Date   

Postwar stock car car Dreadnaught end

Andy Carlson <midcenturyandy@...>
 

Nice photo of a rare end. I have a little story about this end. Many years ago, while our deceased friend Terry Wegmann was in the middle of tooling up his Pacific Fruit Express R-30-18 flat kit he made a deal with a fellow model railroader/tool maker. Seems that making Dreadnaught ends by CNC machining is very challenging (Look at how most of the Intermountain various dreadnaught ends are at best just fair representations of the real ends) and Terry agreed to make this very same end for his friend's UP stock car by using the old-school techniques of making a hand made pattern oversize and then using a 3D pantograph to cut the end in a mold. Terry in return got 20,000 plus hand formed roof safety grabs for his reefer made by some teenagers in Korea.

If someone wishes to see a comparison between "good enough" improved Dreadnaught reefer ends (from the Intermountain HO R-40-23) with an excellent rendition (on the S scale R-40-23 sold by Des Plaines hobbies) they can see the differences from the 2 techniques. The old-school method has produced some great tooling, such as the Athearn blomberg truck in HO scale. With the more expensive 5-axis CNC machines, the edge is closing, but I have never seen as nice an end from CNC work as shown by Terry's S scale dreadnaught end.

-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: Postwar stock car car Dreadnaught end

Robert kirkham
 

Interesting.  Don’t know what it should be called, but for ease of reference, the slim ribs remind me of Q tips. 
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 9:23 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Postwar stock car car Dreadnaught end
 


Here's a Dreadnaught variation which I don't think has been discussed before. It seems to be sort of a hybrid of the Improved Dreadnaught and the earlier Dreadnaught.  This example is on a UP S-40-12.

 

http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific/UP-Freight-Cars/i-VCQBnhr/A

 

I think I've only noticed this type of end on postwar stock cars.

 

Like the Improved Dreadnaught, it has narrow minor corrugations extending across the end between the major corrugations (aka "ribs").

 

But since it's a 4/5 end the major corrugations must have the 12" center to center spacing of the pre-1944 Dreadnaught, rather than 15" c-to-c as on the Standard IDE.

 

My guess is that since this is for a square-cornered car, it's an attempt to apply one of the design elements of the IDE to strengthen the earlier design, without creating a completely new design and tooling for a product that would have only limited production.

 

So what do we call it?

 

Jack Mullen

 


Postwar stock car car Dreadnaught end

Jack Mullen
 

Here's a Dreadnaught variation which I don't think has been discussed before. It seems to be sort of a hybrid of the Improved Dreadnaught and the earlier Dreadnaught.  This example is on a UP S-40-12.


http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Union-Pacific/UP-Freight-Cars/i-VCQBnhr/A


I think I've only noticed this type of end on postwar stock cars.


Like the Improved Dreadnaught, it has narrow minor corrugations extending across the end between the major corrugations (aka "ribs").


But since it's a 4/5 end the major corrugations must have the 12" center to center spacing of the pre-1944 Dreadnaught, rather than 15" c-to-c as on the Standard IDE.


My guess is that since this is for a square-cornered car, it's an attempt to apply one of the design elements of the IDE to strengthen the earlier design, without creating a completely new design and tooling for a product that would have only limited production.


So what do we call it?


Jack Mullen



Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Robert kirkham
 

Fair enough Jack – I was trying to find some on-line images to communicate what I felt I was seeing off line and wasn’t entirely successful.  Sometimes its helpful to Photoshop the images to accentuate shapes.   I can see why you see triangles in the end of the ribs on the MILW car, but to me those triangles look more or less like facets (catching triangular shaped light) on the rounded softball shaped ends.  Those triangles are to a significant degree aligned more perpendicular to the flat surfaces of the car end.  In contrast, the terminations on the DL&W car are almost flat where they form into the flat surfaces of the end, and the triangles are longer and more  approximately parallel (rather than perpendicular) to the flat surface of the end.   OK, I admit I’m searching for words to describe what I see.
 
But have a look at the link Richard Bale forwarded http://mrhpub.com/2014-10-oct/land/#92, page 100, where the ends of SLSF160210 and the unidentified car to its right demonstrate the same issue – the SLSF cars ribs terminate in the more flat smoothing triangular shape and the car to the right in the more bulbous, err, buried softball shape.  [To me, the KCS and ATSF cars are more like the car on the right than the SLSF car. ]
 
I’m not saying I have studied and identified a clear manufacturing design element.  I was wondering whether it may be a design change.   I suppose it could be a number of factors including lighting, and may not be something that can be readily explained.   I also accept Dennis Storzek’s thought that over the time the dies would be in service, the hard use, the need of repairs, and the multiple dies would result in different shaped metal stampings.  I suggest the difference in form is distinct enough to infer it was created by the way the steel was stamped into shape, and did not result from wear and tear of the car itself.   [That said, there are enough shots of wear and tear that also make interesting shapes and modelling challenges].    
 
