a Southern 2-8-2.

(I hope all of this bandwidth does not get me in Mikes jail!)

Ike


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

Bill Welch
 

In my research I seem to remember coming across an annual Banana Festival in Fulton which at the time seemed an odd place for such an event but Jim's comment explains the context.

Bill Welch


Re: URTX refrigerator car

Tim O'Connor
 

The photo I have shows a freshly painted car in 1936. It does not look like
a wood roof to me. Outside metal roofs were sheet metal over wood were they not?

Tim O'

Tom I have a photo of that car, URTX 97136 lettered for the CGW, just as you describe. It appears to have a wood roof, can�t really tell. The blt date is 5-23. The ends are wood, painted a dark color (FCR?), which based on Dennis�s comments, says the car has not been rebuilt and thus has the �wood roof�.

Doug Harding


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

james murrie
 

If I recall correctly the main IC station for servicing the banana refers as they traveled north from New Orleans was Fulton KY.
Jim Murrie


Re: Bananas to the Indianapolis?

earlyrail
 

Would the banana traffic have been diverted to other destinations while en-route to Chicago? Or would the bananas be transloaded in Chicago and sent to other destinations?
The IC Historical group did an "Green Diamond" magazine issue on banana traffic.
Bananas going north to Minnesota were interchanged at East Dubuque among other locations.

Howard Garner

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