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File : /Early Dreadnaught.xlsx
Uploaded by : r_eric_lombard <elombard@uchicago.edu>
Description : Table of series built 1927 NEW with earliest Dreadnaught ends


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https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/files/Early%20Dreadnaught.xlsx


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Regards,


r_eric_lombard <elombard@uchicago.edu>


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Eric Lombard
 

Hello Everyone,

I have just uploaded a spreadsheet of the earliest series built NEW with some form of Dreadnaught end. There are 45 series built in 1927, none earlier, and the spreadsheet contains some of the data available for each series extracted from my box car database. The data are from diverse sources which are available on request. I am always leery of claiming certainty (especially in this crowd), but feel fairly confident that this list is complete. Not included are cars rebuilt to steel ends during this time, some of which received Dreadnaught ends.

  • DREADNAUGHT:
  • L  indicates end where the ribs and darts have rounded terminations, the ribs project out from the plane of the end, and the corner is square (L)
  • R  indicates end where the ribs and darts have rounded terminations and the ribs project inward (Reverse) from the plane of the end (now generally called inverse, a better term I agree)
  • D  indicates an additional supernumerary short "riblet" (Dimple) above and or below the seam between sections.
  • F  indicates that the square corner is inset to the plane of the side sheathing (Flange).
  • >  indicates end where the ribs and darts have planar triangular terminations.

The earliest built date known for each series is tabled. Those from 2-27 to 12-27 are documented from photos, equipment diagrams, or other RR paper. Those indicated as 1-1927 are place holders for series known to be built in 1927 but with no month date known at present. None of these are listed in the 5-1927 ORER and so are likely built in the latter part of the year.


The quick summary would be the earliest documented is 2-27 and all variations (at least by the criteria used here) occur in 1927. 


I would welcome corrections and additions!


Eric Lombard

 Homewood, IL


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

thmsdmpsy
 

What a shame, I've found every one of them I was able to acquire to be a great read. Tom Dempsey, Spokane,WA


Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Robert kirkham
 

Agreed!  But I’d like it to discuss the inward ribbed ends as well.  And variants.   
 
For example, another photo in Richard’s Focus on Freight Cars v.1, shows ATSF 124504 at page 9.  The ends on this car has the look of inward ribs.  But notice the top edge of the top rib.  It appears to be on the same plane as the edges/corners of the panel, making the rib outward protruding. 
 
There is a lot going on in that geometry, and well worth a full review.  Even a list of the various cars with the Dreadnaught ends (including all variants) in chronological order would be a helpful start.  I wonder about the ends sold as re-build parts versus those used in new construction; and I wonder about the various plants where the ends were stamped. 
 
Rob Kirkham
 

Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:24 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs
 


This is the kind of subject I think would be an interesting article for the Ed and Pat at RP CYC to tackle.
 
Bill Welch


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Tony Thompson
 

Bill Welch wrote:

 

This is the kind of subject I think would be an interesting article for the Ed and Pat at RP CYC to tackle.


       Full agreement, Bill, but I'm afraid they are about burned out on RPCYC and are winding it down.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Bill Welch
 

This is the kind of subject I think would be an interesting article for the Ed and Pat at RP CYC to tackle.

Bill Welch


Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <rdkirkham@...> wrote :

Richard comments:

“Note the unusual early Dreadnaught 3/3/3 ends with ribs that taper towards
the face of the car end with a flat, angled face, rather than the rounded
surfaces and filleted edges of most dreadnaught ends.”

So it appears that Richard was of the view these were not a transitional
design that anticipated the rounded corner ends, but instead an early
design.

I think more work dating the various car ends is required here.

Rob Kirkham
==============

Rob, I agree. Since my brief search did not find any "outie" ends with round rib ends that predate these, only "innie" ends, I am of the opinion that the ends on the 1927 CB&Q car are the first iteration of ends with outward projecting ribs, and were not numerous, although there is a second example in the same book;the unusual flat flare at the end of the ribs just barely show in a photo of Rock Island 159029 on page 53, also a 40' auto car, but date of construction not given. Can anyone provide the built date?