Anyhow, I’m more asking than asserting anything here.
 
I appreciate the thoughts and info others have been able to share on this question.
 
Rob Kirkham    
 
 
 

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 7:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs
 


Rob,
 
I agree with your basic point that the shape of the rib tips changed, probably over time tho maybe not in clear-cut "phases".
 
That said, I'm not seeing what you see in some of these photos. The Milw auto car's end looks to me to have ribs terminating in a roughly triangular slope, with rounded edges.
 
Looking at DL&W 46892, I'm not at all sure the end is a Dreadnaught. It looks like it could be a 7/7 corrugated.  The pattern of light and shadow makes it really hard to judge the taper of the ribs, or ribs and darts.  If nothing else, that's a good example of how hard it is to determine shape from a photo.
 
Jack Mullen
 
 


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

hayden_tom@...
 

Robert,   I don't think any of this is "old hat" to the  group. There remains a lot of confusion and different terminology regarding Dreadnaught ends. I have seen terms Dreadnaught, Inverse Dreadnaught, Inset Dreadnaught, inverted Dreadnaught, improved Dreadnaught, "W section post" Dreadnaught, and others. About a year ago Richard Hendrickson sent me a 17 pg pdf he was working on with 16 clear photos of various end types. I would be glad to share this with you. Send me an e-mail off line.

Tom Hayden


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Jack Mullen
 

Rob,

I agree with your basic point that the shape of the rib tips changed, probably over time tho maybe not in clear-cut "phases".

That said, I'm not seeing what you see in some of these photos. The Milw auto car's end looks to me to have ribs terminating in a roughly triangular slope, with rounded edges.

Looking at DL&W 46892, I'm not at all sure the end is a Dreadnaught. It looks like it could be a 7/7 corrugated.  The pattern of light and shadow makes it really hard to judge the taper of the ribs, or ribs and darts.  If nothing else, that's a good example of how hard it is to determine shape from a photo.

Jack Mullen



Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :


...with precise cross sections and outlines, so it was a deliberate process that formed them. 
 
Rob Kirkham
=====================

Herein lies the problem; the drawings are dimensioned in fractional inches to the nearest 1/16", but no tolerance is given. Could be +/- 1/32", could be +/- 1/2", could be different tolerances for different classes of dimensions, which is likely, but not defined. Without this information, the drawing only shows what is ideal, not what was allowable for production parts.

Dennis Storzek

 


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Robert kirkham
 

I don’t know for certain how the process was done, but agree that the male and female die pair makes sense. 
 
I’m not sure if I am understanding your question David – are you asking whether the darts are just a byproduct arising from stretching the steel when the ribs are impressed?   If so, I don’t think that is the process.  The darts are specifically called out in the drawings I’ve seen, with precise cross sections and outlines, so it was a deliberate process that formed them. 
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs
 


David Thompson wrote:

 

This brings up something I've wondered about. My understanding was that Dreadnaught ends and the like were formed by pressing a steel sheet between sets of blocks arranged in a pattern to produce the desired rib shape, with the "darts" formed by the sheet stretching between the set blocks. Was it common practice by that time to use a pair of negative dies to fully stamp the entire shape?

 
      I don't know specifically about freight car ends, but what I know about metal stamping in general makes me pretty sure they would have used a male and female die pair. Dennis may know exactly.
 
Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history
 




Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Dennis Storzek
 

No, we've discussed this before years ago, but I have never found anything conclusive.

Dennis Storzek


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Tony Thompson
 

David Thompson wrote:

 

This brings up something I've wondered about. My understanding was that Dreadnaught ends and the like were formed by pressing a steel sheet between sets of blocks arranged in a pattern to produce the desired rib shape, with the "darts" formed by the sheet stretching between the set blocks. Was it common practice by that time to use a pair of negative dies to fully stamp the entire shape?


      I don't know specifically about freight car ends, but what I know about metal stamping in general makes me pretty sure they would have used a male and female die pair. Dennis may know exactly.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

David
 

This brings up something I've wondered about. My understanding was that Dreadnaught ends and the like were formed by pressing a steel sheet between sets of blocks arranged in a pattern to produce the desired rib shape, with the "darts" formed by the sheet stretching between the set blocks. Was it common practice by that time to use a pair of negative dies to fully stamp the entire shape?

David Thompson


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

 
Some ribs have more rounded cross sections; others more flat surfaces.  It can depend on the lighting in photos, but the effect is noticeable.
 ==========================

Robert,

I think you are going to find there is no good answer. I suspect that the differences in rib termination is due to unintentional differences in the stamping dies that formed the ends... And I'm sure SRECo. had multiple sets of dies in production at any given time. Some were almost new; some almost worn beyond use, some repaired via building worn places up with weld and hand grinding to restore the contours.

Keep in mind that in a world without Computer Numerical Control, dies were built by shaping steel blocks by hand , or on manual machinery, and shape was controlled by matching the blocks to a template. How well they had to match that template would have been called out on the drawings for the dies, not that I've ever seen any.

Best you can do is model the part to the sections shown on the part drawings, then tweak the profile and fillet radii to get the desired visual effect.

Dennis Storzek


Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Robert kirkham
 

This is a further question following my enquiry earlier this week about the Car Builder’s Cycs for the 1930s.  I’m working on 3d drawings of various dreadnaught ends – with a focus (for now) on the nominal “square” corner ends.  Thanks to several folks on this list, I’ve received some useful references and other assistance.  I was also able to get a poor quality mechanical drawing for a CC&F end that was helpful.   Several drawings on the N&W Historical Society web page are very helpful, but not all are available in thumbnails at this date.   https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/   In particular, the mechanical drawings contain the additional detail information required for modelling (that information is absent from the general arrangement drawings).
 
As I look at photos of various cars, it becomes clear to me there is a lot of variety within the mid 30s to mid 40s era of designs, let alone the later and earlier eras.   For this e-mail I’m especially focused on rib and dart shapes.    
 
Some ribs have more rounded cross sections; others more flat surfaces.  It can depend on the lighting in photos, but the effect is noticeable.
 
Focusing on how the outer ends of the ribs and darts terminate into the flat surface of the end panels is also interesting (at least, to me).  Note the photos that are referenced to show rib ends below were not chosen based on date of the end panel design.  I don’t have that information for those cars.  
 
Some flow into a nicely rounded end shape that might conform (very approximately) to a partially buried softball (I’m not being fussy about the dimensions for this description): 
 
Others flatten out to a somewhat rounded triangular shape:
http://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1947-Sep-Ogden/i-4ZKmn9Q/O   (DL&W 46982.  Note that the triangular shape is most observable on the lower panel in this photo; the upper panel is less clear.) 
 
Others terminate in no particularly consistent shape:
 
The modelling challenge becomes a little more clear when looking at the photos: either the stamped steel ends were not consistent as manufactured, or did change over time with damage and other stresses.  Damage and other stresses is my preferred theory, but I have not looked at a lot of builders photos to work through that carefully.
 
[For this e-mail, I am ignoring the ends where the ribs and darts are more inward than outward:
 
This is probably all “old hat” to some of you, but having not been down this path in detail before, I thought I’d ask if there are any particularly detailed reference works for this topic. 
 
Rob Kirkham


second Kadee PS-1 8' door 50 foot car

Tim O'Connor
 

Santa Fe Bx-74 -- series 12500-12699 built 1957
http://www.kadee.com/month/future/6376l.jpg

This is the second 8' door 50 foot PS-1 from Kadee -- and it
has a different side sill than that previously announced MP car
( http://www.kadee.com/month/6375lw.jpg )

Tim O'Connor


WESTERFIELD MODELS NATIONAL TRAIN DAY SALE

dahminator68
 

Dear Steam Era Modeler:

We are pleased to announce that Westerfield Models is having a NATIONAL TRAIN DAY SALE!
This sale will be in effect from 12:01 am May 9 through 11:59 pm May 11, 2015 and is available for orders placed on our Website,
Mail-in Order Form, or via Phone on Monday, May 11 Only, from 9am to 5pm, Mountain Time Zone.
Mailed in orders must be postmarked by May 11, 2015.
Please indicate the sale item in the comment section.