At any rate, this configuration seems unrelated to the transition to the round corner end for W section corner posts that was introduced about 1937.

Dennis Storzek


Pere Marquette freight car book

ed_mines
 

Being sold on e bay, auction soon to end, now at low price.


Ed Mines


Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

Robert kirkham
 

Interesting work Dennis.

I had a look at Richard Hendrickson’s "Focus on Freight Cars, volume one:
Single Sheathed box and automobile cars". Many nice examples of ends with
the ribs showing rounded ends are to be found on the cover and within the
book. This includes ends with the ribs facing inward as well as out.

But when I came to page 19, the example of CB&Q 49100 is markedly different,
showing the broad flare at the ends of the ribs. Unlike some other
examples, this car shows wonderful consistency of shape. These were cars
from 1927, with re-building “in the early 30’s”. Replacement ends are not
mentioned, so I assume those in the photo are from 1927. I wonder if
anyone has earlier photos of this series before rebuilding to check that out
against?

Richard comments:

“Note the unusual early Dreadnaught 3/3/3 ends with ribs that taper towards
the face of the car end with a flat, angled face, rather than the rounded
surfaces and filleted edges of most dreadnaught ends.”

So it appears that Richard was of the view these were not a transitional
design that anticipated the rounded corner ends, but instead an early
design.

I think more work dating the various car ends is required here.

Rob Kirkham


From: destorzek@mchsi.com [STMFC]
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 2:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Dreadnaught ends - shape of ends of ribs

---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <destorzek@...> wrote :

It occurs to me that these changes would have been happening during the
period that the 1932 ARA car was in production, and the width of the car
changed during this same period. I'm going to spend some time looking
through Ted Culotta's book on the 1932 car to see if the ribs changed at the same time.

==============

I finally caught up with my copy of Culotta's book on the 1932 ARA cars.
Unfortunately, it doesn't add much clarity on the evolution of the
Dreadnaught end. The early cars had the same well defined ribs and darts as
the ends used on the single sheathed cars that preceded them. Ted has
reproduced a builders photo of the prototype ARA 1 interior before the
lining was applied that does a good job of showing the shape of the
pressings (page 41).

Later cars, however, have ends with ribs and darts having very inconsistent
shape, often different apparent shapes on different ribs on the same end.
Some photos appear to show wrinkles in the steel sheet radiating out from
the rib terminations (page 96). These all seem to be from production around
1936 - '37, right on the eve of the introduction of the round corner end for
use with the W corner post. It occurs to me that SRECo. may have done some
redesign of the stamping dies to make the center sections compatible with
the new round corner end, possibly with the intention of changing them over
to stamp round corner ends if the new design gained widespread acceptance,
which it did. The round corner end introduced the broad flare at the ends of
the ribs where they continue around the curve.

Looking for other possible sources of information, I looked through Art
Million's Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars, because of the excellent
photo reproduction in that book. Unfortunately, all the PM's square cornered
cars had "inverse" ends, but I did run into an interesting photo that
illustrates my comments about imperfections in stamping dies; on page 88 is
a photo of an end stamped with a die where the sections that made the
central parallel edged ribs didn't line up with the sections that make the
tapered sections, putting a noticeable jog in some ribs. While I know these
kind of things happen, this is the first time I've found a photo that
illustrates it on a Dreadnaught end.

Dennis Storzek


Re: New Member and some questions?

David
 

"The text and drawings both specify a 9" ship builder's channel for the front and back sills of the frame.  Yet when I look at all the prototype photos I can find of this car, they do not seem to have any front or back sill.  There is only a corner bracket that ties the side sills to the back that also has a poll pocket.  Were any cars actually built with the 9" back sill?  Or was this a change to the specifications?"

AC&F built a single sample double-sheathed car with the separate end sill, but all other cars (single and double) were built without it. The plans for the USRA all-steel box show the revised end arrangement.

David Thompson


N-scale Atlas/Rivarossi Wooden Boxcar

martinskrz@...
 

Hi All,

Is there a prototype for the old Atlas wooden (outside frames,steel ends, steel door) boxcar made in N-scale by Rivarossi.

Thanks and best regards,

Martin Skrzetuszewski

(London, England)


Report on using my new Tamiya Tweezers

Bill Welch
 

I just wanted to report that the Tamiya Tweezers with the narrow points that I purchased recently via Amazon and that came from Hong Kong have easily met or exceeded my expectations in there ability to pick up and firmly grasp very small items like wire sections. Great tool and one of my best purchases and purchase experiences.

Bill Welch


Re: New Member and some questions?

Benjamin Hom
 



Al Westerfield wrote:
"As I recall the first issue of Mainline Modeler had accurate plans for the car and may be available on line.  Citation needed."

"USRA Single-Sheathed Boxcar", text by James Lane with drawing by Robert Hundman, Mainline Modeler, July 1980.

The plans may be accurate, but do not trust any of the lettering diagrams for either the single-sheathed or double-sheathed cars.


Ben Hom


Re: New Member and some questions?

 

This assumption led several manufacturers to issue cars faithful to the published plan but inaccurate versus the cars as built.  As I recall the first issue of Mainline Modeler had accurate plans for the car and may be available on line.  Citation needed. – Al Westerfield
 

Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 11:00 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Member and some questions?
 
 



---In STMFC@..., wrote :

"...first car I am working with is the USRA 40/50 ton single sheathed box car.  I am primarily working from the very helpful specification article from the Vol 90, #4 Railway Mechanical Engineer.  But here is my first question.  The text and drawings both specify a 9" ship builder's channel for the front and back sills of the frame.  Yet when I look at all the prototype photos I can find of this car, they do not seem to have any front or back sill.  There is only a corner bracket that ties the side sills to the back that also has a poll pocket.  Were any cars actually built with the 9" back sill?  Or was this a change to the specifications?"

That is called an "end sill." It is one of the best known illustrations as to why one can't rely 100% on engineering drawings published with articles describing soon to be built cars. Changes are made between publication and production, and usually don't even rate a follow-up article. In the case of the USRA single sheathed car, those same drawings were published for another twenty years without correction. Photos are always the best source when there is question like this; photos show what was actually built.

"A second somewhat trivial questions has to do with the floor boards.  The bottom of the tongued and grooved floor was a flat surface, yet it sat on a frame that had many small bumps and rises (rivets, uneven heights of cover plates, etc.).  Were these variations simply ignored and the floor boards just attached to the frame or was there some sort of shimming done to keep everything flat."

Or the boards were notched for the rivets. Or both. You have to get pretty far down into the assembly level drawings before things like shims are called out. Sometimes it is possible to deduce things by inspection; if the tops of the side sills and floor stringers form a straight line that would clear the rivet heads, there is your answer. The only remaining question is whether a shim was used on the center sill cover plate to support the floor mid span. Close inspection of a sectional drawing that shows the flooring should answer that.

Keep in mind there are likely many more drawings of USRA cars preserved than have been published. Pullman built may of the USRA cars, and the Pullman drawing collection has been preserved at the Illinois Railway museum, along with parts of the Haskell & Barker and Standard Steel car drawings, both of which also built some USRA cars.

Here is contact info:
Illinois Railway Museum - Pullman Library

The curator's name is Ted Anderson.

Dennis Storzek


 


Re: New Member and some questions?

Jack Mullen
 

To add to Dennis's excellent answer, there's still an end sill, but instead of being a 9" channel placed at the same height as the side sills, it was changed to a lighter angle section, and placed above the level of side and center sills. The bottom flange of the end sill is on top of the top flange of the side sill, and the vertical flange is against the inside face of the Murphy end, which is riveted to it, as you see in photos.

This change in end sill design was an evolutionary step in steel freight car design.


Jack Mullen


Re: Sunshine Ins help

Pierre Oliver
 

THanks Paul
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 17/05/2015 12:26 PM, 'Paul Koehler' koehlers@... [STMFC] wrote:

�

Pierre:

�

I just sent you the six sheets for instructions and PDS.