Choose one of the following sale Options:

FIRST OPTION: Buy 3 Items and get 50% off the Third Item.
This option is for like-items only. For example, buy 3 Kits and get the third Kit at 50% off or
buy 3 Decals and get the third Decal at 50% off.
This option is for the following types of items only: Kits, Decals, Detail Parts & Disks. See Restrictions Below*.
USE COUPON CODE: BUY3SALE

SECOND OPTION: Buy 6 Items and get the 6th Item FREE.
This option is also for like-items only. For example, buy 6 Kits and get the 6th Kit Free or
buy 6 Detail Parts and get the 6th Detail Part Free.
This option is for the following types of items only: Kits, Decals, Detail Parts & Disks. See Restrictions Below*.
USE COUPON CODE: BUY6ONEFREE

All of our Kits are available at our secure website: westerfieldmodels.com
Please Note: Shipping is not included.
 
*RESTRICTIONS ON SALE ITEMS: KITS - The following Kits are NOT eligible for FREE KITS: All Kits Priced $42 and Higher, Sets #7598, #7599
DISKS - The following Disks are NOT eligible for FREE DISKS: ACF Disk, PRR ORER Disks I, II, III or the set of 3
TRUCKS - Tahoe Model Works Trucks are also NOT included in the sale.

Westerfield Kits include new HO scale unpainted urethane castings, and are complete with quality details, detailed instruction/history sheets
and proprietary decals covering all versions of the prototype car. Trucks and couplers are not included.

We are also pleased to announce that TAHOE MODEL WORKS Trucks are now available through Westerfield Models. Now listed on our Website in our Secure
Model Store under "Tahoe Model Works Trucks". All fifteen of the Tahoe Truck types are available with any of three wheelset types: Frame only, RP-25
Wheelsets, Semi-Scale Wheelsets.
The availability of Semi-Scale Wheelsets is contingent on current availability. Please check before ordering.
We also have a "Tahoe Trucks Listing" page on our Main website page that provides information on each type of truck and, in some cases a user list for that truck.

Link to our Tahoe Trucks page: https://id18538.securedata.net/westerfieldmodels.com/merchantmanager/index.php?cPath=264

We are currently updating our Westerfield Kit Truck List to show what Tahoe trucks can be used with Westerfield Model Kits.

We are reorganizing our Website by Freight Car Type in order to better serve our modeling customers.
Please check out our updated Secure Model Store and pages on our Main Page, left side.
Please see our list of Ready to Ship Kits on our website main page. These Kits are available now and ready to ship!
 
Thank you,
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Westerfield Models, LLC
westerfieldmodels.com
westerfieldmodels@...
Like us on Facebook!
 
 


DA email contact

Pierre Oliver
 

Gents,
I had it and now I can't find it.
Anybody have the email address for contacting Detail Associates?
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: So, did we ever aagree on an answer on this tank car? (UNCLASSIFIED)

Douglas Harding
 

Jack, thanks for the information. I was not familiar with the Glidden logo, and concur that is what is on the tankcar. I will add that to my knowledge pool.

 

Doug Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 


Re: $12 off-Intermountain HO NP alt std AAR 2-bay hoppers 4 sale

John Larkin
 

Hi Andy,
    I'm just geting caught up on my emails after back surgery --  almost 1,000 when I got back to my computer.  Just by chance, are any of these cars left?

Thanks,

John Larkin



On Friday, May 1, 2015 10:55 AM, "Andy Carlson midcenturyandy@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 






Hello-

I have 12 Intermountain Northern Pacific HO 2-bayhoppers of the AAR alt std design. This is a fairly recent offering from Intermountain, and ranks as one of their best executed designs for freight cars.

Intermountain #47152, I have 2 each of 6 numbers. Cars are in as-delivered paint scheme of 1-40 build date. You can look at these cars on Intermountain's web site.

Retail at $40 each, I am selling my remaining cars for $28/each, plus shipping. There are a total of 6 different numbers. If you want all 6 numbers, I will try to accommodate you, though you should not delay too long.

I accept checks and money orders. For a small fee, I accept PayPal. If interested, contact me off-list (Please) at <midcentury@...>
Thanks,
-Andy




Re: Chicago-Cleveland roofs

Benjamin Hom
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"There was an article in Mainline Modeler about the later version of the Viking Roof written by me."

Scott Haycock asked:
"Can you tell us which issue?"

November 1986.  Came right up when I did a search on "Ed Mines" at http://index.mrmag.com .


Ben Hom


Re: Chicago-Cleveland roofs

Scott H. Haycock
 


Ed Mines wrote:
 

"There was an article in Mainline Modeler about the later version of the Viking Roof written by me."

Can you tell us which issue?


Scott Haycock

50021 - 50040 of 183678