�

Paul C. Koehler

�


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 7:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Ins help

�

�

Morning all,
I have a Sunshine 18.1 Erie '37 AAR boxcar here lacking instructions and
PDS.
Can someone scan and email me a copy of both?
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com



Re: Sunshine Ins help

Paul Koehler
 

Pierre:

 

I just sent you the six sheets for instructions and PDS.

 

Paul C. Koehler

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 7:45 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Ins help

 

 

Morning all,
I have a Sunshine 18.1 Erie '37 AAR boxcar here lacking instructions and
PDS.
Can someone scan and email me a copy of both?
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com


Re: Sunshine Ins help

Pierre Oliver
 

Thanks Clark,
You're a big help.

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 17/05/2015 11:52 AM, Clark Cooper csc@... [STMFC] wrote:

�

Pierre,

I've got that one. I'll dig it out and scan them. If anybody else needs them, let me know.

-Clark Cooper
(The other Iowa Clark)

On May 17, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Pierre Oliver pierre.oliver@... [STMFC] wrote:

> Morning all,
> I have a Sunshine 18.1 Erie '37 AAR boxcar here lacking instructions and
> PDS.
> Can someone scan and email me a copy of both?
> Thanks
>
> --
> Pierre Oliver
> www.elgincarshops.com
> www.yarmouthmodelworks.com



Re: New Member and some questions?

Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <jayrs9@...> wrote :

"...first car I am working with is the USRA 40/50 ton single sheathed box car.  I am primarily working from the very helpful specification article from the Vol 90, #4 Railway Mechanical Engineer.  But here is my first question.  The text and drawings both specify a 9" ship builder's channel for the front and back sills of the frame.  Yet when I look at all the prototype photos I can find of this car, they do not seem to have any front or back sill.  There is only a corner bracket that ties the side sills to the back that also has a poll pocket.  Were any cars actually built with the 9" back sill?  Or was this a change to the specifications?"

That is called an "end sill." It is one of the best known illustrations as to why one can't rely 100% on engineering drawings published with articles describing soon to be built cars. Changes are made between publication and production, and usually don't even rate a follow-up article. In the case of the USRA single sheathed car, those same drawings were published for another twenty years without correction. Photos are always the best source when there is question like this; photos show what was actually built.

"A second somewhat trivial questions has to do with the floor boards.  The bottom of the tongued and grooved floor was a flat surface, yet it sat on a frame that had many small bumps and rises (rivets, uneven heights of cover plates, etc.).  Were these variations simply ignored and the floor boards just attached to the frame or was there some sort of shimming done to keep everything flat."

Or the boards were notched for the rivets. Or both. You have to get pretty far down into the assembly level drawings before things like shims are called out. Sometimes it is possible to deduce things by inspection; if the tops of the side sills and floor stringers form a straight line that would clear the rivet heads, there is your answer. The only remaining question is whether a shim was used on the center sill cover plate to support the floor mid span. Close inspection of a sectional drawing that shows the flooring should answer that.

Keep in mind there are likely many more drawings of USRA cars preserved than have been published. Pullman built may of the USRA cars, and the Pullman drawing collection has been preserved at the Illinois Railway museum, along with parts of the Haskell & Barker and Standard Steel car drawings, both of which also built some USRA cars.

Here is contact info:
Illinois Railway Museum - Pullman Library

The curator's name is Ted Anderson.

Dennis Storzek




Re: Sunshine Ins help

Clark Cooper
 

Pierre,

I've got that one. I'll dig it out and scan them. If anybody else needs them, let me know.

-Clark Cooper
(The other Iowa Clark)

On May 17, 2015, at 9:44 AM, Pierre Oliver pierre.oliver@elgincarshops.com [STMFC] wrote:

Morning all,
I have a Sunshine 18.1 Erie '37 AAR boxcar here lacking instructions and
PDS.
Can someone scan and email me a copy of both?
Thanks

--
Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

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